29 replies to this topic

[Sincilbanks]

Interesting blog by the CCP CEO (Makers and publishers of Eve Online)

http://www.eveonline...=blog&nbid=2672

And the follow up...

http://www.eveonline...=blog&nbid=2428

[Vardiel]

Some games have it better than others. EVE has had its share of problems, but it's one of the better ones still.

Imagine Sapience opening up like that? No, I didn't either.

[LordVorontur]

Vardiel, on 06 October 2011 - 13:14, said:

Some games have it better than others. EVE has had its share of problems, but it's one of the better ones still.

Imagine Sapience opening up like that? No, I didn't either.

Of course, it wouldn't be Sapience, if it was the same situation as EVE
No, as regards Sapience, I do not believe there will ever be openness and honesty from him. It will be lies, lies and more lies, especially as regards the moderation of forums.

[Sincilbanks]

Actually thats the CEO of CCP making that post. The main man running the company, not a community representative.

[Mockingbird]

Sincilbanks, on 06 October 2011 - 13:42, said:

Actually thats the CEO of CCP making that post. The main man running the company, not a community representative.

I don't know EVE at all but I got that impression. So has EVE actually had the same CEO since its beginnings? Is it all one person's vision?

I don't think lotro can ever hope for that anymore. It does remind me in a minor way of the dev diary that told the story about what they had intended for Radiance to become and what happened along the way that made it into the unpopular version it turned into. I did like that dev diary as it sounded honest and genuine to me.

[Validoom]

As an Eve player let me shed some light.

Over the past few months there has been a huge outcry from the community on the forums to in game protests and media coverage over how the game is progressing.

There has been 3 main issues that caused the outcry.

1. People believing CCP are developing World of Darkness at the expenses of Eve as well using Eve as a test bed for new technologies for WoD.

2. The introduction of a In game store and the prices of those items

3. Extremely poor communication from within CCP to the players.

Yes the CEO has made a blog in which he apologises for the big mistakes and the attitude towards the player base. Now this may be genuine or it might be just a ploy to stop the falling PCU numbers. Only time will tell.

What people need to remember about Eve is that CEO is not just some guy who owns and run CCP. The CEO is THE GUY who thought of Eve and took it from a concept to the MMO that we have today.

The best way to describe the CEO of Eve would be like me or you thinking of a MMO, designing it, creating it, coding it, building a company to support it and expand it.

The wonderful thing about Eve is that it is completely different to any MMO on the market and I doubt that we will ever see another MMO in the same mold as Eve.

[SellingTheDrama]

Validoom, on 06 October 2011 - 13:52, said:

The best way to describe the CEO of Eve would be like me or you thinking of a MMO, designing it, creating it, coding it, building a company to support it and expand it.

The wonderful thing about Eve is that it is completely different to any MMO on the market and I doubt that we will ever see another MMO in the same mold as Eve.

so EVE's CEO is a lot like Notch and his Minecraft.

[Spheric]

Remarkable post (blog). I have a very difficult time believing he isn't sincere. Of course, we don't really know what caused his change in approach. I would imagine that he probably believes that a pissed-off customer base is not likely to increase his bottom line. Imagine that. He may even have recent evidence to support that conjecture.

I'm trying to imagine Kate Paiz doing anything similar. Yeah, right. When hell freezes over. You see, she fully understands that how one's customers feel about an MMO product doesn't mean a darn thing. Nothing at all (or, to be fair, very little -- at least not enough to concern themselves with).

I imagine LOTRO's earnings have probably increased enough with her running the show for her to collect her bonuses (I believe every employee in a position such as hers probably has bonuses built into their contract). So, no one (especially her) probably wants to even consider how much more that increase might have been if they'd handled things differently. She's apparently proved her point. And therefore, the beat goes on...

IMHO

[Mockingbird]

Spheric, on 06 October 2011 - 20:01, said:

I imagine LOTRO's earnings have probably increased enough with her running the show for her to collect her bonuses (I believe every employee in a position such as hers probably has bonuses built into their contract). So, no one (especially her) probably wants to even consider how much more that increase might have been if they'd handled things differently. She's apparently proved her point. And therefore, the beat goes on...

I think you may be right about the bonuses. Thing is, contrary to what they would have us believe lotro going F2P isn't a proven success yet. If she is smart perhaps she will jump ship and let someone else clean up the mess.

The reason why I say F2P isn't a proven success yet with lotro is that unless the MT transactions from premium players are sufficient to sustain the game long term without any subscriptions (or even ex-subscribers sticking around happy to continue playing the MT model of the game, as I am sure some will) then the revenues will drop.

I won't claim to have a clue what I am talking about so this is purely my own logic at work here. The way I see it though is that during its first three years lotro built up a strong and loyal subscriber base. Going F2P may have increased the number of active players but will those numbers last long term? Well of course not, the initial rush to find out what lotro is like without paying is over. Some of the rest will stay, some will leave and others will join but its not likely that the number of active players will rise significantly unless they hype something up again the way they did ROI.

Thing is people learn and ROI does not seem to be the success in practice that the sales resulting from hype indicate. So next time a lotro expansion is hyped (even if it has the goods) it is less likely to have the same impact and no doubt there will be raised eyebrows and jokes made even if such a hyped expansion were to have the intended positive impact.

Oh dear, I have lost the plot! Let's try the short version;

Short Version: Long term loyal customers stuck out the past year to see where things would go or in the hope that their initial concerns wouldn't be validated. I think the next year will show a different picture as the old 'loyal' subscriber base decides whether they still want to stick around for the full on MT version of Middle Earth where everything has a price tag.

