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Tribulation last won the day on March 20 2014

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  1. Was about to give ESO another try. Looks very like what happened to Lotro. Lotro we had Turbine points, ESO we have crowns. Time will tell as to whether they wreck the game with their shop or just compliment it. Based on previous experiences, I have my doubts, but will hold my breath on the offchance
  2. And yet another example of the lack of integration into the UK, from "The Muslim Law Shariah Council UK" http://www.shariahcouncil.org/?page_id=28
  3. With regards to the above post I made 5 days ago, this video from a Muslim shows exactly what I mean
  4. I don't agree with a LOT of what Doro says, but I fully understand why he says and thinks it. It seems because he is prepared to say what he thinks and why, others feel the easiest argument is to label him some sort of hater. I'm a Christian, I don't think Doro could have been any more clear he hates the Christian religion as much as the Muslim one (and as a Christian, I fully understand why he and loads of others think like that, ) I'm, enjoying this debate, well I was, now it feels like it's been turned into a sort of personal attack, rather than answer any point, lets just say bigot etc. I would join in again, but I've tried to make it clear why there's so much distrust in the UK about Muslims, I've tried to show people what the UK Muslim women are saying, how little response they have had from Mosques etc, but that wasn't worthy of any reply, far easier to pick on Doro? I hadn't even started with my evidence, I haven't even started quoting/linking some of the UK Muslim forums that show how the men think of women etc. But what's the point, far far easier to pick on the one person in this thread who hasn't given up on speaking how they feel about religion as a whole, and trying to find labels for him instead.. which is an entirely different thing from hating Judism. On a separate note, just come across these videos and, if you don't want to listen to all 50 mins, listen from 26 mins to some of the q and a
  5. While I don't agree with everything Doro says, resorting to name calling kind of makes any point you are making, meaningless. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, usually opinions are formed over time for various reasons, many times those opinions and reasons are wrong, many times they are right, many times its how some thing looks to the average person, and we are never totally sure what's going on. But not being able to discuss with others without resorting to abuse, don't care who it is, pro Muslim, anti Muslim or whatever, to me when ANYONE starts down that route, they haven't got anything positive (regardless of view point) to add to the conversation. As I quoted earlier, the UK Muslim women themselves are concerned about their horiffing treatment by UK men. OK, sure many men will be loving husbands, but it's very very obvious there's a huge problem with how women are both seen and treated, and from what those women imply, they are facing hard times getting UK mosques to change. I struggle to accept a religion that appears its normal to treat women like that, can really be considered all that peaceful. I know Judaism also has problems with the treatment of women (although I don't THINK violence is one of them). I know Chistian churches are also male dominated, but women Preachers do exist, most churches women are encouraged to speak, pray out loud etc, even churches with all male leadership encourage women to get involved, have no problem with women speakers etc. Again, I'm only interested about 2015, not the babric stuff all 3 of these religions have done in the past. And if you go to that UK Muslim woman's Web site http://www.mwnuk.co.uk/Muslim_Women_RISING_against_VIOLENCE_Mosque_Postcard_Campaign__17_cd.php#B2 You will see that out of 100 mosques contacted in 2013, so far only 1 has responded. On a side note, the last line of post 380 is seen as being offensive to most Christians, but the poster still has the right to say it.
  6. I have to side with Doro on this, although I am trying to be fair as all 3 of the main religions have their highs and lows in my opinion. Based on the UK. based on the FACT that about 1/4 of mosques wont' even let women on the premises, based on the fact that those that do, they are kept separate from the men etc, the simple fact is, the impression the muslim faith gives to the average person ont he street is that they do treat women as second class citizens (as has Christianity in the past etc, but we are talking about today) There is article after article about the treatment of women in the Islam faith today. here's a few http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,185647,00.html Or in the UK http://www.mwnuk.co.uk/Muslim_Women_RISING_against_VIOLENCE_Mosque_Postcard_Campaign__17_cd.php To quote that site which is a site run BY Muslim women in the UK I've used the wrong term again Whether it's actually called an empire or not, the fact is, that in the past, Islam had invaded and taken over a far greater amount of countries etc than the British did at the height of their empire.
