134 replies to this topic

[montyburns]

I'm not sure how many saw the now closed thread about the 'Soliders of Christ' kinship  -

http://forums.lotro....s-names-allowed

Anyway, I have a profound dislike for anyone who is motivated by going around trying to push religion on others, especially children. So after the thread was closed I went and checked their website -

http://www.lotro.teamsoc.net/

And part of their homepage statement is - "Soldiers of Christ is an online gaming community committed to spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ through video games"

And from their code of conduct - "Advertise the group to those outside of the kinship. Try to find recruits! Also, do not hesitate to give testimony to our Savior", also "If others outside of the kinship asks you for help view it as a chance to witness to others."

I couldn't give a shit about the infraction, but I don't want the God squad looking for 'new blood' and preaching to my kids about their particular brand of salvation anywhere, let alone in a game they play. If they want to find out about God, they can do so in church and at school.

Anyway, needless to say my more polite version of my above points on the official forum about not wanting my kids preached to, was removed, and I was of course infracted by Sap for 'mentioning religion'.

The irony is that the Soldiers of Christ kinship CoC actually encourages their members to break the game CoC, yet I'm not able to warn others on the official forum - should people want to keep their kids away from them, or in game no doubt because discussing religion is against the CoC. Wonderful eh.

[Jackalope]

This is where you run into trouble. If you try to report it to Sap in a PM, and he fancies himself a member of the God squad himself, he'll likely ignore you anyway, though at the least he should be going into the game and forcing a name change on the kin at any rate since it can be offensive to members of other religions. Imagine the outcry that could occur from Muslims, who have long memories of the Crusades. Assuming Muslims are allowed to even use the internet to play LOTRO.

The idea is to avoid doing anything that could offend, even if the subject merits discussion. This is how ideas are stamped down. In fact, the early church used similar tactics to silence great thinkers like Copernicus. Politically correct behavior is just a pseudonym for censure. If you have religious freedom, then it should actually be freedom in practice, not just in print.  Though I wonder why they'd be playing an MMO, since the time for games has past and it's time to be adults now, paraphrasing the Bible.

This is why I find it a bit stupid to limit discussion topics, since for the most part, mob rule applies and if most people are in favor of the subject, it matters not who it offends. And, it's hard for Christians to be offensive if they actually practice what they preach, the Bible has a lot of restrictions on the ways they can speak to people, unless you're talking the members of the Westboro Baptist Church or other flakes who pay the religion lip service. If people turn you down you're supposed to just walk away, not name call, rant about God hating you, or scream about your never ending torment that awaits you in Hell, or heckle people who just suffered a death in the family. Those guys are lucky they haven't been shot yet by someone even more flakier than they are. After all, none of them are God, so they can hardly know what's going to happen anyway. And this is from someone who was raised Catholic, and hasn't stepped foot into churches in any regular form for years, mainly due to the ever present hypocrisy, and so called church leaders just like those people in Westboro. I'd even go so far as to claim they are just as fanatic and brainwashing as Middle East terrorists are with their own kids.

Even the most basic naming convention in the game suggests keeping it lore worthy, and AFAIK, Jesus never set foot in Middle Earth. Mind you, I have some characters in a kin called Godlike Crown, but the title is vague enough it could apply to deities in Middle Earth. If it had been forceful, I'd never have bothered with it. I wouldn't report it, since I don't find it offensive, but if someone did, then they have that right to complain. Just like when we complain about names that are veiled sexual references. The way I see it, if you can't use the name of the Muslim prophet in a kin title, neither should you use ANY deity name/title unless it is wholly contrived or isn't lending itself to readily be interpreted to be referring to an actual religion.

I think you got hosed, he could have just let you off with a warning, since the forum IS for posting complaints if properly worded, and at least it wasn't a Turbine sucks post.

[Tanith]

Hmm, interesting.  I recently made a sarcastic post referring to "Update 666" and got negative rep for it...the anonymous person who -repped me stated I was "making fun of others' religious beliefs".

I shrugged it off at the time, but mayhap I really offended somebody?

[Doro]

I honestly can't believe that there are some people so brainwashed by nonsense that they would actively use it to surround everything they do e.g. making a religious kin on a game.

[montyburns]

Any opportunity to recruit new members to the flock is justified it would seem. On a less serious note, it doesn't sound like much fun being in a christian kin. I have visions of them aggroing the mobs, then turning the other cheek, forgiving them and gathering round the campfire to sign hymns whilst quoting passages from the bible and praying for their salvation. Eventually, even the mobs will end up reporting them to the GMs just to make them go away

[The MMO Troll]

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I am a pagan. And I know damn well that if I ever tried to have a kinship or guild in an MMORPG named Gaia's Soldiers or the like, it would get slapped down faster than you can say "Jesus Saves". Why? Because many of the same people who are trying to evangelize on video games like the Soldiers of Christ would report any other kinship/guild that looked like it might be related to a non-Christian religion.

It is stupid.
It is wrong.
Religion has no place in an MMORPG.

Normally I wouldn't even bring my beliefs up in a forum like this, but considering the subject matter I felt is warranted.

[Doro]

As in full on, actually believe in multiple gods sort of pagan? Or the kind that doesn't believe in them and likes the concept?

