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5 hours ago, Amorey said:

Fun raid, worth a run for sure.

But from what I've been told, zero difficulty - ESPECIALLY once you're geared.  That difficulty drop is supposed to occur AFTER you get geared for the followup raids.... NOT in the same gear set.  IIRC that's one of the things the Rift (and for that matter, the MoM raids) did right.

Edit:
Basically, if a group in best in slot gear can faceroll the endgame content, then the endgame content is too easy.  Well balanced end game content should still be able to wipe a group in BiS if they're not obeying mechanics.

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one of the biggest problems with the new (almost a year old now?) raid was that you had to drastically lower your graphics just to play through it.  and to be honest, that was the breaking point for me (as far as bothering with gearing up and doing group content consistently) in LotRO.  i spent too much time in better games, in better dungeons, where i didn't even have to bother with my graphic options.  sadly, in my experience you will find that people who still play LotRO have accepted this as a norm (poor performance) mostly because they can't do without their Middle Earth fix.

2 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

That difficulty drop is supposed to occur AFTER you get geared for the followup raids.... NOT in the same gear set.  

true, but there is no follow up raid in LotRO.  Throne was the first end-game raid in 4 years.  When released, the level cap was 105.  The new raid coming (?) will be at level 115.  any gear earned in the Throne became obsolete pretty much as soon as you stepped foot in Mordor (due to LoE) around level 106(ish).

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45 minutes ago, Papi said:

one of the biggest problems with the new (almost a year old now?) raid was that you had to drastically lower your graphics just to play through it.  and to be honest, that was the breaking point for me (as far as bothering with gearing up and doing group content consistently) in LotRO.  i spent too much time in better games, in better dungeons, where i didn't even have to bother with my graphic options.  sadly, in my experience you will find that people who still play LotRO have accepted this as a norm (poor performance) mostly because they can't do without their Middle Earth fix.

That's something I've been harping on for a long time, and one of the key reasons why I suspect that LotRO will never drop 2000 (I shit ye not), XP, and Vista support.

It's like they're so grossly out of touch with reality it's gone from being kinda funny in a warped way to just downright sad and pathetic.

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20 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

But from what I've been told, zero difficulty - ESPECIALLY once you're geared.  That difficulty drop is supposed to occur AFTER you get geared for the followup raids.... NOT in the same gear set.  IIRC that's one of the things the Rift (and for that matter, the MoM raids) did right.

Edit:
Basically, if a group in best in slot gear can faceroll the endgame content, then the endgame content is too easy.  Well balanced end game content should still be able to wipe a group in BiS if they're not obeying mechanics.

Just curious, but if a raid, once on farm with the raid group all having BIS gear is still meant to be hard, then how does the progression part work - you know, then said raid group has to clear it before they all have BIS...

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Bango said:

Just curious, but if a raid, once on farm with the raid group all having BIS gear is still meant to be hard, then how does the progression part work - you know, then said raid group has to clear it before they all have BIS...

Isn't a case of "hard without BiS, even when focused" and "hard with BiS, if not focused" but "easy with BiS, and focused"? Might be about people's competence, as opposed to just gear.

One of the few things I liked about later LotRO raiding was the presence of T1, T2, and HM. It provided enough levels for people to work their way up, until you had the top gear and could face walk it as long as you paid attention.

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6 minutes ago, Doro said:

Isn't a case of "hard without BiS, even when focused" and "hard with BiS, if not focused" but "easy with BiS, and focused"? Might be about people's competence, as opposed to just gear.

One of the few things I liked about later LotRO raiding was the presence of T1, T2, and HM. It provided enough levels for people to work their way up, until you had the top gear and could face walk it as long as you paid attention.

Indeed, being at the keyboard and paying attention is a prerequisite for any end-game content. But given how in my experience the delta between "start of progression" gear and BIS gear is substantial, then if the raid group works with the mechanics then the content should be easy - but of course that's based on said raid group being so knowledgeable of the raid (because as they all have BIS they damn well should be!) they should have the mechanics down to a T.