  7. Please don't get me wrong, for every word I could quote/write about say the Muslims treatment of Jews, I could quote/write far worse about the Christians treatment of them. Christians and Jews were still treated as second class citizens though. And if I understand correctly, throughout the Islamic empire, other faiths were ONLY tolerated once the countries had fallen to Islam In other words countries were invaded, took over and became a Muslim state and only then were Christians and Jews allowed to live there, providing of course they paid their special taxes they were charged as they wouldn't convert (and for example in Jerusalem, the wearing of special clothes to show whether they were Jew or Christian, having to walk on the left of Muslims, not allowed saddles on their horses, not allowed to speak at funerals etc etc etc The history of the area that I've read ( a lot) , whether the author is Muslim, Christian or Jewish, depends on how the arguments are obviously put forwards, hence read a Muslim article, they were the good ones, read a Christian article, they were the good ones etc. An interesting read for me was (all good, but page 18 onwards for around the time s we're talking about) http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/The%20Persian%20conquest%20of%20Jerusalem%20in%20614CE%20compared%20with%20Islamic%20conquest%20of%20638CE.pdf What that shows to me is that all sides were at one point or another as bad as each other. My mistake, I apologise, too many conversations going on and me typing on a tablet while tired.. What I initially quoted in another forum, that I got from from http://www1.american.edu/ted/hpages/jeruselum/muslim.htm and was referring to when I typed that was
  8. Which as I said earlier (I think, too many forums) could simplicity be seen as if the Muslims hadn't destroyed 2000 odd Christian churches in Jerusalem, the crusades would never have happened.
  9. The simple truth (n my opinion) is it boils down to something all religions suffer from. 1) The congregation not wanting to rock the boat, the congregations not wanting to upset their leaders, usually out of fear of being cast out etc. 2) The leaders using control techniques of various measures to make the congregation not dare publicly question things. Catholics worship the Pope more than they worship God (from what I can see), I know a fair few Irish people and they all say that the priests rule, the people are scared stiff of upsetting them. Christians (in the UK) suffer from a real power and control problem, Dare to question the leadership about anything and usually you get the line "are you with us or against us" and they then quote for example Hebrews 13:17 at you I have witnessed first hand, extreme cruelty in the Christian church to those at a time they need the church most. I have heard church member after church member complain behind their backs. These same members when I say "why don't you tell them" say words along the lines of "Because I don't want to be yet another person forced to leave for dare questioning them" I did question them, as a result, not only was my membership terminated, but also my wife's who had said nothing and is the most caring and loving individual you could ever meet. I was then referred to as Satan in the next meeting (I have a recording of it) and many people told me they were horrified, but no one had the guts to say so to the leadership (and many jokes were made to my wife by my friends at the church along the lines of "what's it like to be married to Satan". on a side note: ------------------------ Lots of letters went to and from me, my church and the churches head office (not correct term, but you know what I mean) , one of the things I stressed in EVERY letter was that my wife deserves an apology for being expelled just for being married to me, and I received loads of responses, not one addressed or even mentioned this. My son and daughter are both atheists now, their main reason, what they witnessed in the church while growing up, how much the church hurt their mum etc and to be honest, I'm not surprised they are, the whole thing sickens me and I doubt I'll ever go to a so called Christian church in the UK again ------------------------- and when church members complained to me about my treatment and I say "why don't you tell them", they say "look what happened to your wife, and she didn't even say anything " Yes I'm still very very angry 5 years later . Worse still is when people finally have enough and go to another Church, the other church don't want them to become members unless they have made peace with their previous church, so although most left that church hating it, those same people lie to the leaders of both churches, saying things like "I feel God wants me to move to this other Church," etc then the original church starts believing all is OK when it isn't. I could literally write 100 pages on my experiences at one single church near me alone.But sadly my experience isn't limited to that one church or that one denomination (New Frontiers) But my point is, this is a Christian church full of people that can leave when they want, choose to turn up to etc and they ALL chose to complain behind the leaders backs but do NOTHING. Most have non Christian friends as well as Christians ones, it's not a part of their whole community like I get the impression the Muslim faith is. If Christians give in this easily due to the clever ways their leaders twist words, how much more likely is it in a community of Muslims where the faith is most of their community and a big part of their culture, that it's going to be far worse to question their leaders? And when you have a religion where an entire gender has virtually no say, this is an even bigger problem as if every single Muslim woman in the UK wanted to speak out against their leadership, I expect every single one would be scared to do so. When you live in fear of your leaders, regardless of your beliefs, it never ends well.