[Dalthalion]

It's admirable that they came out with a forthright message.  Still, I think everyone there would have had a greater benefit from a more complete dialogue between the owners and the players before the changes were decided upon.  Yet, there is hindsight being 20/20 and all that.

[Jackalope]

I just like the fact that it's a communication from the top, and not filtered through flunkies. The guy feels responsible, as a CEO should. Very refreshing.

[Spheric]

Jackalope, on 06 October 2011 - 21:58, said:

I just like the fact that it's a communication from the top, and not filtered through flunkies. The guy feels responsible, as a CEO should. Very refreshing.

I find it hard to believe that he didn't at least vet it before posting. But, he obviously holds the biggest hammer, so...

Indeed, I find it refreshing myself. Even if it is BS, which I sincerely doubt.

[Darmokk]

If this doesn't show that MMORPG players can start a revolt that the developer notices I don't know what will.

MMORPGs are not normal games. You piss off the old customers, they can't simply leave, because they have large existing investments in the game. In time, and in many games now in non-subscription money. They will not tug in their tails and go to a shiny new game before wielding the leverage they have.  If they have a point that can be made clear enough to outsiders (namely the half-specialized press), they have quite a bit of leverage.

Eve has from the beginning been marketed as a game for the sturdy, people who don't give up easily and who stand up after beaten down. Well, this is the result. LOTRO is a game marketed for more mature audiences than most fantasy MMORPGs.  Now Turbine is surprised that some people in there don't flee the scene like scared children (because, well, they are not) after their money was taken and potential new customers are considered more important.

I am pretty sure LOTRO will be next in line for a "CEO apology" letter (in our case not the CEO). The only risk is that WB might prefer to simply close the game. Where "close" means let it run on autopilot until the last user turns off the the light.

[Khafar]

Darmokk, on 06 October 2011 - 22:19, said:

MMORPGs are not normal games. You piss off the old customers, they can't simply leave, because they have large existing investments in the game.

Hmm... different strokes, I guess. Or maybe I'm just weird. When I tire of a game, I leave. I usually don't look back, either. I spent over two years following SWG avidly, was among the first 100 testers chosen in beta, and really, really wanted to love the game. But I didn't, so I left (after about 4 months). When I got tired of my very favorite MMO of all time (AC), I left. I didn't agonize over it for months, make all sorts of posts about it at Crossroads of Dereth, or anything else - I just said goodbye to friends, gave away my best stuff, and moved on. I view MMOs as entertainment, and when my entertainment is no longer fun... I look for new entertainment.

I've been taking more breaks from LOTRO as time has marched on, and will be leaving once again to play SWTOR in December. Will I be back some day? Probably, at least once the next expansion arrives - who wouldn't want to see Rohan? But I doubt I'll stay long then either. I don't really blame anyone for this, though... it's just the natural sort of boredom that sets in when you've played the same game for 5+ years. Things that would have seemed new and exciting 4 years ago are ho-hum now. I've played every class. I've done thousands of quests, many times each. I've run hundreds of skirmishes, crafted half a bazillion things, etc. Etc, etc. The fact that I'm still playing is far more surprising than the fact that I'm looking for something new.

Anyway, on the OP: well done to CCP's CEO, and I hope the players will respond well to it. Leadership is unfortunately an uncommon trait.

Khafar

[LordVorontur]

One could only hope that there is someone high up in the top brass of those responsible for the delivery of LOTRO that see the sense in doing this kind of thing.

[cossieuk]

I guess it is a lot easier for the CEO of a small independent company to do this than it is for larger companies that have shareholders to please

[Vardiel]

cossieuk, on 06 October 2011 - 23:48, said:

I guess it is a lot easier for the CEO of a small independent company to do this than it is for larger companies that have shareholders to please

A very good point. CEO of Turbine (or WB) most likely couldn't post a similar blog note. I wouldn't mind some sincerity shown though. I would even do something very un-Finland-ish and join a revolt with other Lotro playing customers if someone organized it. I think EVE players did rise some major hell, unlike Lotro players (outside this forum ).

[SellingTheDrama]

Vardiel, on 07 October 2011 - 06:44, said:

A very good point. CEO of Turbine (or WB) most likely couldn't post a similar blog note. I wouldn't mind some sincerity shown though. I would even do something very un-Finland-ish and join a revolt with other Lotro playing customers if someone organized it. I think EVE players did rise some major hell, unlike Lotro players (outside this forum ).

ya...EVE players pretty much rioted in-game.

they were doing co-ordinated attacks on trading posts and such throughout the game at the same time.

closest lotro could come to that(and almost impossible to do) would be multi-raid sized groups of folks all showing up say..outside the mayor's office in Bree to protest.

thats where EVE gives players a distinct advantage being all one giant server.

[MarkJ]

That kind of transparency from the CEO makes me want to start playing that game. Turbine would never take such steps.

I especially like this bit concerning Eve's foray into micro-transactions;

Quote

The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.

[Mabusian]

Which could mean: The investment of money... should give you a fair advantage over the investment of time.

But I don't know any other game like LotRO where you can really invest time instead of money to buy anything you want. Guild Wars, WoW, Eve, all other shops have items you only get with money. Only LotRO has the concept where you can earn a nearly unlimited amount of shop currency ingame. So no need to whine on this point.