337 replies to this topic

[Moderate Peril]

I originally wrote about this issue on my website. Since then the whole matter has expanded into something quite bigger and possibly of a wider nature.

I have just posted this weeks podcast. The opening discussion makes reference to this subject matter and I have added a link in the show notes, to this very thread.

The title of this particular section of the podcast is "Do gamers take things too personally?". However, I would like to make it clearly known, that it is not a personal attack on anyone related to this particular matter. Rather it is a look at how straight forward issues often gets hijacked or derailed.

I do believe that this has happened to this topic to a degree. It appears has become a sort of rallying point for wider complaints against Turbine and as a result has attracted an element who are not so courteous. There has been mud slinging by both sides. It kind of drowns the real point. Mind you most of the aggravation happened on the official LOTRO forums and not here.

I wanted to bring this to your collective attention, as I'm certain otherwise, there would be the usual Chinese whispers and the next thing you know, there would be claims that I'm slagging people on these boards off, when that is not the case.

Listen to the podcast and decide for yourself.

http://www.containsm...-it-personally/

Regards,

Roger Edwards

[TP Hoarder]

It is great to see that some things have been completed in time for the release of RoI.

Instances, no.

Revamped Store, yes.

http://forums.lotro....304#post5684304

[Cogidubnus]

TP Hoarder, on 17 September 2011 - 22:05, said:

It is great to see that some things have been completed in time for the release of RoI.

Instances, no.

Revamped Store, yes.

http://forums.lotro....304#post5684304

Its all a matter of priorities...

[Podraig]

Xusia of Delos, on 17 September 2011 - 20:55, said:

I originally wrote about this issue on my website. Since then the whole matter has expanded into something quite bigger and possibly of a wider nature.

I have just posted this weeks podcast. The opening discussion makes reference to this subject matter and I have added a link in the show notes, to this very thread.

The title of this particular section of the podcast is "Do gamers take things too personally?". However, I would like to make it clearly known, that it is not a personal attack on anyone related to this particular matter. Rather it is a look at how straight forward issues often gets hijacked or derailed.

I do believe that this has happened to this topic to a degree. It appears has become a sort of rallying point for wider complaints against Turbine and as a result has attracted an element who are not so courteous. There has been mud slinging by both sides. It kind of drowns the real point. Mind you most of the aggravation happened on the official LOTRO forums and not here.

I wanted to bring this to your collective attention, as I'm certain otherwise, there would be the usual Chinese whispers and the next thing you know, there would be claims that I'm slagging people on these boards off, when that is not the case.

Listen to the podcast and decide for yourself.

http://www.containsm...-it-personally/

Regards,

Roger Edwards

Danger long post.

I listened to your podcast last night and found it interesting the discussion as regards do gamers take things to seriously. While you mention Lotro and ofc mention some other mmo's wow ect, I think there is a fundemental difference your overlooking as regards Lotro/turbine and thats a f2p model been forced onto a subscription based community.

While there are alot of MMO's that are f2p most if not all started as F2P there was no pre subscriber playerbase or in turbine's case a pre lifetime playerbase in which they have enjoyed a game for a 3 year period then had that game fundamentally changed with the advent of the F2P model, I am ofc in this demographic, I have a Lifetime account, have played since SOA, am set in my old ways so to speak, I pugged book 4 onwards due to no such thing as inspired greatness ect, I grinded sarnur in a group for deeds ect ect, I put alot of work into my SOA characters and alot of time.

While I have np with the F2P model aspects of opening the game up to others and improving the community or even the fact they can solo all the books we had as subscribers to pug ( LFG battle of the 21st hall..please for the love of god I've been looking for 3 days ect ) my main problem with F2P is the store and the fact Turbine have never been upfront as regards there plans for the game, even in the past blatently lieing to the playerbase examples include of the now infamous "convienience not advantage" as regards the store and the "no plans for Lotro to go f2p" said afew months before Lotro went F2p.

Another problem I think as regards the current issues is the way the F2P playerbase love to throw around the Lifetime players get Turbine points for Free arguement ( this really annoys me ), we as Lifetime players took a Gamble with 200-300 dollars at the time when we bought Lifetime, if turbine had closed 6 months later we would not have recouped our money. This sets up the next part of the argument and why myself as a lifetime player is not happy with turbine, its a matter of Trust, we as lifetime players Trusted Turbine by paying for lifetime subscriptions up front that Turbine would deliver the product we were paying for. this ofc changed with F2P, the current product offered by Turbine is a hollow shell of what it used to be.

