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Tribulation

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Everything posted by Tribulation

  1. Was about to give ESO another try. Looks very like what happened to Lotro. Lotro we had Turbine points, ESO we have crowns. Time will tell as to whether they wreck the game with their shop or just compliment it. Based on previous experiences, I have my doubts, but will hold my breath on the offchance
  2. And yet another example of the lack of integration into the UK, from "The Muslim Law Shariah Council UK" http://www.shariahcouncil.org/?page_id=28
  3. With regards to the above post I made 5 days ago, this video from a Muslim shows exactly what I mean
  4. I don't agree with a LOT of what Doro says, but I fully understand why he says and thinks it. It seems because he is prepared to say what he thinks and why, others feel the easiest argument is to label him some sort of hater. I'm a Christian, I don't think Doro could have been any more clear he hates the Christian religion as much as the Muslim one (and as a Christian, I fully understand why he and loads of others think like that, ) I'm, enjoying this debate, well I was, now it feels like it's been turned into a sort of personal attack, rather than answer any point, lets just say bigot etc. I would join in again, but I've tried to make it clear why there's so much distrust in the UK about Muslims, I've tried to show people what the UK Muslim women are saying, how little response they have had from Mosques etc, but that wasn't worthy of any reply, far easier to pick on Doro? I hadn't even started with my evidence, I haven't even started quoting/linking some of the UK Muslim forums that show how the men think of women etc. But what's the point, far far easier to pick on the one person in this thread who hasn't given up on speaking how they feel about religion as a whole, and trying to find labels for him instead.. which is an entirely different thing from hating Judism. On a separate note, just come across these videos and, if you don't want to listen to all 50 mins, listen from 26 mins to some of the q and a
  5. While I don't agree with everything Doro says, resorting to name calling kind of makes any point you are making, meaningless. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, usually opinions are formed over time for various reasons, many times those opinions and reasons are wrong, many times they are right, many times its how some thing looks to the average person, and we are never totally sure what's going on. But not being able to discuss with others without resorting to abuse, don't care who it is, pro Muslim, anti Muslim or whatever, to me when ANYONE starts down that route, they haven't got anything positive (regardless of view point) to add to the conversation. As I quoted earlier, the UK Muslim women themselves are concerned about their horiffing treatment by UK men. OK, sure many men will be loving husbands, but it's very very obvious there's a huge problem with how women are both seen and treated, and from what those women imply, they are facing hard times getting UK mosques to change. I struggle to accept a religion that appears its normal to treat women like that, can really be considered all that peaceful. I know Judaism also has problems with the treatment of women (although I don't THINK violence is one of them). I know Chistian churches are also male dominated, but women Preachers do exist, most churches women are encouraged to speak, pray out loud etc, even churches with all male leadership encourage women to get involved, have no problem with women speakers etc. Again, I'm only interested about 2015, not the babric stuff all 3 of these religions have done in the past. And if you go to that UK Muslim woman's Web site http://www.mwnuk.co.uk/Muslim_Women_RISING_against_VIOLENCE_Mosque_Postcard_Campaign__17_cd.php#B2 You will see that out of 100 mosques contacted in 2013, so far only 1 has responded. On a side note, the last line of post 380 is seen as being offensive to most Christians, but the poster still has the right to say it.
  6. I have to side with Doro on this, although I am trying to be fair as all 3 of the main religions have their highs and lows in my opinion. Based on the UK. based on the FACT that about 1/4 of mosques wont' even let women on the premises, based on the fact that those that do, they are kept separate from the men etc, the simple fact is, the impression the muslim faith gives to the average person ont he street is that they do treat women as second class citizens (as has Christianity in the past etc, but we are talking about today) There is article after article about the treatment of women in the Islam faith today. here's a few http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,185647,00.html Or in the UK http://www.mwnuk.co.uk/Muslim_Women_RISING_against_VIOLENCE_Mosque_Postcard_Campaign__17_cd.php To quote that site which is a site run BY Muslim women in the UK I've used the wrong term again Whether it's actually called an empire or not, the fact is, that in the past, Islam had invaded and taken over a far greater amount of countries etc than the British did at the height of their empire.
