19 replies to this topic

[Dalthalion]

http://forums.lotro....003#post6072003

Translation:  If Sting glows, every weapon in Middle-earth should.

Players:  It's not necessarily that they do; it's just how they do.

[Knowfere]

If the weapons and such only glowed when enemies were around, like Sting did, I wouldn't have a problem with it. As it is, my burglar just got a new LI last night and it's ....Fugly! and the constant glow just makes it worse and draws attention to it's fuglyness....

[Darmokk]

There really is no technical reason why they can't allow us to turn off things like weapons glow, glowing hands, bubbles and similar garbage in our own clients. The server doesn't care whether the client displays it or not.

[The MMO Troll]

I'm sorry, but I would like to hear of these VFX other weapons in Tolkien's works had, besides Sting. I don't recall a single other weapon that glowed or did anything showy. Many were spoken of as being special, perhaps even Legendary, but none to my knowledge except for Sting glowed.

This is a case where Vastin should have given examples of these weapons with VFX from Tolkien's works, because otherwise I think he is dead wrong.

[Dalthalion]

The one that I have read about that have some glow or aura to them are very old and of Elven or Dwarven craft.  For example:

- Andúril, reforged by the Elves of Imladris from the shards of Narsil, which was, in turn, forged by the Dwarf, Telchar of Nogrod, in Beleriand

Quote

Charging from the side, they hurled themselves upon the wild men.  Andúril rose and fell, gleaming with white fire. A shout went up from wall and tower: 'Andúril! Andúril goes to war. The Blade that was Broken shines again!'....

- Glamdring, forged during the First Age in Gondolin

Quote

Then Gandalf lit up his wand. Of course it was Gandalf;  but  just then they were  too busy to ask how he got there. He took out his  sword  again, and  again it flashed in the dark by itself. It burned with a  rage  that  made it gleam if goblins were about; now it was bright as blue  flame   for delight in the killing of the great lord of the cave. It made no   trouble  whatever of cutting through the goblin-chains and setting all  the  prisoners  free as quickly as possible. This sword's name was Glamdring the Foe-hammer, if you remember.

- Orcrist, also of Gondolin

Quote

Upon his tomb the Elvenking then laid Orcrist, the elvish sword that had  been taken from Thorin in captivity. It is said in songs that it  gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached, and the fortress of the  dwarves could not be taken by surprise.

- and, of course, Sting, also of Gondolin

Quote

Then Frodo's heart flamed within him, and without thinking what he did,  whether it was folly or despair or courage, he took the Phial in his  left hand, and with his right hand drew his sword. Sting flashed out,  and the sharp elven-blade sparkled in the silver light, but at its edges  a blue fire flicked.

[The MMO Troll]

Well, that makes sense, then. Four legendary weapons glow or burn or whatever, so all weapons should have the opportunity to do so. Much like there are only a few wizards in Middle Earth, so Turbine chokes the land with LMs and RKs.

I still think weapons players have should not have visual effects, perhaps unless they are 1st Age Legendaries. To do otherwise takes away some of the wonder those truly Legendary weapons Tolkien wrote of had.

[Froste]

…and there are more examples of glowing weapons I guess like Anglachel and Ringil but to say that the “majority” of Tolkien’s weapons featured VFX seems like a gross exaggeration or at least a grave misunderstanding.

I would like to propose a theory  - only outstanding high-elven blades have special light effects!  

Why ‘outstanding’? I only know of very high profiled blades that glowed but please correct me on this if I’m wrong. Also, the Goblins even named two of them, Beater and Biter, (how the hell they knew about them is another issue) they didn’t say ‘elven blades’ in general.

Why ‘blades’? Of all axes, spears and bows that have featured in the lore I can’t remember one with any glowing/sparkling effects. Would fit in well also with the classical view of blades as being more noble and royal.

Why ‘forged by high-elves’? Well the examples all relate to such blades. Anduril yes when reforged by elves but not in its earlier form as Narsil.

/waiting for lore experts to start tearing this theory apart

PS And the effects on the LIs are of course ridiculously exaggerated, nuf said!

[AgamemnonV1]

His argument is backwards. The only weapons that "glowed" or "shined" were legendary weapons--weapons of reputed lore that were forged thousands of years ago by Elven and/or Dwarven smiths of great renown.

My Third Age sword shines and glows, but I throw it away every time the level cap is increased. When did Gandalf throw away Glamdring? He's had it for over seventy years now. Even when he "leveled up" to Gandalf the White he still kept Glamdring.

Every time they examine their own work, they ignore that they never bothered to go back and fix what people have been asking them to fix since it came out. I still don't know why they are called legendary weapons if we're just going to throw them away every six months or so.