We now have a system where the only objective from turbine is to make cash from the playerbase at any cost, mind you it seems only the Lotro playerbase is targeted because if we compare Turbines other F2P title DDO, they have a store also but it does only offer Convienience over advantage, there is nothing in the DDO store applicable at endgame, its mostly cosmetics and starter gear, you cant get any components to make epic Items from the DDO store ( epic been DDO's  top teir items ). So why is the Lotro playerbase targeted with Advantage over Convienience, items such as relic removal/defence tomes/stat tomes/legacies an relics for endgame weapons, healing and power pots more powerful than there ingame equivilents?. my assumption as a player is that Turbine know how many people are Lifetime/VIp and know that the players have a longtime investment unlike DDO so there mandate is to get as much as possible from the players for little or no return. Case in point the glorified quest pack that is ROI.

Relic's were downgraded to t6 to save us the grind and relic removal at 10 increments was removed because as turbine said they lessoned the grind, top selling Lotro store item is relic removal scrolls, now with ROI we are back to T7, with level 70 extrodinary relics that cost a fortune in shards, the easy way to get shards from DOF removed and still relic removal as only a store option. At a guess I will say with 80% accuracy update 5 will come with level 75 exceptional relics or something just to try force people to unslot again and grind more, while fan-boi's might chime in and say all doom and gloom, I would say Turbines track record for double dealing and bare faced lie's proves otherwise.

Turbines main problem is they now have to deal with the EU playerbase, who unlike there American cousins dont just sit back and take it on the chin. I think as proven sofar Turbine has no idea how to deal with EU players espcially angry ones, Turbine should take a leaf from another MMO title and thats Eve and try to converse with the players instead of just ignoring them and hope they will go away, as we have seen on this board and in repeated posts on Turbines forums, going away is not gonna happen, Turbine with there recent locking and closing of threads ect is the straw that has broken the camels back.

[Hajile]

Xusia of Delos, on 17 September 2011 - 20:55, said:

Listen to the podcast and decide for yourself.

http://www.containsm...-it-personally/

Regards,

Roger Edwards[/i]

Another long post...

It's a nice podcast, but it rather misses the point, and it carries a lot of general assumptions that get in the way of your having a genuine discourse on the subject. The most glaring of these assumptions is that this kind of consumer reaction is something inherent and exclusive to gamers. It isn't. The British have a storied history of consumer rights campaigning - that the BBC have a program called Watchdog devoted to this sort of thing should demonstrate to everyone how seriously we treat our rights and our treatment at the hands of large companies. Believe me, I'd be making the same complaints if it was a baked bean manufacturer who had committed these offences against me and their other customers, and I'm pretty sure Mockingbird would be as well.

It seemed that you both arrived at this gaming-related conclusion before you even started the discussion and used it as a kicking off point rather than an ending. The title of the discussion itself makes this very clear. You both approached the subject with an air of incredulity and I think that skewed the debate.

You also seem to be under the despairing belief that unless the company whose conduct you are researching provides a vital public service, it doesn't matter what they do, and any time spent looking into their conduct is overkill and a sign of a saddo with no life or priorities just spoiling for a rumble. There was a great deal of the latter part of your debate that not only was full of inaccurate assumptions, but was also incredibly judgmental. You decided early on that the complainers were saddos and so your discussion became about how they are saddos, not about the matter at hand. At that point your whole debate was based on a false assumption.

I will, however, concede that on the official forums at least, the whole affair did become a rather unfocused bout of blame-throwing, as it were. I admit that I would have preferred the matter to stay on topic and civil, and it's a shame that some posters - no-one from this forum, thankfully - got a bit out of control. The trick with dealing with characters like Sapience is to remain calm and good-mannered, but to maintain persistent pressure for answers. That way you keep the moral high ground when the little coward disappears your posts.

All in all I would have preferred you to eschew the area of discussion that you chose to focus on and discuss the real meat of the issue.

To clarify my own standpoint - I can't vouch for the other more aggressive posters on the official forums - Turbine's status as a game developer and publisher is irrelevant, their customer service is demonstrably poor and certain consumers are making efforts to force them to improve it if they can't or won't under their own volition. This isn't a gaming or gamer matter - it's a customer service matter. You're making an error if you feel that I'm taking things too far because I'm a gamer with a skewed perspective on what's important - I'm talking about our consumer rights and they are always important, because to treat them as unimportant is to hand ourselves over to characters like those who run Turbine who would seek to take advantage of us.