  7. Please don't get me wrong, for every word I could quote/write about say the Muslims treatment of Jews, I could quote/write far worse about the Christians treatment of them. Christians and Jews were still treated as second class citizens though. And if I understand correctly, throughout the Islamic empire, other faiths were ONLY tolerated once the countries had fallen to Islam In other words countries were invaded, took over and became a Muslim state and only then were Christians and Jews allowed to live there, providing of course they paid their special taxes they were charged as they wouldn't convert (and for example in Jerusalem, the wearing of special clothes to show whether they were Jew or Christian, having to walk on the left of Muslims, not allowed saddles on their horses, not allowed to speak at funerals etc etc etc The history of the area that I've read ( a lot) , whether the author is Muslim, Christian or Jewish, depends on how the arguments are obviously put forwards, hence read a Muslim article, they were the good ones, read a Christian article, they were the good ones etc. An interesting read for me was (all good, but page 18 onwards for around the time s we're talking about) http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/The%20Persian%20conquest%20of%20Jerusalem%20in%20614CE%20compared%20with%20Islamic%20conquest%20of%20638CE.pdf What that shows to me is that all sides were at one point or another as bad as each other. My mistake, I apologise, too many conversations going on and me typing on a tablet while tired.. What I initially quoted in another forum, that I got from from http://www1.american.edu/ted/hpages/jeruselum/muslim.htm and was referring to when I typed that was
  8. Which as I said earlier (I think, too many forums) could simplicity be seen as if the Muslims hadn't destroyed 2000 odd Christian churches in Jerusalem, the crusades would never have happened.
  9. The simple truth (n my opinion) is it boils down to something all religions suffer from. 1) The congregation not wanting to rock the boat, the congregations not wanting to upset their leaders, usually out of fear of being cast out etc. 2) The leaders using control techniques of various measures to make the congregation not dare publicly question things. Catholics worship the Pope more than they worship God (from what I can see), I know a fair few Irish people and they all say that the priests rule, the people are scared stiff of upsetting them. Christians (in the UK) suffer from a real power and control problem, Dare to question the leadership about anything and usually you get the line "are you with us or against us" and they then quote for example Hebrews 13:17 at you I have witnessed first hand, extreme cruelty in the Christian church to those at a time they need the church most. I have heard church member after church member complain behind their backs. These same members when I say "why don't you tell them" say words along the lines of "Because I don't want to be yet another person forced to leave for dare questioning them" I did question them, as a result, not only was my membership terminated, but also my wife's who had said nothing and is the most caring and loving individual you could ever meet. I was then referred to as Satan in the next meeting (I have a recording of it) and many people told me they were horrified, but no one had the guts to say so to the leadership (and many jokes were made to my wife by my friends at the church along the lines of "what's it like to be married to Satan". on a side note: ------------------------ Lots of letters went to and from me, my church and the churches head office (not correct term, but you know what I mean) , one of the things I stressed in EVERY letter was that my wife deserves an apology for being expelled just for being married to me, and I received loads of responses, not one addressed or even mentioned this. My son and daughter are both atheists now, their main reason, what they witnessed in the church while growing up, how much the church hurt their mum etc and to be honest, I'm not surprised they are, the whole thing sickens me and I doubt I'll ever go to a so called Christian church in the UK again ------------------------- and when church members complained to me about my treatment and I say "why don't you tell them", they say "look what happened to your wife, and she didn't even say anything " Yes I'm still very very angry 5 years later . Worse still is when people finally have enough and go to another Church, the other church don't want them to become members unless they have made peace with their previous church, so although most left that church hating it, those same people lie to the leaders of both churches, saying things like "I feel God wants me to move to this other Church," etc then the original church starts believing all is OK when it isn't. I could literally write 100 pages on my experiences at one single church near me alone.But sadly my experience isn't limited to that one church or that one denomination (New Frontiers) But my point is, this is a Christian church full of people that can leave when they want, choose to turn up to etc and they ALL chose to complain behind the leaders backs but do NOTHING. Most have non Christian friends as well as Christians ones, it's not a part of their whole community like I get the impression the Muslim faith is. If Christians give in this easily due to the clever ways their leaders twist words, how much more likely is it in a community of Muslims where the faith is most of their community and a big part of their culture, that it's going to be far worse to question their leaders? And when you have a religion where an entire gender has virtually no say, this is an even bigger problem as if every single Muslim woman in the UK wanted to speak out against their leadership, I expect every single one would be scared to do so. When you live in fear of your leaders, regardless of your beliefs, it never ends well.