[Laurinaohtar]

Had LI's "grown with you" as described when they were first announced then he's argument would have some merit. As Legendary Items are so disposable though I'm afraid they are little more than plain old loot.

[The Bohunk]

It's just another grind. With their new-found penchant for radical class revamps (and the resulting often radical legacy changes), they'd never be able to adhere to them "growing with us" without a complete and radical overhaul of the system. I just don't ever see that happening even though it's a major game mechanic.

I do think alot of people took Seefel's wayback quote out of context. They were his words, sure, but people took them and kind of ran with them. Needless to say, I think they have made them far less of an excersise in frustration than they were the first couple years they were around. My Burg got his First Age dagger 2-1/2 months ago and will be using it until the next cap increase. That's going to be at least 9 months of use out of a weapon - and in all that time, I can prepare to make sure I have the legs ready to make the next one when cap increases (assuming the system stays largely the same, which is far from a given). I don't mind that so much, but right, it's not very legendary.

A nice addition would be if they tied some kind of counter to them the way they do with IXP, but without such a quickly-attainable cap - a stat that would continue to grow with the weapon (or even player, independent of weapon) beyond the IXP-related points-cap for legacy allotment. The other stat could have ranks that apply a multiplier to each legacy in increments of "x"% or something. It could be like infamy/reknown in scale and require an insane amount of grinding (years) to eventually cap. But at least it would be something that grew with us. "Legendary expertise" if you will...

One of my kinmates came up with an LI system years ago that I thought had alot of merit. Coincidence or not, they have incorporated a few of his ideas. But Turbine obviously feels the need to revamp areas 3-4 times and completely overhaul specific classes rather than take a good hard look at a game system that every long-term player will likely use regularly. They also would not likely be able to reap so many Store profits from an item that grows with you. If they did, it would possibly be akin to selling rank-required skills to any old creep with an income....and wouldn't that be heinous.  

[Froste]

Now, I'm the last to defend the current LI system - the very though of people running around with 1st and 2nd agers makes me sick to my heart - not to mention throwing them away on a regular basis like last years cellphone. However, it seems like the original "please allow us to turn off the glow"-thread  that got turned into a "look how insensitive Turbine are to customer feed-back"-thread now has morphed into yet another "bash the LI implementation and grind"-thread...

So, back on topic; Yes - Turbine doesn't get it. Yes - I would like to be able to turn this effect off but hey, then I have a long list of other good candidates such as spell/skill effects from runekeepers, loremasters and most other classes as well ...

... then again, I'm not very logical since I do enjoy having the minstrels' glowing hands back

PS Agamemnon, you said that "The only weapons that "glowed" or "shined" were legendary weapons--weapons of reputed lore that were forged thousands of years ago by Elven and/or DWARVEN smiths of great renown." Which dwarven forged weapons were you thinking of? Not trolling, just curious to learn if there were any such.

[Dalthalion]

Helloooo.  Narsil was forged by a Dwarf of Nogrod in the First Age.  I just said so up there.

And that brings up a viable point.  From what we read in Tolkien's works, weapons with an origin in the First Age - of Elven or Dwarven manufacture - are the only ones that have a glow/aura effect.  So, Turbine should really limit those visual effects to such weapons in the game.

[Froste]

Haloo. Yes I did read your post but I don't think you read mine If I don't misunderstand you your reference was to Anduril not Narsil. Have you got a reference stating that also Narsil glowed before the handy elves reforged it?

EDIT: Yes, lorewise it would seem appropriate to remove the glow from all non-blades but seriously, does anyone think that Turbine would risk pissing off all those bowmen and wielders of halberds?

[Dalthalion]

"The Blade that was Broken shines again!'"

That's part of my post.

Of course, if you need more proof ...

Quote

…and the sword of Elendil filled Orcs and Men with fear, for it shone  with the light of the sun and of the moon, and it was named Narsil.

... and ...

Quote

At his council, Elrond says of the sword, "But Narsil was broken and its  light extinguished, and it has not yet been forged again."

[Froste]

Point taken, thanks!

[AgamemnonV1]

Froste, on 27 March 2012 - 16:14, said:

PS Agamemnon, you said that "The only weapons that "glowed" or "shined" were legendary weapons--weapons of reputed lore that were forged thousands of years ago by Elven and/or DWARVEN smiths of great renown." Which dwarven forged weapons were you thinking of? Not trolling, just curious to learn if there were any such.

I was thinking primarily about the Nauglamir.

I also don't think it's far-fetched. In the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, the Dwarves are the only ones able to withstand and fight Glaurung.

[Raedwulf]

Point quibbled with... Actually, when I saw the thread I immediately thought of Orcrist, Glamdring, & Sting. I'd forgotten about Anduril, but I'm not convinced by the quoted passage either. Here's why...