[The MMO Troll]

Doro, on 15 April 2012 - 11:53, said:

As in full on, actually believe in multiple gods sort of pagan? Or the kind that doesn't believe in them and likes the concept?

Full-on Pagan. Well, Eclectic Wiccan, to be specific.

"Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1950"

Yes, that Wicca.

Seriously.

But I digress.

[Doro]

Jedi for the win.

[montyburns]

I'm ashamed to say I don't know much about Wicca, being from the UK. But the original Wickerman film is in my opinion, one on the greatest movies of all time. Edward Woodward's finest hour as Sgt Howie. Unlike the fetid dross that was the Nick Cage remake :S

[Doro]

montyburns, on 15 April 2012 - 12:15, said:

I'm ashamed to say I don't know much about Wicca, being from the UK. But the original Wickerman film is in my opinion, one on the greatest movies of all time. Edward Woodward's finest hour as Sgt Howie. Unlike the fetid dross that was the Nick Cage remake :S

Wicca was made in the UK. Just goes to show how much of a hold it had over what is a fairly un-religious nation. Then again, America does like to jump on these sort of things. Just look at these atheist rallies they have.

[montyburns]

Doro, on 15 April 2012 - 12:31, said:

Wicca was made in the UK. Just goes to show how much of a hold it had over what is a fairly un-religious nation. Then again, America does like to jump on these sort of things. Just look at these atheist rallies they have.

Yeah, I live out near pendle witch country and my local town is full of 'wicca' shops. I'm sure it's a completely bastardised version and probably has not much at all to do with wicca in reality, but it seems to be what the tourists want. On another note, I'm not suprised they've all converged on Lotro, I wouldn't want to play 'the bible game' either

[Spidey]

The name of the kin violates the CoC, plain and simple. You cannot use proper names of historical or literary figues. Christ fits in both catagories for some and only one for others. I assume upper management is afraid of rustling feathers of certain American groups. I wonder how far I'd get with a Soldiers of Satan kin that dedicated itself to spreading the word of Satanism. Probably earn me a lifetime ban even though its a religion like any other according to U.S. laws

[Tanith]

Spidey, on 15 April 2012 - 17:12, said:

The name of the kin violates the CoC, plain and simple. You cannot use proper names of historical or literary figues. Christ fits in both catagories for some and only one for others. I assume upper management is afraid of rustling feathers of certain American groups. I wonder how far I'd get with a Soldiers of Satan kin that dedicated itself to spreading the word of Satanism. Probably earn me a lifetime ban even though its a religion like any other according to U.S. laws

As in fictional characters?  Because if so both Ghraye Mouser, my burglar, and Grannie Weatherwax, my runekeeper, are in violation.

[LordVorontur]

Doro, on 15 April 2012 - 12:01, said:

Jedi for the win.

Same here! May the Force be with you!

montyburns, on 15 April 2012 - 12:47, said:

Yeah, I live out near pendle witch country and my local town is full of 'wicca' shops. I'm sure it's a completely bastardised version and probably has not much at all to do with wicca in reality, but it seems to be what the tourists want. On another note, I'm not suprised they've all converged on Lotro, I wouldn't want to play 'the bible game' either

Pendle Hell, lol!
That's not too far away from me, lol.
Isn't the A666 near there as well?

[Jedy2]

Doro, on 15 April 2012 - 12:01, said:

Jedy for the win.

There, fixed it for you.


Private is private, and though aggressive acquisitionists abound, they should be banned.

[montyburns]

LordVorontur, on 15 April 2012 - 23:52, said:

Same here! May the Force be with you!

Pendle Hell, lol!
That's not too far away from me, lol.
Isn't the A666 near there as well?

That's the one. The old devils highway. Runs from Pendlebury to somewhere past Blackburn. The death valley section over the moors is still notorious for bad accidents, it's not somewhere you want to be breaking down at 3am either

[AgamemnonV1]

Right, so back to the topic at hand...

"Warning" people of a kinship isn't going to fly, regardless of what the kin is about. It's unfounded mostly because you have no proof and you're calling people out specifically (again, another ToS violation).

Their kinship website is offsite, which means Turbine can't use it as far as accountability goes.

All you can do is report their behavior in-game if they ever seem like they are proselytizing. Or you do what every other person does when they come across something they don't like; you put them on your ignore list.

Other than that, seems like it was justified. Just need to keep calm and carry on.

[montyburns]

I don't really care if they try preaching at me, I'll just treat them the same way as those that knock on my door. But it's not really myself I'm concerned about. I just don't like the idea of my kids accepting an offer for help, then being preached to. There's enough to worry about these days without the bible bashers getting in on the act. I've warned my kids about it, but some of these religious types can be pretty devious with their recruitment methods. But I'm sure what you say about offsite accountability is correct, sadly ( although I dare say if a kin was setup with the intention of gold selling / hacking / exploiting and it was being promoted all over their site as a kin motto, Turbine might be a little more quick to do something ). It just annoys me at the depths they'll stoop to grow their flock. Of course, I'm sure they'd say they were just 'spreading the good news of Christs love' or some other similar bollocks

[Doro]

I actually invite those that knock on my door into my house. They're often surprised but I do enjoy a 'debate' with them. Takes them at least 3 return visits before they decide I'm a lost cause or they seriously question their own faith. Sometimes it's just because they've been raised in that religion or they don't actually know the facts before they made their choice.