  10. Actually Doro has a point. It might not be true (then again it could be) , but the impression they do give is that the majority (in the UK) do sympathise. We can only give our opinions based on what we see and hear for ourselves. Of course not all we read and see is correct, neither will all you see and hear be correct. If I or you visit a mosque or a series of mosques throughout the world, there's a big chance most are going to be against extremism, or at lease they are going to imply that to you and me,. That does not really mean that are against it, neither does it mean they are supporting it. I used to co-run the UK side of IT for a well known UK clothing company. The buyers would make many visits to their factories in the likes of India to check all was OK, no slave labour. Guess what, almost every single time everything was perfect as that is what the factories wanted to portray. Then we have the undercover news-night (or something similar) showing children in sweat shops making our clothes. I base my comments on what I see in the UK. I base it on how over the past 20 years Islam in the UK seem to have got more extreme (not talking about radicals and people fighting for Syria etc). Years ago they seemed to integrate much more (or possibly it was because they were left to themselves and no one paid them any attention), we didn't see them demanding the right to cover their faces 20+ years ago, this is a recent thing. There's been numerous so called honour killings where brothers. fathers etc have killed daughters because of their choice of a western lifestyle. Or even world wide Female castration is outlawed for obvious reasons, but is still often carried out in the UK, yet in 2013, it was estimated 20,000 girls living in the UK under 15 yrs of age were at risk (estimated by the government) and that 60,000 were living with the consequences. Then there's forced marriages where the government had to change the law to try and stop it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27830815 I wonder how many Muslims dead against extremism, would tell on their freinds if they new they were getting their daughter castrated, or sending her abroad to be married etc, When this is the main side of the Muslim faith the average person in the street gets to hear about, then we see extremists, well I'm, sorry, but no matter how wrong that impression might be, that is the impression they currently give.
  11. stupid formatting, re-written below
  12. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. However I want to make one thing very very very clear. From the outset I have tried to say that I couldn't care less what people choose to believe in or not to believe in. I have said what it's beginning to feel like in the UK, and trust me, I am far far far more tolerant than most people I see, if I have niggling worries, others will be talking about getting out their pitchforks. Unlike most, I have little problem with immigration, I am glad I belong to the EU. Racism is something I have never ever ever been able to comprehend. I simply cannot get my head around how someone can hate someone else just due to the colour of their skim, it simply doesn't add up to me. This is nothing to do with race, it's about a particular religious group acting in a way that goes against many things the UK stands for. It isn't just about extremists. But add the extremists on top and it's understandable why so many people are giving their views Years ago we had working mens clubs, clubs just for men, no women allowed, they had to change their rules as it was deemed illegal. Fair enough. Now we have mosques where women aren't allowed. And a blind eye is turned. It's the double standard that has many people in the UK on edge. Nearly everyone is scared stiff of offending a Muslim. A friend of my daughters worked for a recruitment agency in London last year, upon starting she was told, "we don't send out anyone called Mohammed" That sounds blatantly wrong. A few years ago I employed two muslims, We worked in a 24/7 computer room. I asked them just as I asked all people of any religion etc if they are prepared to work any shift even if it falls on a religious holiday. I stressed that if cover could be found, then shift swaps could be made. But if it couldn't, they would be expected to work. No problem they both said. One of them was the nicest guy you could meet, he stuck to his word, the other one took every single one of his religious holidays off sick. Now, if anyone else did that (every public holiday, Christmas etc) they would be given warnings and finally fired. I was not allowed to even warn this guy as the company was scared stiff of being taken to court. End result was that the other IT staff harboured resentment, one rule for them one rule for others, and I said, "fine, I'll never employ another Muslim then" and I never did. Now I know that wasn't the average Muslims fault, but its what our society has become. Only last week I heard people talking of this leading to a war. I believe we need to discuss this, it's a very very very real problem int he UK, there's a LOT of hatred towards Muslims,. I have no hatred to wards them, but that doesn't stop me being worried with what I see happening. One of the biggest causes of this in my opinion is for when people try to discuss it, they get called haters etc or have it implied they are anti Muslim etc. It needs to be discussed, the Imams need to get out of their Mosques, get on TV more and talk to non Muslims, because at the moment, there's one or two while the rest remain silent. The Government needs to make sure that laws applied to one section of society is also applied to all others. I get it, you have had great experiences with Muslims, Guess what, So have I. But the few Muslim friends I know are very very very reluctant to get drawn into any conversation about extremism, woman's rights etc. and in my opinion, they are not doing themselves any favours. When for example we have more British born Muslims fighting in Syria than in the armed forces, alarm bells do ring, and your personal experience is not going to change that, sorry.
  13. ROFL, reminds me of about 16 years ago, on a stag weekend in Amsterdam, turned out it was a Gay pride weekend and 7 out of 10 honestly had the stereotypical skimpy leather shorts, string vest and flat cap
  14. These quotes from someone else says what I think.(have to be registered to read) http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5147767&page=45
  15. I could easily say "And you presume they do something because ?" Because of the evidence. because of the amount of radicalisation that goes on. Don't forget you live in the US, I live in the UK, two very different places. Here for example is an article (apologies for the length) from the Spectator from June last year . Posted it rather than just linked it incase there's regional restrictions to accessing it. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9230671/who-runs-our-mosques/ One of the comments
  16. And Doro is totally correct. Or to put it another way, that's the impression the UK Muslim community gives to the average person on the street.
