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My Turbine complaints department saga


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#1 Hajile

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 23:49

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Howdy gang. Just thought I'd let you know something incredibly interesting - it IS possible to obtain refunds from Turbine, regardless of their "all sales are final" spiel. I just got my money back from them for the Isengard preorder.

Long story. I was initially furious with Turbine for holding back on the announcement of the stat changes until after they'd allowed people to preorder, so I asked for my cash back, and they said no.  I attempted to get my money back through Paypal, but seemed to have no luck, so I went back to Turbine. They said all sales are final, and besides, the Isengard product key was now permanently registered to my account and could not be removed.

So I looked into it and got some interesting advice from Consumer Direct and emailed Turbine back with some juicy info. For a start, if proof of purchase can be produced (which it certainly can be, as receipts are generated via email), the Sale of Goods Act 1979 states that any imminent changes to the product or service must be declared, and if they are not a refund can be asked for and must be given, provided that refund is requested at any time up to 6 years after purchase. The only way out of it would be to make a like-for-like offer, although in the case of an online game that would entail providing me with my own exclusive version of the game sans stat changes. Totally unfeasible, so if I want a refund and am based in the UK I have them bang to rights - as they're offering the product/service to UK customers they have to abide by UK law. Gotcha number 1.

That's not the only UK law they are in breach of. It seems that if there are imminent changes to a product or service that alter the product in a palpable way (like the stat changes), failure to declare them before you allow the transaction to take place - thus denying the customer the opportunity to make an informed decision - is in violation of the Misrepresentation Act 1967, which makes their conduct illegal in the UK. Their "game experience may change for any reason" nonsense in their EULA is irrelevant because they're breaking the law. Gotcha number 2.

Also - and you are going to absolutely LOVE this - if you tell your customer one thing and then do the opposite regardless of your past statements to the contrary, you are also in violation of the Misrepresentation Act. Like, ooh, I dunno, say your cash shop will offer "convenience and not advantage" and then sell things that you freely admit are "advantages". Their back-pedalling over that "convenience and not advantage" statement is in violation of British law! Technically it's also fraud because you've misrepresented your product to get the customer to enter into a contract of service. Gotcha number 3.

And that's not all! If Codemasters were not aware of Turbine's plans to go F2P while Codies were reassuring their customers that there were "no plans to go F2P", then Turbine are open for corporate legal action because they effectively caused Codemasters to involuntarily violate the same act. Turbine could face legal action from every single Codemasters' customer too, for forcing the company with which the customer had a contract of service to violate the law. Gotcha number 4.

The sweetest part of it is that removing the statements that they made in the past on their forums is basically an admission of guilt, and effectively means that they were attempting to cover up illegal activity. What's hilarious is that if they still had Codemasters as their European partner, they could pretty much say whatever they liked and get away with it, as they were not handling the European service themselves. As soon as they started directly dealing with European customers, they had to start abiding by the relevant legislation. They walked straight into it and left themselves open to cop it in the neck for every violation of our more stringent consumer rights laws.  Bwa ha ha ha.

I pointed all of this out to Turbine, along with advising them that if they wish to offer their service directly to overseas territories they should have done a better job of familiarising themselves with the consumer rights legislation of those territories. Alternatively, if they are unable to do so, they should hand their overseas services to partners who can.

I also pointed out that I would be writing a letter of complaint to their parent company Warner Brothers advising them of all of Turbine's transgressions under the leadership of the Paizes. I will also be informing Middle-earth Enterprises of their unlawful conduct and asking them to reappraise Turbine's status as a licensee. They have been known in the past to revoke licenses for less.

Strangely, the very next day, my Paypal claim was reopened and my money was credited back to me. Funny, that. Weirdly, I still have my Isengard goodies and preorder registered to my account too. I will be watching that with interest, because if they suddenly vanish from my account, that means when they originally refused my refund under the grounds that the product key was permanently fixed and could not be removed, they were telling me enormous lies in order to wriggle out of giving me my money back. And that's a whole new can of worms...

Turbine really should learn that they should not mess with European customers. We are clearly not the pushovers they are used to. If they have to learn the hard way, then that's fine by me. And I'm still going to write those letters to Warner Brothers and Middle-earth Enterprises. :)

#2 Dalthalion

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 00:02

There are very few instances when I find myself in awe.  This is one of them. +1
"Getting a chuckle out of reading unofficial forums. Don't confuse us with facts, we have conspiracies to promote! :)" - Sapience (@rickheaton), in full denial
"If someone who always supports a position is a shill , does that mean someone who refutes it constantly is a shill for the opposition?" -
Sapience (@rickheaton), a shill
"Pssst, people who think they're being sooper sekret.... I see you! :)" -
Sapience (@rickheaton), waxing paranoid
"Hate to ruin a perfectly good conspiracy theory, but I never worked on Hellgate. Sorry folks." -
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Clarification Needed On Profanity Community Guideline
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"... this *is* Sapience we're talking about, he's a big, mean....****Bzzzzzztttt****cli ck****Account Deleted...****" -
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"It is not what you say that matters, but the manner in which you say it ..." - William Carlos Williams, avowed socialist
Sapientis bardus est.