We as consumers have a responsibility to ourselves and each other to ensure we're not being needlessly taken for a ride. That goes for gaming companies, travel agencies, banks, the works. We have a voice and it is a powerful one and quite often it has the law on its side. We should use the law to fight back against the companies who abuse their position whenever it's feasible for us to do so. We have a duty to fight against those who would seek to ignore our rights as Turbine have done.

As I have said before, anything less is irresponsible, complacent consumerism that will eventually erode the rights that we do have if we don't seek to enforce them. Maybe I'm selfish for only fighting the battles that cross my own path and grasp for my own wallet. But at least I'm fighting.

---

Back to the subject at hand, still no response from this Sheppard man, so come next week I'll be looking for the next name on the ladder to take things further.

I'll post a list of contact details at some point too, so anyone else can lodge complaints if they want to.

[Moderate Peril]

Hajile, I'm glad that you listened.

The discussion was not about your case per se. I simply used that as a starting point.

I made it clear that you were pursuing a point of consumer complaint. But I also made it clear that the subsequent "movement" shall we say has attracted a percentage of people who are simply interested in settling their own perceived scores.

This happens all the time in the wider world with any sort of campaign.

It is this wider group that I was focused on.

Also, like it or not, principle does not carry the clout that many people would like it too and rightly or wrongly, folk will think (exactly as you say)"unless the company whose conduct you are researching provides a vital public service, it doesn't matter what they do, and any time spent looking into their conduct is overkill and a sign of a saddo with no life" etc.

As for your last point "Maybe I'm selfish for only fighting the battles that cross my own path and grasp for my own wallet. But at least I'm fighting." that is the very issue that the nay sayers will latch on to.

As I said, the your complaint is one thing, but it isn't really your complaint any more, is it?

[Hajile]

Xusia of Delos, on 19 September 2011 - 01:35, said:

As for your last point "Maybe I'm selfish for only fighting the battles that cross my own path and grasp for my own wallet. But at least I'm fighting." that is the very issue that the nay sayers will latch on to.

As I said, the your complaint is one thing, but it isn't really your complaint any more, is it?

Thanks for the response.

It's true that my complaint is something separate to the internet kerfuffle that has arisen. I think it's important to draw a line between the genuine, official complaints and the forumites blowing off steam. My complaint remains my complaint, and is independent of the forum debate. I'm certainly not letting the current internet noise influence it, even if my contribution to the online discussion inadvertently stoked the fires somewhat.

Look at it this way - Turbine are never going to take seriously anything that anyone has to say on their own forums, for many reasons. Only posting there is really just pissing in the wind. However, those who are genuinely interested in affecting change are different from those who just like to have a moan, because the former are the ones who will make their grievances official as myself and Mockingbird have done. Ours are now official consumer rights complaints, and Turbine are going to have to take them seriously. If Turbine will treat them separately, I think that we should all avoid connecting them to the other.

As for the "nay-sayers" - I'm going to sound a bit mean here, but they can latch on to whatever they like. I genuinely couldn't care less what they say, because I'm not in this to debate the ins and outs of the matter with forum blowhards who think they speak on Turbine's behalf. I'm not interested in their semantics, their excuses to dismiss my point of view or their calling my character or motives into question, because I'm not talking to them. They're just barking at the moon. The only response that will have any value or merit to me will come from an official Turbine source.

That's why I was pressing Sapience so hard for answers. I had no idea he'd go to such lengths to avoid giving them.

[Vardiel]

I apparently said something true or scary in Lord of the Online Facebook page. All my comments have vanished, I was no longer "liking" them and I can't comment any more. Going invisible in official forums isn't enough apparently.

Edit:

I've been using FB via my mobile, so I don't have any screenshots. I got a few "likes" to my comment, but as FB doesn't have a quote feature, I can't reproduce the comment that apparently got me kicked out of the group.

[Moderate Peril]

Hajile, on 18 September 2011 - 23:09, said:

To clarify my own standpoint - I can't vouch for the other more aggressive posters on the official forums - Turbine's status as a game developer and publisher is irrelevant, their customer service is demonstrably poor and certain consumers are making efforts to force them to improve it if they can't or won't under their own volition. This isn't a gaming or gamer matter - it's a customer service matter. You're making an error if you feel that I'm taking things too far because I'm a gamer with a skewed perspective on what's important - I'm talking about our consumer rights and they are always important, because to treat them as unimportant is to hand ourselves over to characters like those who run Turbine who would seek to take advantage of us.