  17. I agree 100% I'm having a few different similar conversations in different forums and am loosing track of what I said where I know what a bad history Christianity has, I also know what a bad history Islam has. I have seen a lot of threads over the past few days implying Muslims are the peaceful ones throughout history and Christians arnt. In my opinion neither has a good track record. I know the history much better than I'm making out. Here's a thread I posted on another forum, note my last line While true, again my concerns is that if they are aware, which they must be in my opinion, doing nothing is just as bad. If I know a friend has been brainwashed and is likely to blow up a school and I turn a blind eye, even if I believe they are 100% wrong in their ideals, I had the power to try and stop them, inform the authorities etc, and in my opinion, if I chose to do nothing and my friend kills innocent people, that in my way of thinking makes me virtually as bad as him. I don't know how recently you visited these places, but often such places change very fast. To quote from in my opinion the worst UK newspaper, it has an article from our first Muslim MP. And that is the big problem, they do call themselves Muslims. Sure many get radicalised at university or wherever, but their peaceful Muslim friends don't see what's happening to them? I don't dispute your experience of Muslims, but all it takes is for a few good men to do nothing ..... The fear then leads to people posting posts like the following I just found on a UK Forum
  18. Christianity in the US appears to most Christians I know in England as very warped, very judgemental, to go against what a lot of the Bible teaches and to want to dictate to society what's what. While it's obviously unfair to tar all churches like that, I'm sure you know what I mean. TV evangelism is the worst and my pet hate is the God TV channels and while I believe it's now based in Israel, most of the shows seem to come from the US. I watched many programs on it and the more I watched, the sadder I got. Preachers in expensive designer suits begging for people to send them money. So called healers filling stadiums etc, surely if they were that blessed at healing, instead of putting on a completely over the top show, they should be walking round hospitals healing the sick. They make a mockery of my faith. Show me just one single case in the western world where a limb has grown back (before and after xrays please) or a completely blind person could see after the laying on of hands because I've yet to see it. I hear stories on how someone's leg grew by a few mm, thanks God, forget about the guy who lost his leg in a horrific accident, instead grow someone's leg by a couple of mm that's completely unverifiable. My personal belief is that if someone fired a bullet into my head at point blank range, IF God wanted He could see to it that I came to no harm. I also know I would die, what makes me more special than the many Christians before me who have for example been horrifically killed because of their faith. I have health problems, when I used to go to church it really annoyed and depressed me when at the end of most services, they would do one of their healing things. Week after week, year after year the same poor sods going forwards to have hands laid on them, people with physical deformaties etc given false hope. Then you have the wham bam brigade that seems to think people are only true Christian if they let the leaders push them to the floor. I'm open to correction but I don't recall reading about that in the bible. I look at these US so called movements of God, Pensicola etc, I watch these meetings, I look at the congregation, it mainly consists of other church leaders from around the globe who think that if they can do the same back home, well I'm not entirely sure what they think to be honest. I do know these leaders make out non Christians are getting converted just driving past, yet a group from my old church who went over said most people in nearby bars, restaurants etc had never heard of it, Then there's the sermons I listen to, I see Joyce Mayer sitting in a throne sprayed golden, and at the end I can buy her sermon not for cost, not for a couple of dollars more, but for $39.99 plus p and p. Then there's the leader in one of these Pensicola type meetings saying to the congregation words along the lines of "you come here, say you have given your life to the Lord, then you go home and open a six pack". I'm sitting there with my beer in my hand, bottle of single malt whiskey on the table to follow it with, and I shake my head in disgust. For those who are interested, Jesus's first recorded miracle was at a wedding AFTER the guests had consumed all the wine, he then turned water into the best quality wine. Somehow I suspect there were a few very tipsy people there. And then there's my first hand experience, on a holiday to Florida, we found a church to attend. It had a little road train thing bringing us from our cars to the Church. The Church had esculators taking us to a huge auditorium, a huge 'stage', I wasn't impressed. At the end we were filtered out through their shop (which was bigger than my UK Church building), I felt like I had been to an amusement park ride and ended up in the gift shop. The cash registers ringing away as thousands of dollars changed hands that Sunday, I just thought of Jesus when he kicked the people buying and selling in the temple. I then went to Walmart