#3 Spheric

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 01:16

I love the way you think. And act. By the by, the problem over here stateside isn't that we don't have laws to protect us from fraud; it's that the laws are no longer enforced. I suspect that corporate fraud is by far the biggest money maker in America today. For example:

Presenting forged documents to a court of law without reaping any serious repercussions? Justice was supposed to be the cornerstone of our democracy.

And that is only the tip of the iceberg. Fraud is now so rampant throughout corporate America on so many levels that it is probably impossible to categorize it all.  >:(
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#4 cossieuk

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 01:51

One other way to get your money back would have been the distant selling regulation, where you have 14 days to change your mind about products bought online or via the phone

#5 Byron

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 08:48

Excellent work Hajile
Your action here is to remind us that we are not helpless.

Usually large companies play the bully hoping that their corporate magnificence will intimidate individuals but when somebody knows exactly his/her wrights and demands fair treatment are running like chickens seeing the farmer with a cleaver in his hands :P

Cheers +1

#6 Vardiel

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 09:01

+1 for acting and not just crying about things. Cheers!  d;)b
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#7 LordVorontur

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 10:26

Finally, someone putting their money where their mouth is and following through(no, not in that way, you dirty dirty dirty dirty people).

Well played, Hajile.
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#8 Doro

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 14:09

As much as I love seeing Turbine get smacked in the face for being douchebags, I can't see why stat changes is that big of a deal when pre-ordering. They'll be implemented if you get the expansion or not so. Or am I missing the part where they're saying that they'll charge us 1p per minute per stat point or something?
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#9 SoDT

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 14:13

Hajile, I am mightily impressed by your tenacity! Always worth standing up to the big boys, especially when they are wrong.

I must admit I enjoyed my foray in to the world of the Advertising Standards Authority and the suddenly downgraded Mirkwood offer but you have gone whole light years beyond...

Respect to you!

definitely deserve one of these....  *O*
"Know the smallest things and the biggest things, the shallowest things and the deepest things. As if it were a straight road mapped out on the ground ... These things cannot be explained in detail. From one thing, know ten thousand things" - Miyamoto Musashi - Go Rin No Sho (The Book of Five Rings)

Just in case you thought it was, I would just like to say "IT WASN'T ME!"

#10 Hajile

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 00:06

Thanks for the kind words all!

I'm currently in the process of compiling a list of all of Turbine's offences to go in the letters, and I'm intending for this to be quite thorough - I'm even going to include the accusations of chauvinism in the Isengard promotional material that was debated at length on their official forums, which never received an official response.

Basically, anything dodgy, unethical, mean, dishonest or a discredit to the license that they have done is going in these letters.

I want to make sure I don't miss anything, so it may take a little time.

#11 Vardiel

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:45

View PostHajile, on 29 July 2011 - 00:06, said:

Thanks for the kind words all!

I'm currently in the process of compiling a list of all of Turbine's offences to go in the letters, and I'm intending for this to be quite thorough - I'm even going to include the accusations of chauvinism in the Isengard promotional material that was debated at length on their official forums, which never received an official response.

Basically, anything dodgy, unethical, mean, dishonest or a discredit to the license that they have done is going in these letters.

I want to make sure I don't miss anything, so it may take a little time.

Just hope you won't end up killing Lotro altogether with those letters. :P
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#12 Byron

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:56

Indeed is it wise ?

I mean its okay by me if you report their doing in WB in order to check them but if the said letters addressed to ME really annoy them  and pull the carpet under their feet I am not sure what we will gain in return. There will be no game.

Point is to scare them and make them correct their attitude not push them too hard and kill LOTRO all together.

My personal opinion is that ME letter should be send only if their behaviour fail to change.

#13 kitkat

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 09:13

Yeah, hope they don't decide that the whole thing is just far too much trouble and pull the plug...

#14 Doro

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 11:49

View PostHajile, on 29 July 2011 - 00:06, said:

Thanks for the kind words all!

I'm currently in the process of compiling a list of all of Turbine's offences to go in the letters, and I'm intending for this to be quite thorough - I'm even going to include the accusations of chauvinism in the Isengard promotional material that was debated at length on their official forums, which never received an official response.

Basically, anything dodgy, unethical, mean, dishonest or a discredit to the license that they have done is going in these letters.

I want to make sure I don't miss anything, so it may take a little time.

Don't forget to include:

Telling us they'd give a new PvMP zone then saying they won't.

Telling us the Steed of Night was permanent then saying it wasn't.

Telling us the store would not contain advantage and then doing the opposite.

Telling us that PvMP was a feature of the game on the back of the SoA box, then saying it wasn't worth looking at.

Probably more stuff, just can't remember.
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#15 Raedwulf

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 13:07

+1 from me, too. Well done, that lad! :Y
Good players adapt, bad players whinge; which are you?

I find that, where Turbine is concerned, optimism is a mayfly that lasts two seconds in the face of the blowtorch of experience.