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12 minutes ago, Bango said:

Indeed, being at the keyboard and paying attention is a prerequisite for any end-game content. But given how in my experience the delta between "start of progression" gear and BIS gear is substantial, then if the raid group works with the mechanics then the content should be easy - but of course that's based on said raid group being so knowledgeable of the raid (because as they all have BIS they damn well should be!) they should have the mechanics down to a T.

Yeah, it's basically a case of practice makes perfect. Like when Draigoch first released, I remember my kin made a couple of people responsible for just memorising routes through tunnels and animations, so the rest of the group would just follow until they learnt it themselves. Then you had the burglar who was responsible for reading out every combo we needed. After we got the hang of our roles, it was a cake walk. But inexperience made it harder than necessary (especially that damn run through the insta death laser beam eyes at the start), even if the actual mechanics weren't too difficult.

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1 hour ago, Doro said:

Yeah, it's basically a case of practice makes perfect. Like when Draigoch first released, I remember my kin made a couple of people responsible for just memorising routes through tunnels and animations, so the rest of the group would just follow until they learnt it themselves. Then you had the burglar who was responsible for reading out every combo we needed. After we got the hang of our roles, it was a cake walk. But inexperience made it harder than necessary (especially that damn run through the insta death laser beam eyes at the start), even if the actual mechanics weren't too difficult.

That's why Al's comment was a bit silly. They're in BIS gear for a reason.

Anyhow. No point beating that point to death.

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11 minutes ago, Bango said:

That's why Al's comment was a bit silly. They're in BIS gear for a reason.

Anyhow. No point beating that point to death.

I didn't realise we were even inline for a GBH charge against the point. Here's me thinking we were all in agreement or something!

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57 minutes ago, Doro said:

 Here's me thinking we were all in agreement or something!

Yes, let's go back to trolling, the last couple of pages were scary - I basically found myself in agreement with everyone - From Amorey, through Doro to Almagnus. Scary experience, which I am sure not to repeat here. 

As for difficulty level - no Tank or Warden worth his shoelaces is allowed to complain. Pocket item basically solves Shadow dread, the more enemies, the merrier. When I venture into Mordor with something squishy I might complain and look for someone's company. Fun level is average - but not warranting poisonous spittle. 

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29 minutes ago, Jedy2 said:

... no Tank or Warden...

ehuy4.jpg?a417480

I see what you did there.

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4 hours ago, Bango said:

Just curious, but if a raid, once on farm with the raid group all having BIS gear is still meant to be hard, then how does the progression part work - you know, then said raid group has to clear it before they all have BIS...

It's tuned so that you have to do the mechanics, or you will wipe, and the increased DPS makes the thing die faster, while also mitigating DPS.  When your ilvl goes up, things will get easier, and it's all difficulty is tuned around average ilvl.  That and BiS takes you at least a month (probably two) of getting all the weekly drops combined with just getting lucky and snagging a gear piece so you don't need currency for it - so it's not a fast thing by any stretch of the mind.

The thing with progression raiding, though, is that you have this plateau like 3-4 times over the course of an expansion, so there's always something to work towards,  but have a casual tier that still requires decent gear so the playerbase itself doesn't feel compelled to do BiS while still seeing all the things, yet those that want to work on the harder stuff have a second tier for certain group content.  Not everything needs a second difficulty tier as most casuals want quantity over quality (so they always have a variety of things to do), while the progression guilds want their challenges, but don't need that many if the challenges are sufficiently hard (like 12 or so over the course of an expansion).

In more practical terms, if I'm coming out of the expansion leveling experience at ilvl 280something, get to ilvl 295 (minimum required to enter the normal tier of the raid ) , with ilvl 310 being stupid easy to get to - which is actually the minimum required to enter the hard tier of the raid - but the normal tier dropping ilvl 320 gear4 and the hard tier dropping ilvl 340 gear - you can see the sense of progression, and why getting to BiS makes it easier.  It's still not faceroll easy by any stretch of the mind (that doesn't happen until you're at BiS for the next raid tier - assuming the mechanics will ever allow for faceroll easy that is) - but then again you're not forcing the entire population to do something extremely difficult.

IMO, that's how a raiding system should work... not "here's the raid, we checked the box" and have just one for the entire expansion.

