27 replies to this topic

[Jrdp]

I put the copy of the text i put into Lotro forums (i known, i bet for a ban xD)

But in the end, if Turbine want to fulfill european laws he must abide and allow the resale of lotro accounts.

http://forums.lotro....t-rule-about-it

Quote

Today the European Court rule that is ilegal for a company to not allow to an user to sell again a digital item:

“an author of software cannot oppose the resale of his ‘used’ licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internet”

http://curia.europa.....cp120094en.pdf (summary)
http://curia.europa....sf?num=C-128/11 (full documents)

That left void at least in europe all the agreements that the Eula could contain about it and force Turbine to allow the resale of lotro accounts.

And in the wording the rule is clear as whater about it:

“Therefore, even if the licence agreement prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy. “

The question to Turbine its easy:
Is going Turbine to comply with this new european legislation and allow the private resale of the accounts of Lotro?

[Darmokk]

I'm not sure the rule is so broad as to include pure online games.

This was concerned with locally installed software where Oracle had re-worded the license to look like a lease but with no technical reason for it, and that trick has been thrown out.

[The MMO Troll]

Darmokk, on 05 July 2012 - 12:38, said:

I'm not sure the rule is so broad as to include pure online games.

This was concerned with locally installed software where Oracle had re-worded the license to look like a lease but with no technical reason for it, and that trick has been thrown out.

Well, since this potentially affects many more gaming companies than just Turbine, I expect they will challenge the law if it is used against them through one of their industry groups.

[Darmokk]

The MMO Troll, on 05 July 2012 - 13:06, said:

Well, since this potentially affects many more gaming companies than just Turbine, I expect they will challenge the law if it is used against them through one of their industry groups.

It's not a new law. It is a ruling based on established law.

[Maelendil]

Darmokk, on 05 July 2012 - 12:38, said:

I'm not sure the rule is so broad as to include pure online games.

This was concerned with locally installed software where Oracle had re-worded the license to look like a lease but with no technical reason for it, and that trick has been thrown out.

That was my first reaction, exactly. In lotro the client software is free, so reselling it is of little use. The account is for login purpose, and therefore it is potentially legally different. We will have to see how this plays out in courts, but I do not expect anyone to change their policies on this topic anytime soon.

I've read the thread on the official server now, it looks like we may have a shot at reselling xpacs bought with real money (not TP) and lifetime VIP accounts. That would be a good news, but I expect Turbine to ask for a sale declaration, and wipe all the game-won content (such as toons and gold etc.). This might also push Turbine to a new "TP only" selling method, as you cannot argue that buying TPs are like buying a license to anything.

On a more general note, this is bad for F2P games and good for monthly subscriptions: even if you can sell your account, you would still have to pay for the subscription. Say for example that I want to sell my SWTOR account, I can sell it but at most for as much as a new account (assuming the sale has to be notified to the game company, who will then proceed to remove everything which has not been sold by the company, i.e. toons, gold, etc.). The loss for the company is not nearly as important as when someone sells a lotro account with isengard's legendary edition and all the resulting quest packs.

[Darmokk]

It simply means that you cannot pretend that your software that is clearly bought for a one-time fee and runs autonomously on your computer is rented by simply putting some legal gibberish into the EULA. EULAs have their own share of enforceability problems in the E.U.

But there will be a battle around conventional games here, those that try to prevent resale. All the consoles etc.

[Podraig]

That offical thread is awesome...its like there gearing up for the Boston tea party mark 2 and gonna burn copies of lotro.

American companies pulling out of europe...

what will the poor euro's do with no games movies or music ( its all made in the US don't ya know )

American compaines don't need to obey european laws...well turbine don't anyway so no change there.

But best one of all was the Americans should have a say in how european laws are written..no taxation without representation...that was fucking off the wall hilarious, I'm still laughing and its been 10 mins.

[Ethirgul]

LotRO, as  all online games, is, at  its heart, a service. The licenses that we acquire just define the access to content above the base service. LotRO, with its hybrid model, sure is a little muddy in that respect. Most importantly though, game access is granted due to a service contract that probably is not transferable. As  mentioned above, expansions  could be considered software licenses that would be transferable. What a mess.

Interestingly enough, it may be that a game that charges an initial fee in the purchase of a game license, such as SW:TOR, TSW or GW2, may have to provide a way to transfer that license. F2P games on the other hand probably not. More fun stuff.

I do not think turbine actively searches for traded accounts or even reacts on reports of traded accounts. That was different at Codemasters. Just changing  your payment or address data could lead  to a ban. At least until F2P  made that data purely optional.

This finally may lead to  a redefinition of what an MMO legally is, software or service. If it should become the later, the repercussions concerning  availability and service quality may be dramatic. In favor of the customers.

[LordVorontur]

An account isn't software, I'd have to agree with that reply. And that's just how WB will defend their continued ban on account selling. After all, they're not selling a license

[MueR]

Oh look, a thread on the official forums...

Aaaand it's gone.