as I had paid to take my kids to Disney World's Halloween party as it was my son's birthday. While in Walmart, in the haloween Isle, I was acosted by two men trying to convince me to go to church instead, why some Christians see pointy hatted witches with broomsticks as anything like the witchcraft mentioned in the bible is beyond me. Usually such Christians have zero problems with thinge like the lion the witch and the wardrobe as it was written by a Christian. The sort that say gambling is a sin, the lottery is a sin, but are quiet happy to own shares in various companies. My local church tried to get a petition to have a new lap dancing club banned. I refused to sign it, it's not my job to say what amy one else chooses to do. I also asked them the following. If the chuches around here get 4000 signitures to get the lap dancing club closed, and at the same time the lap dancing club got 8000 signitures wanting the churches closed, would you take any notice. I was told I was being silly. So I get it 100% why non Christians are so against the church, I don't think it's right to ever shove God down people's throats, the bible doesn't tell us to keep badgering non Christians to believe. There is a lot of power, control, greed, hypocrisy etc in the modern church. I loath door knocking whethere religious or salesmen. To try and show how against it I am, my friends were bemused how I managed to get to the following position with the Jehova Witnesses. My door knocks, I answer it, there's a very frightened looking couple and the man says "I'm very very sorry, We're Jehova Witnesses, I knocked on your door before looking at my file and I've just read we're not to knock on your door under any circumstances" I have an amazing faith in God, I know there's things I can't explain, if I had all the answers it wouldn't really be faith anymore, I fully get why others don't believe, I get why others hate organised religion. I personally believe the way the so called Christian church (all Christian denominations) have acted over the years, they are totally to blame for others switching off when God and the Church are mentoned. Many of the discussions I have had with atheists etc, the person I'm discussing with was either brought up in the church or joined a Church at one point in their lives only to be taken advantage of or judged etc. The difference in the UK is that the CofE church is seen as a joke. There are a few good ones where vicars really believe (the full ones on a Sunday), but most are run by weirdos who have studied theology and I don't think most even really believe in God themselves, tradition, wearing stupid looking dresses etc being the most important thing for them. They also seem to be about 10 years behind what secular society wants, changing their rules constantly. You then have the various other denominations, Catholics who seem more afraid of their Priests than actually having a love of God, and all the other happy clappy, Methodists, baptist etc crowd who can't agree on anything, all thinking they are better than the other churches, all wanting to do their own thing, zero unity, at each others throats etc. All openly mocked and ridiculed constantly in various forms of media and the Internet. And then you have the Muslims, they do have unity, they do speak as one voice, they don't change the rules as secular society changes theirs. They stick to what they believe in and the media and most forums etc are scared shitless of upsetting them, a big example of this is that the Christian church has been torn to pieces over its views expressed on things like homosexuality, yet virtually zero is ever mentioned in the press about the Muslim view. And every time something like in Paris happens, the press get more scared, companies get more scared, TV companies don't want to risk offending and slowly but surely, the terrorist is winning.
  19. Very well said. I think the adding of verses was a big mistake (think it was done sometime in the 15th century), often chapters were meant to be read in their entirety to make sense. I read the bible and I think it gives a simple message. Time and time again we are told not to judge others, time and time again we are told things like before trying to take the spec out of a brothers eye, take the log out of ours. We are given example after example like the good Samaritan where in a modern day apt setting it would be the good Muslim and a load of Christians ignore a Christian who is in need, and a Muslim is the only one to go to his aid etc. Jesus criticises the religious leaders 2000 odd years ago and personally I think he would have far worse to say about the modern Christian church leaders, especially the US TV crowd. They wanted to stone a woman accused of adultery (note the absence of the man involved), Jesus stopped them. Sure there's a lot, especially in the Old Testament that we in our modern cultures simply cant comprehend, many many parts seem simply barbaric. But all through the Bible, the people who are used are the ones that go against the flow so to speak. Moses was a murderer. The prostitute and her family was the only one God saved. etc Trouble is, people will look at what I say and say that is simply my interpretation and what makes me so sure my interpretation is correct and others are wrong, so any discussion goes round in circles. Personally I think people need to stop trying to dissect every verse, every sentence etc and stop trying to read into them things that aren't there.