4 hours ago, Doro said:

Yeah, it's basically a case of practice makes perfect. Like when Draigoch first released, I remember my kin made a couple of people responsible for just memorising routes through tunnels and animations, so the rest of the group would just follow until they learnt it themselves. Then you had the burglar who was responsible for reading out every combo we needed. After we got the hang of our roles, it was a cake walk. But inexperience made it harder than necessary (especially that damn run through the insta death laser beam eyes at the start), even if the actual mechanics weren't too difficult.

To put things in perspective, I would put Draigoch at normal difficulty and ToO T2 HM as somewhere between normal and hard raid difficulty.

LotRO is really just too easy, so it skewers perspectives on how difficult things for the average player should be..

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On 8/22/2017 at 2:29 PM, Almagnus1 said:

That's something I've been harping on for a long time, and one of the key reasons why I suspect that LotRO will never drop 2000 (I shit ye not), XP, and Vista support.

It's like they're so grossly out of touch with reality it's gone from being kinda funny in a warped way to just downright sad and pathetic.

You know the only reason there was that whole xp, vista debacle was because the security protocols that are tied to the store were updated and they're not supported by either of those OS.  The solution was creating a way for xp and vista users to continue to open the store with the browser of their choosing.  The reason why they wont "officially" drop support is because they're really isn't a reason.  The code they use for this game is so wonky, patched and back asswards that no one that works for the company even knows what to do with it. 

The game is not optimized, will never be optimized.  Money is the biggest reason, but there is that other reason that no one speaks about.  That's the 65+ year old players who will never give up xp because they've gotten used to it and spend a shit load of money.  As far as they're concerned they can look at pictures on facebook, check their email, and load lotro so they can post on the forums that using the AH one shot them in bree and it's too hard.

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12 hours ago, Amenhir said:

You know the only reason there was that whole xp, vista debacle was because the security protocols that are tied to the store were updated and they're not supported by either of those OS.  The solution was creating a way for xp and vista users to continue to open the store with the browser of their choosing.  The reason why they wont "officially" drop support is because they're really isn't a reason.  The code they use for this game is so wonky, patched and back asswards that no one that works for the company even knows what to do with it. 

That and both XP and Vista aren't officially supported by Microsoft, which means they generally won't be getting security updates unlike 7, 8, 8.1, and 10.

I mean, when you have WoW walking away from XP... maybe it's time you do the same.

12 hours ago, Amenhir said:

The game is not optimized, will never be optimized.  Money is the biggest reason, but there is that other reason that no one speaks about.  That's the 65+ year old players who will never give up xp because they've gotten used to it and spend a shit load of money.  As far as they're concerned they can look at pictures on facebook, check their email, and load lotro so they can post on the forums that using the AH one shot them in bree and it's too hard.

I have a feeling "Mithril Crown" fits the description of far too many of the playerbase, which is significantly higher than many other MMOs.  That data is probably something Turbine doesn't want to let loose, and would also explain many decisions.

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On 8/22/2017 at 5:54 AM, Doro said:

How does the raid play?

It was a very fun raid.  I'd say it was better than every wing in Orthanc except shadow.  I'd rank LOTRO raids as:

1.  Rift

2.  OD

3.  Throne

4.  DN

5.  BG

6.  ToO

7.  Watcher / Turtle

8.  Hele

9.  Erebor

I don't think, btw that it was too easy at all as a full raid - sure some wings were straight dps races like Rakothas and Vadhokar, but the Mumaks and Unbroken One challenges certainly weren't.  Overall it was a very good raid and very refreshing - I didn't think that Turbine / SSG was capable of producing anything close to it at this point in the game's life-cycle.  

In terms of mechanics, the raid is as follows:

Rakothas - straight DPS race, usually done in under 90 seconds;

Mumaks - requires a lot of coordination, CC, and group positioning skills, usually took more than 10 minutes;

Vadokhar - straight DPS race;

Unbroken One - easy on t1 or t2, t2c was very challenging.  Requires excellent coordination between multiple groups, positional awareness from all raid members, and high DPS;

Twins - standard LOTRO twins fight, but with some added wrinkles like incoming healing debuffs on the tanks and adds that require CC - I'd say medium difficulty;

Gothmog - multi-stage fight with tons of adds.  Requires good dps, positioning, debuffiing and even some CC.  medium difficulty.

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