A ban on selling accounts is valid, even according to European law. Take for example Diablo III: you buy the game, you attach the game license to your battle.net account. You could resell the disc, but that won't help anyone (well, you, but it's not nice, and you shouldn't!), since the game is now tied to your account. According to European law, Blizzard is perfectly entitled to require such an account to have an active game license. Where the law kicks in, is when you request Blizzard to remove that game from your account and refund you a key, in order to sell it again. This is allowed by EU law and Blizzard should comply.

LOTRO on the other hand does not require you to buy anything to play the game. You only need to create an account. This account does not cost you money (well, that's debatable given Turbine's shop conduct), and as such you cannot get any refund. The only part where it gets interesting is the purchase of expansions. But an account is personal and EU law does not cover you wanting to sell it. Detaching game licenses from accounts yes, selling the account no.

[Doro]

[Jrdp]

MueR, on 06 July 2012 - 10:48, said:

Oh look, a thread on the official forums...

Aaaand it's gone.

Was more funny than that.

First they move the tread to Offtopic (how a threat that talk about Lotro accounts was off-topic on general forum of Lotro is a no brainer for me).

But seems that they think that the thread still receive too much attention and hours later they deleted it.

Ofc they told nothing to me about the move or the thread deletion.

MueR, on 06 July 2012 - 10:48, said:

LOTRO on the other hand does not require you to buy anything to play the game. You only need to create an account. This account does not cost you money (well, that's debatable given Turbine's shop conduct), and as such you cannot get any refund. The only part where it gets interesting is the purchase of expansions. But an account is personal and EU law does not cover you wanting to sell it. Detaching game licenses from accounts yes, selling the account no.

Maybe it would be true for a freep, but it's not true at least in Lifer's.

I have a license bound to my account that allow me to play all the SoA content, receive 500 Tp/month, to play as freep in the moors unlimited, and that until the game close... and ofc on top the expansions purchased that's one thing that the new EU laws allow me to sell.

I've no problem that they deleted all my account chars, my gold and watever they want but:

- I've a lifer license that could be sold
- I've upgrdes like the Adventurer’s Pack that give perks that could be sold
- I've expansion upgrades that could be sold
- I've over 10k tp points tied to the license that is also debatable if could be sold tied with that license, because they allow licese upgrades and they have a monetary value (and if not i could buy RoR with points and problem solved xD)

Great, dont allow me sell the characters, but im sure that someone would find valuable all that things.

[Podraig]

@MueR

Origonally Lotro required a purchase to play, I like alot of the older players and am sure yourself also have a SOA box with disc ect that cost 50 euro or so, lets say 35 euro for the disc and box ect and 15 euro for the one month of gametime that came with it. How would that apply to this law?

[Stavro Mueller]

MueR, on 06 July 2012 - 10:48, said:

The only part where it gets interesting is the purchase of expansions. But an account is personal and EU law does not cover you wanting to sell it. Detaching game licenses from accounts yes, selling the account no.

Regarding expansions, Turbine could just as easily relabel them as "account upgrades" and bypass the issue entirely.

Jrdp, on 06 July 2012 - 13:52, said:

I have a license bound to my account that allow me to play all the SoA content, receive 500 Tp/month, to play as freep in the moors unlimited, and that until the game close... and ofc on top the expansions purchased that's one thing that the new EU laws allow me to sell.

That's a pre-paid subscription, not a license, so it would fall under the standard account/service/subscription rules.

[Amrundir]

MueR, on 06 July 2012 - 10:48, said:

Aaaand it's gone.

It was gone, but now the thread is there again...

[MueR]

Quote

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[cossieuk]

Try this link

http://forums.lotro....688#post6273688

[Jrdp]

Stavro Mueller, on 06 July 2012 - 19:32, said:

That's a pre-paid subscription, not a license, so it would fall under the standard account/service/subscription rules.

It's a license, and in the EULA even themselves said that is a license.

Quote

TURBINE, INC.

THE LORD OF THE RINGS ONLINE™

END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT

...

1. Limited License. The Game Client is licensed, not sold. Subject to your agreement to and continued compliance with the terms and conditions of this EULA, Turbine hereby grants to you a limited, revocable, non-exclusive license to (a) download and install the Game Client onto a personal computer owned by you, and ( use the Game Client in conjunction with the Game Server for your non-commercial entertainment purposes only. The foregoing license does not permit you to do any of the following, and you agree that the violation of any of the following license limitations will constitute an infringement of Turbine’s copyrights:

[Doro]

I always did like the Turbine EULA. The parts where they say 'we can close it at any time' and 'you don't own your accounts' are funny concepts.

I bought SoA on disk and the access was advertised as free with it. Which means I must have bought the contents of that disk. I own SoA. Same for MoM. I bought the expansion and applied it to my account from a physical disk. I own MoM.

I own my account due to how Turbine sold it. Their EULA doesn't change that.

[Maelendil]

I sugar-coated it a bit on the official forum, but here I can say it loud and clear:

EULAs are one-sided legalese bullying customers into believing they have no rights to anything. Many EULAs have been challenged and beaten in courts, and in many countries a contract is void if it contains illegal clauses (i.e. if inalienable rights are forfeited in the contract).

Quoting Turbine's EULA to make a point on Turbine's rights is like quoting the bible to prove God's existence.