I have spent some time this afternoon re-reading all the relevant threads here and even braving the official LOTRO forums (had to scrub myself with steel wool afterwards).

I have on mature consideration, subtly altered my position on this matter, mainly because of Hajile's above point. It is this that needs to be the focal point of things and if possible, there needs to be a bit of distance between this matter and some of the accompanying "background noise" shall we say.

I am currently writing what I hope is a reasoned look at things on my Blog. I certainly think Scormus over at MMO Troll did a good job of quickly distilling the matter into a easily accessible video blog.

My interest lies with what Turbine does next. I somehow get the feeling that they are locked upon a heavy handed response and are institutionally incapable of deviating from their current game plan. We shall see.

[Hajile]

Xusia of Delos, on 19 September 2011 - 16:08, said:

I am currently writing what I hope is a reasoned look at things on my Blog. I certainly think Scormus over at MMO Troll did a good job of quickly distilling the matter into a easily accessible video blog.

My interest lies with what Turbine does next. I somehow get the feeling that they are locked upon a heavy handed response and are institutionally incapable of deviating from their current game plan. We shall see.[/i]

I'm thankful that you're continuing to look into the matter. If you need any more info on my complaints or perspective, by all means let me know.

[Mockingbird]

Xusia of Delos, on 19 September 2011 - 16:08, said:

I have on mature consideration, subtly altered my position on this matter, mainly because of Hajile's above point. It is this that needs to be the focal point of things and if possible, there needs to be a bit of distance between this matter and some of the accompanying "background noise" shall we say.

I am sure you can pull it off Xusia That background noise can often get very loud and it can be difficult to keep hold of the points that are important.

In writing my letter to the Attorney General I am often having to give myself a reality check and ask 'how is this point relevant to consumer law?'. It can be difficult to keep on track and to remain objective.

One of the main reasons this has become important to me is that Turbine started out with assurances as to what F2P would be a year ago, and it is clear in hindsight that they had no intention of keeping some of them and that really stinks. Players have spent the past year protesting on the forums each time Turbine have not kept to their word to very limited effect.

The thing is, Turbine seems to see lack of any 'real' action as a greenlight to go further and their promotion of ROI hits the nail on the head in that respect.

- they claim a paid product with the charactistics of a 'quest pack' as an 'expansion' so they can charge for it
- they promote features that are not part of the product
- they offer no clarification about their product features on the forum for twelve weeks despite numerous questions.
- they simultaneously do a heavy marketing campaign attempting to persuade players to pre-order and offering enticing pre-order bonuses.

I have never had any training in marketing nor will I claim to have a clue what I am talking about on the subject, but I am guessing someone who has done training covered in marketing 101 to be clear about what will be included in the product you are marketing and to be careful of consumer rights.

Turbine get to design and develop the game the way they want, they get to release information such as a launch date for ROI when they want. However, when they are selling a product they cannot lie about it or attempt to mislead consumers. When it comes to marketing that game and to some extent the in-game store (perhaps?) then they should be held to the legal standards set for all businesses. The legislation is there for a reason and we, as consumers, need to take responsibility for exercising the law to protect out interests.

The next step Turbine can potentially take is to start releasing more frequent expansions that are just like ROI. Precedent will have been set and in doing so their historical based definition of what an 'expansion' is will have been changed. If we speak up on legal grounds then we may end up protecting the future of lotro in terms of what can be classified as an expansion. If we just rollover and go with the flow then we are basically telling Turbine they can continue this way.

Many players say go play another MMO, but perhaps Turbine is setting new industry standards with their new approach to marketing to a F2P audience and if they can get away with underhand marketing tactics and make more money out of it then what is to stop other games companies until it becomes the norm? Some of us don't want to leave lotro because it isn't an mmo to us but Middle Earth - that doesn't mean we should have to go along with deceptive marketing practices.

[Spheric]

Xusia of Delos, on 19 September 2011 - 16:08, said:

I have spent some time this afternoon re-reading all the relevant threads here and even braving the official LOTRO forums (had to scrub myself with steel wool afterwards).

I have on mature consideration, subtly altered my position on this matter, mainly because of Hajile's above point. It is this that needs to be the focal point of things and if possible, there needs to be a bit of distance between this matter and some of the accompanying "background noise" shall we say.

I am currently writing what I hope is a reasoned look at things on my Blog. I certainly think Scormus over at MMO Troll did a good job of quickly distilling the matter into a easily accessible video blog.

