11 replies to this topic

[Dalthalion]

With RoI, I've been able to observe the changes to champions in three different ways.

The first observation was while playing my level 65 Ardour/two-weapon champion.  Before RoI, one of my main goals while playing him was to keep the defeat response abilities active (Ardent Flurry, Red Haze, Blocking Blades), but now I just have to activate what I want when I need it.  It's an interesting change-of-pace, with a little bit of a learning curve

The second observation was while playing my lvl 18 Ardour/sword-and-board champion.  I had read that champions were going "shield-less," so I had fully expected to see my shield unequipped, but there it was.  I know that the potential for using heavy shields is no longer an option, but I have to wonder if something got missed.  Will I lose the ability to re-equip a shield once it is un-equipped?  I'm not certain.

The third observation was while watching being fellowed with my friend's lvl 44 Fervour/two-hander champion.  Several quotes include:  "Don't make me any more power potions; Second Wind gives me enough power not to need them [I told him, "Just you wait."]", "Flurry is so cool now!" and "Beware my crits! Ha-hah! *he activates Boast skill* *I /facepalm*"  I guess he's having more fun now.

[cossieuk]

Dalthalion, on 04 October 2011 - 00:49, said:

The second observation was while playing my lvl 18 Ardour/sword-and-board champion.  I had read that champions were going "shield-less," so I had fully expected to see my shield unequipped, but there it was.  I know that the potential for using heavy shields is no longer an option, but I have to wonder if something got missed.  Will I lose the ability to re-equip a shield once it is un-equipped?  I'm not certain.

It is a bug that will be fixed in a patch before update 5

Quote

This was an error that slipped through. It will be rectified. Champions are not supposed to be allowed to use shields of any shape or size.

This will be fixed before Update 5.

http://forums.lotro....159#post5737159

[Dalthalion]

It's a pity, and it's not like Orion to be this dogmatic.  Certainly there were few shield champions, but it was nice to have the choice, especially for the OP of the topic you linked to.  I think I've been inspired to insert my first poll here.  Thank you, Cossie.

[Spheric]

Yeah, it's kinda odd how they keep fixing stuff that isn't broken and leave the broken stuff alone. Weird, actually.

[Vardiel]

Spheric, on 04 October 2011 - 20:13, said:

Yeah, it's kinda odd how they keep fixing stuff that isn't broken and leave the broken stuff alone. Weird, actually.

It seems like a bunch of ADHD (ADD?) kids running the show. Rather than checking their "to-do (to-fix)" list, they get an idea, "oh yea hey I could make minstrels use poetry instead of music!" or something as dumb.

I for one will miss my sword and board dwarf adventures. A nice big two-handed axe seems to be what cool kids use these days anyway.

[Thrabath]

I voted no, although i agree with everyone that they should focus on stuff that really needs an improvement, this change makes a better distinction between the champion and the guardian.

I really liked tanking, but we were getting closer and closer to making the guardian useless. For the champion, this isn't the best change, for the balance of the game and the usefullness of the guardian, it is.

And the champion should be a pure DPS-er in my opinion, although i know everyone has different opinions

and, at least the first couple of lvl's a shield is completely useless in dunland

[Vardiel]

Thrabath, on 05 October 2011 - 08:17, said:

I voted no, although i agree with everyone that they should focus on stuff that really needs an improvement, this change makes a better distinction between the champion and the guardian.

I really liked tanking, but we were getting closer and closer to making the guardian useless. For the champion, this isn't the best change, for the balance of the game and the usefullness of the guardian, it is.

And the champion should be a pure DPS-er in my opinion, although i know everyone has different opinions

and, at least the first couple of lvl's a shield is completely useless in dunland

I do agree on a few things: Champs are not Guards. Being able to off-tank is nice in case there's no Wards or Guards around. But heavy shield is a bit.. heavy. Still, I will miss my shield dorf.

Champs main deal is damage, area damage. That they can tank via aggro caused by damage is nice, maybe that is how it should go. But can the healers keep them alive (not in Fervour I recon)?

This change makes heavy shield Guards only, like "medium" shield is Wardens only. Does this mean heavy shield stats should be changed to better fit Guardians, maybe even in the future have a Legendary Shield?

[Darmokk]

Shame, really.

My champ was the only character that could wear any armour (now all can) and do all of sword+board, dual handed and dual wield.

But hey - it's not that I had the bag space to support changing equipment anyway

[Dalthalion]

Thrabath, on 05 October 2011 - 08:17, said:

And the champion should be a pure DPS-er in my opinion, although i know everyone has different opinions

Very well.  In that case, a guardian should be a pure tank, and Overpower and its related skills should be replaced by skills that reflect the use of a shield.  After all, they are not a DPS class, by that logic.

Right, I wasn't taking that seriously either.  My point is that Champions should be left the choice, even as guardians have a choice.

[Maelendil]

I didn't vote, as a simple yes/no answer would not be reasonable here: either you keep the armor buff from your defensive skill (can't remember the name), or you don't and then you can equip a shield (even heavy if you wish to).


To have a clear view of the interactions between guards, champions and wardens, we would need much more data on real fights than what we can have as players. Only Turbine devs can get this amount of data, tracking the amount of threat produced, damage output and heals received (removing the over-heal) during a typical fight for hundreds (or rather thousands) of players. Only with this amount of data can you really understand what are the real differences in live between the different classes. Otherwise you are too dependent on the players skill, the dedication put into gearing and prepping for a fight, and for players with more than one class the personal preference which comes into play.

You are supposedly better tanks now than ever before, even when you could carry a heavy shield. We will probably have a better picture of the general impression from raid leaders on the different tank classes in the next few months. For now we can only give first impressions and say what we think will be happening next. My first impression are:
- Champions can now main tank and still do more DPS than a tanking guard.
- In a fight with many mobs the guardians might have an edge because of the easier aggro generation.
- Wardens are definitely the aggro kings, but since tactical aggro has been boosted guardians are already aggroing enough.
- Starting a fight is even harder than before for Wardens, to get all the buff running while ensuring the initial aggro lead.

These are impressions, I have no proofs of my statements and we be happy to hear different opinions.

[Hravenlandeye]

The loss of shields has inspired my first posts to these forums.  I would of selected the Champion just because it was a DW damage dealer, but I was really in love with it because i could use a shield and a bow as well. I didn't play for a while do to some personal stuff and when i came back to find I could no longer play the character as I set him up to me, it was pretty disheartening.  

If the Champ is meant to be THE damage dealer, then I need to see my champ hit harder than my hunter.

If the reason for taking the shield away from the champ is to help the guards, why do we have other hybrids like wardens?

I like all the classes and have a champion, loremaster, hunter, warden, burglar, and runekeeper.  I have always thought they all played very differently.

[Raedwulf]

You're under a misapprehension. I am aware that I am going against the MMO terminology tide here, but the Champ is The Nuker; the Hunter is the sniper. The latter does massive damage to a single target; the former spreads it around. Against a single target, no, you won't out damage a Hunter, but that's not what you're designed for. Any fight that involves a bunch of mobs, you'll finish much quicker than a squishy Hunter will.

And there's another thing. Every Hunter I've ever talked to (me included) finds soloing an Elite harder on the Hunter than on any other class; you can forget soloing an EM. On a CHM it's a doddle. The loss of the shield has done nothing to damage tanking either. I ought to know. Not only is a CHM one of my two mains, I'm also a raid leader. In Orthanc, so far, I've not had the luxury of having more than a single Guardian (and no Wardens). A shieldless tnaking CHM is doing just fine when I need it.