  20. There are always good people in all walks of life. A Church near me has a wonderful caring pastor, is not a power obsessed control freak etc, but they are few and far between. To me, your experience only confirms my concerns I listed in my previous post about the Muslim leaders involvement in their members lives. I simply do not believe so many people belonging to so many different mosques become radicalised without their Imams being aware. The history isn't great either for how they treated Jews and Christians. Pact of Umar, circa 720: Jews and Christians as second class citizens in Muslim countries. Give up a seat to a Muslim, rise when a Muslim enters * conversion to Christianity or Judaism illegal * no raising of voices at funerals * no riding on horses and no saddles Further restrictions came over time: ridiculous clothing * walking on the left of any Muslim * out of the way synagogues * required to pay a fine to remain Jewish or Christian. 807 – All Jews in the Caliphate of Abbassid to wear a yellow belt, Christians a blue one. 1016 – Tunisia – Jews are forced to convert or leave. 1066 – Granada – a Muslim mob storm the palace and crucify the Jewish vizier and massacre most of the Jewish population. 4,000 die. 1090 – Granada – Jews again attacked. 1107 – Moroccan Jews ordered to convert or leave. 1146 – Jews in Morocco again ordered to convert to Islam or die, thousands fled, the majority were executed. 1148 – 1212 – Granada – Jews forced to convert to Christianity or Islam. 1165 – forced conversions in Yemen. 1190 - Saladdin takes over Jerusalem from Crusades and lifts the ban for Jews to live there. 1232 - Forced mass conversions in Marrakesh. 1333 - forced mass conversions in Baghdad 1435 - Massacre and forced conversion of Marjorcan Jews. 1438 - Establishment of mellahs (ghettos) in Morocco. 1619 - Shah Abbasi of the Persian Sufi Dynasty increases persecution against the Jews, forcing many to outwardly practice Islam. Many keep practicing Judaism in secret. 1790-1792 - Destruction of most of the Jewish communities of Morocco. 1805 - Massacre of Jews in Algeria. 1840 - The Damascus affair: false accusations cause arrests and atrocities, culminating in the seizure of sixty-three Jewish children and attacks on Jewish communities throughout the Middle East. 1921 May 1-4 – Jaffa riots in Palestine. 1929 August 23 - The ancient Jewish community of Hebron is destroyed in the Hebron massacre. 1934 - 2,000 of Afghani Jews expelled from their towns and forced to live in the wilderness. 1941 - The Farhud pogrom in Baghdad results in 200 Jews dead, 2,000 wounded. WWII – Muslims served in the Waffen-SS in the Handschar units in the Middle East and the Balkans hunting down partisans and Jews for the Nazis. Their German officers wore fez hats with the swastika. The uniform insignia included the swastika and a scimitar 1948-2001 - Antisemitism played a major role in the Jewish exodus from Arab lands. The Jewish population in the Arab Middle East and North Africa has decreased from 900,000 in 1948 to less than 8,000 in 2001. 1948 - During the Siege of Jerusalem of the Arab-Israeli War, Arab armies were able to conquer the part of the West Bank and Jerusalem; they expelled all Jews (about 2,000) from the Old City (the Jewish Quarter) and destroyed the ancient synagogues that were in Old City as well. 1968 - The ancient Jewish community of Hebron, which had been destroyed in the 1929 Hebron massacre, is revived at Kiryat Arba. The community, in 1979 and afterwards, moves into Hebron proper and rebuilds the demolished Abraham Avinu Synagogue, the site of which had been used by Jordan as a cattle-pen.
  21. There is another angle with this that slightly irritates me, speaking from the UK point of view. It seems Christians are fair game for public ridicule, piss taking, openly mocking on TV, forums or whatever and any who are offended, it's simply tough luck. While I have no problem with that (I believe God is big enough to look after himself, he doesn't need me to do it for him), I do hate the double standards. It doesn't bother me personally if people blaspheme but many of my Christian friends are offended when people say "Jesus Christ" every other sentence as some sort of swear word and there's nothing they can do, if they do complain they are laughed at. But if Mohammed was used in the same context there would be outrage and the TV companies etc wouldn't dare let it continue. That leads to the Musliim faith being given a different status to the Christian one if you see what I mean. I have only ever complained once in my life about something offending Christians and that was Jerry Stringers Opera that was broadcast by the BBC that I help pay for with my TV licensee. Unlike many others that complained, I did watch it all. My complaint wasn't that it was shown, wasn't that they thought it fun to mock the Christian faith, my complaint was that the BBC wouldn't have dared show it if it had been about Mohamed instead of Jesus. It had nearly 50,000 complaints from Christians before it was broadcast but none of their complaints counted. I am against all forms of censorship, as I said my complaint was about the double standards, not the broadcast it's self. Other things get complaints by 5 people,. 20 people, 100 people and they are taken seriously because someone might get offended whether due to the piss being taken out of a disability, death, race or something, but when it cones to Christians, who cares. I've had posts removed from forums because someone decided to hit the report button as rather than try and read what I was actually saying, they homed in on one sentence and took offence (usually on behalf of someone else|) completely missing the point I was trying to say. I don't mind my beliefs being ridiculed, I don't mind people thinking or saying whatever they like about them, but I do mind one rule for one section of society and another for everyone else. The Islamic fundamentalists are winning this one., Like Intelligence says, it would be a silly thing for someone to do. The papers are already very very careful what they print, if it was Jesus being complained about, all the papers would happily have a front page cartoon mocking him, but they wouldn't dare when it comes to Mohamed. What sadly will happen is that the likes of UKIP will gain popularity, people will label all Muslims as terrorists and as silly as this seems now, it could end up in some sort of civil war. All it would take is a few more mass killings and more and more people will get their vigilante hat on and say enough is enough, and sadly such people very rarely think sensibly.