Glamdring & Sting both glow for a specific reason - the presence of orc-kind. In fact, in Riddles In The Dark, there is the suggestion that the intensity of the glow is proportionate to the presence, and also that elf-blades, in general, glow. However there is an equally strong suggestion that that is only true if they had been made "for the goblin wars of which so many songs had sung." So yes, I can agree with First Age weapons, but it must be broadened to elven weapons. The passage includes the term "an elven blade", which cannot be used to determine whether Tolkien meant only swords e.g. leaf spears are bladed. I suggest it is likely to be poetic rather than literal, so no firm judgement can be made.

However, I don't buy into your Orcrist quote, Dal. We know that it's a sister blade of Glamdring. Therefore it glows in the presence of orc-kind, no problem. "It is said in songs that... Nah, sorry, all foes? Blatantly poetic licence; he's admitted it straight away. So I'll stick with glowing in the presence of orc-kind.

Then there's Anduril. I would be leaning heavily on the "poetic licence" argument again, except for one thing. The Wiki entry on Narsil has this to say, Some passages in Tolkien's writings... imply or indicate that Narsil/Andúril glowed, similarly to Sting and Glamdring. However, Andúril was Dwarven-made rather than Elven-made, so unlike Sting and Glamdring, Narsil/Andúril did not glow blue in the presence of Orcs. Rather, it glowed with a red light in sunlight, and a white light in moonlight. However, most of the quotes given are of the "like" type - it glowed "like" a flame, etc. That's poetic licence and comes down to how literally you want to take the Prof's word.

However, there's also this, in that Wiki article - "Tolkien confirms that this glow was not simply due to reflection or polishing in a private letter, where he describes Andúril as glowing with an "elvish light". So, yes, Anduril does glow, but I suggest we cannot be sure what effect the breaking has had. It did not glow like an elven blade does before it was broken. The quotes concerning the use of Anduril (i.e. in Aragorn's hand), I do not find convincing as evidence; too much possibility of storyteller's exagerration. So is Tolkien referring to the time before it was broken, does it not glow after the reforging & he's just being poetic, or has the reforging changed the way it glows?

The whole argument here has a problem anyway...

Fact: We know that weapons of the First Age, of dwarvish or elvish manufacture, can be made to glow.
Fact: We know that much knowledge survived the destruction of Beleriand. Celebrimbor & others; Khazad-dum was scarcely touched in the First Age and, it is reasonable to suppose, as the first & greatest dwarf home, the lore there would be at least the equal of any other; never mind the fact they took in the survivors of Belegost, the neighbour of Telchar's Nogrod.
Fact: The Smiths of Hollin were active well into the Second Age, & Khazad-dum well into the Third.

Supposition: I can't think of a single magical item in any fantasy or mythological setting that does not "die" when it is broken. Ergo, if you take a "biblical" view of LOTR & take it that Anduril is glowing, it must be by virtue of its elvish re-forging, and therefore the elves of Rivendell, at least, in the late Third Age have also retained this knowledge.

Conclusion: Much as I hate to agree with Vastin, because my gut feeling is against it, making a glowing weapon is a not much greater feat than making a magical weapon in the first place, and that knowledge is available to dwarves & elves both, well into the Third Age. Although his claim that Tolkien practically invented glowing swords, I think, is complete cobblers. I'm sure that idea has been around for an awfully long time. I can't think of any direct evidence, but Tolkien created very little; he just rearranged an awful lot...

Incidentally, there's one other weapon listed as glowing ("glittering like ice with a pale light") , and that's Ringil, a sword of Fingolfin.

[Jackalope]

Speaking hypothetically since we are dealing with fantasy, if a dwarven blade was broken and reforged by elven smiths, would it not take on qualities that elven smiths impart to their own blades? A sort of melding/joining between dwarf and elf, with the human being the bridge between them. Can you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth? I'm not trying to read into Tolkien, but there is something to be said about the allegory of a weapon that is forged  and then re-forged by two races with a long history of slight animosity being wielded by a human king.

[Raedwulf]

That's exactly what I'm saying with my supposition, Jacka (although the human doesn't have anything to do with the shining of the blade).

[Hrodberht]

Knowfere, on 27 March 2012 - 00:01, said:

If the weapons and such only glowed when enemies were around, like Sting did, I wouldn't have a problem with it. As it is, my burglar just got a new LI last night and it's ....Fugly! and the constant glow just makes it worse and draws attention to it's fuglyness....

Before LIs, weapons that had bonus damage to a particular enemy type did in fact glow blue when that enemy type was near.  In fact, fairly recently, when I had an Elven Dead reaver title on my halberd, it would glow blue in the presence of the Dead, which was rather amusing when I had an Oathbreaker Herald out.