#16 Dalthalion

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 16:21

View Postkitkat, on 29 July 2011 - 09:13, said:

Yeah, hope they don't decide that the whole thing is just far too much trouble and pull the plug...

That's all right.  If ME does pull the plug, I can always go back to my fall-back, Angband.
"Getting a chuckle out of reading unofficial forums. Don't confuse us with facts, we have conspiracies to promote! :)" - Sapience (@rickheaton), in full denial
"If someone who always supports a position is a shill , does that mean someone who refutes it constantly is a shill for the opposition?" -
Sapience (@rickheaton), a shill
"Pssst, people who think they're being sooper sekret.... I see you! :)" -
Sapience (@rickheaton), waxing paranoid
"Hate to ruin a perfectly good conspiracy theory, but I never worked on Hellgate. Sorry folks." -
Sapience (@rickheaton), former associate of Ping0
"One last thing I'd like to mention is that there seem to be some former members of the community who have decided to add to the concerns and issues surrounding the transition by misrepresenting some facts. Primarily, banning is almost always a last resort. It usually takes a willful act (indeed a series of them) on the part of the party being removed from the community to get banned. Multiple warnings, infractions, and appeals are usually involved. Often times warnings are informal and sent via PM or a simple post asking those involved to change the subject, refrain from posting certain topics, etc." - Sapience, LOTRO Forum Topic
Clarification Needed On Profanity Community Guideline
"I may never leave work. Tornados keep popping up between me and home." -
Sapience (@rickheaton), with a poor understanding of justice
"... this *is* Sapience we're talking about, he's a big, mean....****Bzzzzzztttt****cli ck****Account Deleted...****" -
Arbalister, Sapience's fanboy, in a moment of rare insight.
"It's not what you say, it's how you choose to say it." - Sapience, LOTRO CSM
"It is not what you say that matters, but the manner in which you say it ..." - William Carlos Williams, avowed socialist
Sapientis bardus est.

#17 SoDT

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 17:32

any chance you could add "Abuse of the English language" to that list (or is that a "lizt"?)  ;) :Y
"Know the smallest things and the biggest things, the shallowest things and the deepest things. As if it were a straight road mapped out on the ground ... These things cannot be explained in detail. From one thing, know ten thousand things" - Miyamoto Musashi - Go Rin No Sho (The Book of Five Rings)

Just in case you thought it was, I would just like to say "IT WASN'T ME!"

#18 Dalthalion

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 17:45

View PostSoDT, on 29 July 2011 - 17:32, said:

(or is that a "lizt"?)

Let's ask Franz Liszt.
"Getting a chuckle out of reading unofficial forums. Don't confuse us with facts, we have conspiracies to promote! :)" - Sapience (@rickheaton), in full denial
"If someone who always supports a position is a shill , does that mean someone who refutes it constantly is a shill for the opposition?" -
Sapience (@rickheaton), a shill
"Pssst, people who think they're being sooper sekret.... I see you! :)" -
Sapience (@rickheaton), waxing paranoid
"Hate to ruin a perfectly good conspiracy theory, but I never worked on Hellgate. Sorry folks." -
Sapience (@rickheaton), former associate of Ping0
"One last thing I'd like to mention is that there seem to be some former members of the community who have decided to add to the concerns and issues surrounding the transition by misrepresenting some facts. Primarily, banning is almost always a last resort. It usually takes a willful act (indeed a series of them) on the part of the party being removed from the community to get banned. Multiple warnings, infractions, and appeals are usually involved. Often times warnings are informal and sent via PM or a simple post asking those involved to change the subject, refrain from posting certain topics, etc." - Sapience, LOTRO Forum Topic
Clarification Needed On Profanity Community Guideline
"I may never leave work. Tornados keep popping up between me and home." -
Sapience (@rickheaton), with a poor understanding of justice
"... this *is* Sapience we're talking about, he's a big, mean....****Bzzzzzztttt****cli ck****Account Deleted...****" -
Arbalister, Sapience's fanboy, in a moment of rare insight.
"It's not what you say, it's how you choose to say it." - Sapience, LOTRO CSM
"It is not what you say that matters, but the manner in which you say it ..." - William Carlos Williams, avowed socialist
Sapientis bardus est.

#19 Raedwulf

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 22:37

I blame Noah Webzter. It'z all hiz fault, the anglophobe baztard... ;)
Good players adapt, bad players whinge; which are you?

I find that, where Turbine is concerned, optimism is a mayfly that lasts two seconds in the face of the blowtorch of experience.

#20 Moderate Peril

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 18:00

Okay, I was so interested in this post, that I've have written a blog article around it. As this information has been placed in the public domain, I see no problem in quoting it and linking back to here.

However, if the original poster or the admin for this forums objects I can alter the post accordingly.

I have been measured in what I have said as it is common sense to tread cautiously around litigious US companies, but I thought it important to bring this case to the attention of the wider LOTRO (and gaming) community.

I wonder if Hajile experience will encourage others to do likewise?

Will this be a storm in a tea cup or a nasty can of worms for Turbine?


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