  22. While I agree with some of your post I don't agree with that bit at least not in the UK. One of my biggest criticisms of UK Christian church leaders is how little they know about the Muslim faith compared to how much the Muslim faith knows about the Christian one. I saw a documentary on TV a couple of years ago, somewhere in England, a vicar and a Imam debating their beliefs in a mosque. Not only could the imam quote book, chapter and verse of the bible (as could many of the Muslim congregation) but he could quote the bible better than the vicar could. OK it was staged, I know people that could have torn that imam to pieces, they obviously were very careful in who they picked to represent the Christian faith but the point still stands. One of my biggest complaints about the modern Christian in the UK (all denominations) is how little they teach the bible. I used to spend a lot of my time having great debates with atheists, agnostics etc and most if not all of them new the bible far far far better than virtually all Christians I know. In the UK, Christians have got no one to blame for the lack of respect for their faith but themselves (and more to the point, their leaders who they put up with)
  23. All of the below cut and pasted from various internet sites. According to the Encyclopedia of Wars (Phillips and Axelrod), of the 1,763 major conflicts in recorded history, only 123 of them can be classified as having been fought over religious differences. That’s less than 7 percent. The encyclopedia also explains that the number of people killed in these conflicts amounts to only two percent. This means that even when wars have been fought over religious disputes, they tend to be less bloody than when they are fought for other reasons. By all accounts, the 20th century was one of the bloodiest centuries in human history. Two major world wars, which had nothing at all to do with religion, the Jewish Holocaust, and the Communist Revolutions in Russia, China, Southeast Asia and Cuba, have accounted for anywhere between 50-70 million deaths (some estimate upwards to 100 million). The one thing these conflicts and genocides have in common is that fact that they were ideological, not religious, in nature. We could easily make the case that more people have died throughout human history due to ideology than to religion. Communist ideology necessitates ruling over others. Nazi ideology necessitates elimination of “inferior” races. These two ideologies alone account for the death of millions, and religion had nothing to do with it. In fact, communism is by definition an atheistic ideology. Dawkins has said that if religion were somehow abolished, there would be "a much better chance of no more war". There would also be "less hatred, because a lot of the hatred in the world is sectarian hatred," according to Dawkins. "For example, in Northern Ireland, India and Pakistan,” he told the website belief.net. But academic studies consistently challenge the link between religion and war. Research published in October from the New York and Sydney-based Institute for Economics and Peace looked at all of the wars that took place in 2013. It found no 'general causal relationship' between religion and conflict. In fact, religious elements played no role at all in 14 (40%) of the 35 armed conflicts in the research, and only five (14%) had religious elements as their main cause, the report showed. All of the wars had multiple causes, and the much more common motivation was opposition to a government, or to the economic, ideological, political or social systems of a state, which was named as a main factor in nearly two thirds of the cases studied. etc etc etc My personal take is man causes war and often power crazed men uses religion as an excuse to get people to fight their wars and if religion wasn't here, man would find another excuse.
  24. A post I made elsewhere in a thread discussing alienating the vast majority of peaceful Muslims (long) ---------------------------- I'm in two minds over this. I couldn't care less what someone believes, what someone sexuality is or what someone chooses to do in their spare time, but I know a few Christian, vast majority are normal people, a few are smiley faced happy clappy weirdos (I have many normal Christian friends that attend happy clappy churches too). A few more are complete loony fanatics, if say Israel is mentioned in a negative way on the TV, they scream at the TV etc. I've belonged to a few churches in my time, while I believe in God, I now HATE the modern established church, all denominations. Sure there's the odd one that has a good vicar/pastor etc for as few years, but for every one of those, there appears to be 100 that are run by power obsessed control freaks. I have seen people in greatest need simply cast aside by these so called caring churches and I'm including all denominations, Catholic, CofE, AOG, NFI, Baptist,Methodist etc etc etc. Almost without exception, every church I've been to has at least one Christian fundamentalist, sure their degree of fundamentalism isn't always as bad as another persons might be, but all churches seem to have them and all churches appear to tolerate them. Worse is that a lot of churches only encourage them without realising. For example one church where they were saying we can all be leaders, we can all prophesise, we can all speak out in a meeting to tell everyone what God is telling us. And of course the inevitable happens, those with the most warped views, spout their warped views and claim God is telling them that, or God told them that this is going to happen, or that is going to happen, when a 3 yr old could tell it wasn't God telling them that. But most church leaders do thankfully realise the error of their fundamentalist members ways, and do things like aim a sermon at them, sadly that results in the fundamentalist agreeing with every word the sermon said, but not having a clue it's aimed at them. Thankfully while in the past, control freaks used religion to their own dirty ends, in the modern western Christian churches, while I witness no end of abuse, selfishness, power and control from various denominations, they still on the whole (there will always be the odd exception like that gay bashing church in the US) want to live peaceful lives and have no want of any form of violence, and while leaders rarely practice what they preach, forgiveness, love and understanding is still one of the main themes taught. However, most Christians would like