My interest lies with what Turbine does next. I somehow get the feeling that they are locked upon a heavy handed response and are institutionally incapable of deviating from their current game plan. We shall see.

Retaining an open mind is critical to good reporting and sometimes very difficult, especially when there are so many distracting issues. The fact that you are attempting to do so is not only laudable, it is appreciated. This is still true no matter what ultimate conclusion you reach (if you even come to one). Thank you for that and continued good luck.

[The MMO Troll]

Hajile, on 31 July 2011 - 15:16, said:

I've already said that I'm not prepared to do that - it's irrelevant to the matter at hand and will simply muddy the waters of the messages I am attempting to convey to licensor, developer and other players. Please respect my wishes when I ask that you don't keep asking me to do so.

Indeed. Your reasons are your own, and I don't think it matters what was the impetus for wanting a refund. For someone else it might have been PvMP issues, for others the delayed instances, and for others still it might have been a lack of Skirmishes or a Housing update in RoI.

We would all do well to simply focus on the big picture, rather than Hajile's motivations that brought us to this place, because how we got here isn't the point.

[Dalthalion]

Lots of different pixels in that big picture.  While the reasons we got here may not compare to the whole, I believe that we can all agree that, given Turbine's current business practices, it was inevitable that we would get here.

[Memento Mori]

Hello everyone,

Once upon a time, I posted semi-regular on the old Codies LOTRO forums.

After a long time of reading but not participating otherwise in these forums, I decided to join up today.

I have been following this thread and it's sister along with the official forum (TB) threads, relating to ROI and the allegations of misconduct, bad customer service, illegal actions and such by TB with some interest!

I'm sure I have seen a few familiar names here and assume them to be the same people!

Remember this Cossie? (Coloured below;)

It will be fun to see all CM haters after the move, when they understand that Turbine is just as "bad" if not "worse"

You wont see them as Turbine are a lot stricter with regards to forum posts

Any way, on to my reply to this most interesting thread.

I remember a thread on the old CM forums where questions where asked about TB takeover and a poster asked about how non religious people may be treated unfairly (#227). The question was not avoided but was mocked or derided by some and somewhat derailed by a certain 'moderator' (I'll leave you to guess which one or you can read it!) Some argued the question was not valid for use in the thread in question - others backed up the poster and argued the question to be very much valid.

In the same thread, the same poster expressed worries about cultural differences between the US and UK (if not EU). In the thread, language differences where discussed and questions raised as to how using UK or EU terms or ways of talking may get a user into trouble. This question was barely replied to!

It seems the poster of those two questions had a little misinformation but was happy to be corrected on that. It also seemed that said poster kind of gave up on trying to get a good clear answer - particularly in relation to the cultural question.

Why do I point this out?

The answer is simple! Though having very different issues to the issue in this thread, the thread I link seems to show that a certain 'moderator' has been using evasive or otherwise bad customer service tactics (from the view of the customer) for a long time.

There seems to be a 'witch hunt' against a certain 'moderator' - I'm sure you all know which one - but it has been brought on by the seemingly bad tactics or strategies of TB and in a lot of ways the moderator.

Though I would hardly defend the moderator when shenanigans seem evident, I think that in this case we should not undermine the case leveled at TB by focusing entirely on that moderator (though I do realise the importance of reference to said.)

It is a real shame on TB that, instead of putting these issues regarding terretorial law to the forefront and doing something to calm the firestorm created, the company has tried to sweep the matter under the metaphorical carpet. I would really dislike it if the game and users thereof where to suffer over these issues. I have no sympathy towards TB in regard of the issues though and hope they are brought to account over this.

As for me making complaint, I paid for ROI pre-order and I am disgruntled some by what has transpired - especially where it seems I have paid fr something that others will get for free. As I suspect it is with others though, I would not know where to begin in making my complaint formal. I also suspect TB are aware of such and are relying on many customers not formalising complaints for that very reason.

Thank you for a most interesting read all. I will continue to follow this with interest.

[Hajile]

Memento Mori, on 20 September 2011 - 17:39, said:

As for me making complaint, I paid for ROI pre-order and I am disgruntled some by what has transpired - especially where it seems I have paid fr something that others will get for free. As I suspect it is with others though, I would not know where to begin in making my complaint formal. I also suspect TB are aware of such and are relying on many customers not formalising complaints for that very reason.