  10. Actually Doro has a point. It might not be true (then again it could be) , but the impression they do give is that the majority (in the UK) do sympathise. We can only give our opinions based on what we see and hear for ourselves. Of course not all we read and see is correct, neither will all you see and hear be correct. If I or you visit a mosque or a series of mosques throughout the world, there's a big chance most are going to be against extremism, or at lease they are going to imply that to you and me,. That does not really mean that are against it, neither does it mean they are supporting it. I used to co-run the UK side of IT for a well known UK clothing company. The buyers would make many visits to their factories in the likes of India to check all was OK, no slave labour. Guess what, almost every single time everything was perfect as that is what the factories wanted to portray. Then we have the undercover news-night (or something similar) showing children in sweat shops making our clothes. I base my comments on what I see in the UK. I base it on how over the past 20 years Islam in the UK seem to have got more extreme (not talking about radicals and people fighting for Syria etc). Years ago they seemed to integrate much more (or possibly it was because they were left to themselves and no one paid them any attention), we didn't see them demanding the right to cover their faces 20+ years ago, this is a recent thing. There's been numerous so called honour killings where brothers. fathers etc have killed daughters because of their choice of a western lifestyle. Or even world wide Female castration is outlawed for obvious reasons, but is still often carried out in the UK, yet in 2013, it was estimated 20,000 girls living in the UK under 15 yrs of age were at risk (estimated by the government) and that 60,000 were living with the consequences. Then there's forced marriages where the government had to change the law to try and stop it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27830815 I wonder how many Muslims dead against extremism, would tell on their freinds if they new they were getting their daughter castrated, or sending her abroad to be married etc, When this is the main side of the Muslim faith the average person in the street gets to hear about, then we see extremists, well I'm, sorry, but no matter how wrong that impression might be, that is the impression they currently give.
  11. stupid formatting, re-written below
  12. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. However I want to make one thing very very very clear. From the outset I have tried to say that I couldn't care less what people choose to believe in or not to believe in. I have said what it's beginning to feel like in the UK, and trust me, I am far far far more tolerant than most people I see, if I have niggling worries, others will be talking about getting out their pitchforks. Unlike most, I have little problem with immigration, I am glad I belong to the EU. Racism is something I have never ever ever been able to comprehend. I simply cannot get my head around how someone can hate someone else just due to the colour of their skim, it simply doesn't add up to me. This is nothing to do with race, it's about a particular religious group acting in a way that goes against many things the UK stands for. It isn't just about extremists. But add the extremists on top and it's understandable why so many people are giving their views Years ago we had working mens clubs, clubs just for men, no women allowed, they had to change their rules as it was deemed illegal. Fair enough. Now we have mosques where women aren't allowed. And a blind eye is turned. It's the double standard that has many people in the UK on edge. Nearly everyone is scared stiff of offending a Muslim. A friend of my daughters worked for a recruitment agency in London last year, upon starting she was told, "we don't send out anyone called Mohammed" That sounds blatantly wrong. A few years ago I employed two muslims, We worked in a 24/7 computer room. I asked them just as I asked all people of any religion etc if they are prepared to work any shift even if it falls on a religious holiday. I stressed that if cover could be found, then shift swaps could be made. But if it couldn't, they would be expected to work. No problem they both said. One of them was the nicest guy you could meet, he stuck to his word, the other one took every single one of his religious holidays off sick. Now, if anyone else did that (every public holiday, Christmas etc) they would be given warnings and finally fired. I was not allowed to even warn this guy as the company was scared stiff of being taken to court. End result was that the other IT staff harboured resentment, one rule for them one rule for others, and I said, "fine, I'll never employ another Muslim then" and I never did. Now I know that wasn't the average Muslims fault, but its what our society has become. Only last week I heard people talking of this leading to a war. I believe we need to discuss this, it's a very very very real problem int he UK, there's a LOT of hatred towards Muslims,. I have no hatred to wards them, but that doesn't stop me being worried with what I see happening. One of the biggest causes of this in my opinion is for when people try to discuss it, they get called haters etc or have it implied they are anti Muslim etc. It needs to be discussed, the Imams need to get out of their Mosques, get on TV more and talk to non Muslims, because at the moment, there's one or two while the rest remain silent. The Government needs to make sure that laws applied to one section of society is also applied to all others. I get it, you have had great experiences with Muslims, Guess what, So have I. But the few Muslim friends I know are very very very reluctant to get drawn into any conversation about extremism, woman's rights etc. and in my opinion, they are not doing themselves any favours. When for example we have more British born Muslims fighting in Syria than in the armed forces, alarm bells do ring, and your personal experience is not going to change that, sorry.
  13. ROFL, reminds me of about 16 years ago, on a stag weekend in Amsterdam, turned out it was a Gay pride weekend and 7 out of 10 honestly had the stereotypical skimpy leather shorts, string vest and flat cap
  14. These quotes from someone else says what I think.(have to be registered to read) http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5147767&page=45
  15. I could easily say "And you presume they do something because ?" Because of the evidence. because of the amount of radicalisation that goes on. Don't forget you live in the US, I live in the UK, two very different places. Here for example is an article (apologies for the length) from the Spectator from June last year . Posted it rather than just linked it incase there's regional restrictions to accessing it. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9230671/who-runs-our-mosques/ One of the comments
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