nothing better than for the whole country to have their Christian morals, to have things banned that they don't like etc. Thankfully there's little chance of them doing it as I personally think a Christian has zero rights to tell what is acceptable to a non Christian, and when some do try, on the whole it's by peaceful means. Even though I have a lot of hatred towards the Christian church, even at the worst churches I've been to, if someone was acting in a way that was likely to be a danger to members of the public, I know those leaders wouldn't hesitate to go to the police etc. And with the greatest of respect to these people, most of the very fanatical Christians I've met, are not what you would consider normal mental stable every day people that you could for example have a normal conversation with, they all seem to have some sort of social interaction problem or another (well the ones I've met fall into that category) I admit I know very little about the Muslim faith, what I do know only comes from what I've read online etc and of course that isn't always correct. But some of the things I've read about those choosing to support the likes of Isis is quite scary, They don't fall into exactly the same type of person as those Christian fundamentalists I've met. They seem much more stable, often being educated to a very high level and/or having great career prospects. An article I read on this is here (to save e copying loads of it) http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/22/world/meast/inside-isis-juergen-todenhoefer/index.html I hope people don't read into what I'm about to say, something I am not saying, I am happy to be tolerant of all groups, I gave my impression of my Christian faith first to show that there's bad apples in any bunch. Multi faith society doesn't really work, never has and never will. One can (hopefully) be tolerant of the other but it is virtually impossible for someone with a belief in a God, to accept another persons belief in a different form of God. Well they can be tolerant but they are never going to agree that the other persons faith is correct. I don't believe for one second that the Muslim faith is the right one, I also don't believe the Atheist or agnostics have it right. But personally I believe it's everyone's choice to make their own decision and if that what they choose to believe (or not believe in) so be it. At the same time, no true Muslim believes that my Christian faith has it right. When I see some bishops or whatever holding a multifaith service, I cringe, it's simply blasphemous to most faiths attending, it achieves nothing, it isn't going to make a Christian think the Muslim faith is correct and it isn't going to make a Muslim think the Christian faith is correct. You cant have a service where two groups of people believe in two completely different things and expect them to be able to worship together, it simply is never going to work. As I said earlier, nothing would please most of the Christians I know than for Christian values to be throughout the whole of the UK. Its also a pretty good guess that most Muslims would love the whole country to be Muslim with Muslim values etc. How far those values go I can't comment on as I don't know enough about their faith, I have heard there are two big groups of Muslims with differing opinions. One group wanting women to remain home etc, how that fairs with Muslims in this country I don't know. At the hight of the IRA bombings, I knew a lot of Irish people and my sister in law dated a fair few. While most would say bombing was wrong, I never found one that would openly condemn the IRA as they all believed the IRA was right in what they wanted (many wouldn't really condemn the bombings either) I wonder/worry whether we are facing a similar thing with the Muslim community, a few leaders openly condemn the violence but part of me worries whether they are doing that just as a PR measure to stop any backlash rather than really meaning it. Even if they mean it in one sense, I wonder whether part of them secretly supports the cause even if they don't support the violence that accompanies it?. Most of us has heard of the gay bashing church in the US, cant remember it's name off hand, the one where they were placarding in the streets etc. Yes that church is bang out of order, yes sadly there's a few others like it, but they are in the minority. It wouldn't surprise anyone how someone attending one of their churches turned out. As I already said, most church members and all leaders were aware of those with fundamentalist issues in any church I attended. If a few disillusioned youth with bad education, not many prospects etc that attended a handful of Mosques, ended up radicalised then I could understand that, there is obviously a problem at those few mosques. What worries me is that it seems that well educated people with very good career prospects who belong to a VAST amount of different mosques, all appear to be radicalised without their leaders and friends realising it, and I find that very hard to believe. While I'm, basing my experiences on the Christian churches, I would be very surprised if the Muslim leaders aren't just as clued up on what their congregations get up to (I wouldn't be surprised if they were far more clued up). So either the Muslim leaders haven't got a clue on what their mosque members are up to, have zero influence on their personal lives, have no inkling on what their attendees are doing, or else something doesn't add up. I worry that many secretly support what these radicals are doing, really believing in a Muslim state at their end game for the UK, they just cant admit it. I could be completely wrong of course and I'm not meaning to cause offence by what I've said, I'm just thinking logically through the situation and something simply doesn't add up in my mind. One thing I do know is when you are dealing with the likes if Isis, diplomacy is pointless, too often things happen in parts of the world and the UN wants to give peace a chance and talk for months, try to negotiate etc etc etc. Sadly some people are beyond negotiation and if the UN got their act together and got troops to these places as soon as the likes of Isis sprout up, we might not be in the mess we've found ourselves in in the past few days. Sure I hate war and violence,but all too often our reluctance to go to war causes hundreds of thousands of needless deaths and long term problems for years.
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