I'll help you out in this regard - here are the various contact details I've accumulated over the course of my complaints:

Turbine customer services (snort):
Scott Sheppard
Senior Manager, Customer Service
ssheppard@turbine.com
(781)-407-4223

Warner Interactive:
Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment
FAO Complaints Department
4000 Warner Boulevard
Burbank, CA 91522

Middle-earth Enterprises:
Middle-earth Enterprises
Director of Licensing
2600 Tenth Street
Berkeley, CA 94710
USA

Consumer Direct (UK Only):
http://www.direct.go...nline/DG_195913
08454 04 05 06
[[NOTE]] These guys handle all initial enquiries that would be destined for Trading Standards or the Office of Fair Trading.

Digital River UK Ltd:
International Offices
85 King Street
Maidenhead
Berkshire
SL6 1DU
United Kingdom
sales@digitalriver.com

Those are the ones I've got hold of so far.

[The MMO Troll]

Dalthalion, on 20 September 2011 - 17:10, said:

Lots of different pixels in that big picture.  While the reasons we got here may not compare to the whole, I believe that we can all agree that, given Turbine's current business practices, it was inevitable that we would get here.

True. Things have been going downhill for a while now, and I for one am sad to see it. Once upon a time, my old friends in WoW used to joke I was a Turbine fanboi, because I gushed about the game so much, and how well it was run by Turbine (in comparison to Blizzard). Now I realize I still play mostly because my wife plays LOTRO and I have a Lifetime account. The game is fun, but Turbine disappoints me to no end since they took the game F2P, and I have a really hard time defending them at all anymore.

My wife and I both plan on playing GW2 when it launches, and I suspect if she enjoys it, we'll be turning off her VIP account before her next billing cycle (she's on the Annual payment plan).

[Jackalope]

The MMO Troll, on 20 September 2011 - 18:23, said:

True. Things have been going downhill for a while now, and I for one am sad to see it. Once upon a time, my old friends in WoW used to joke I was a Turbine fanboi, because I gushed about the game so much, and how well it was run by Turbine (in comparison to Blizzard). Now I realize I still play mostly because my wife plays LOTRO and I have a Lifetime account. The game is fun, but Turbine disappoints me to no end since they took the game F2P, and I have a really hard time defending them at all anymore.

My wife and I both plan on playing GW2 when it launches, and I suspect if she enjoys it, we'll be turning off her VIP account before her next billing cycle (she's on the Annual payment plan).

If they claim it's wonky, then the simple thing is for someone to repost those missing posts somewhere, because Turbine really wouldn't be against that, would they? The missing posts are now there to be read by all. How can that be bad?

However, it's obvious to me at least what they are doing. As for his claims that he still has ROI content and got a refund, if he screenshot himself in game and and redacted a refund with it, and posted that here at least, and on the official site, wouldn't that simply lend yet more credibility to him and even less to Sap et. al. When the man tries to silence you, you have to fight back by being even more open

Force the issue. Either Zwei got moderated into oblivion and they are clearly lying about it, or fix his forum access.

[Fuin]

Truth be told for people not using Turbine forums to voice their disappointment, movement to their servers wasn't a bad deal at all. Servers are stable, there are fewer maintenances, we get updates at same time as US, we have MYLOTRO, direct communication with devs, okay customer support, helpful in game GMs and You could even pay for RoI in US $ avoiding stupid exchange rates. So I wouldn't say that's Turbine services are bad.

Of course I know some of the CM "sins"(later updates, lack of MYLOTRO, dev communication) might be as well done on purpose by Turbine but that doesn't change my feeling I get better deal now.

Finally I didn't become Turbine Defender™ and I'm fully aware about censorship on their forums and I really miss CM forums where moderation and staff was really awesome and did fantastic job. I really miss hot yet quite civil debates between people, that are nearly impossible at Turbine, as You'll get borderline trolling fanboys posts and any reply in similar tone yields locked topic and infractions(only for You that is, fanboys are safe). But then we all knew it before...

[Memento Mori]

Hajile, on 20 September 2011 - 18:03, said:

I'll help you out in this regard - here are the various contact details I've accumulated over the course of my complaints:



Those are the ones I've got hold of so far.

I have just got home after going to see a comedian at a theatre - very tired!

Thank you for the links /addresses Hajile.

When I am less tired, I will reconsider my position with regards to my complaint and certainly look at ConsumerDirect.

The other links will be useful should I decide to go further and likewise for any one else that wants to do similar.

BTW ZWIE.... twoflower was great in DW but my favorite character is (probably but not definitely) Death!