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nosam9
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Really you can? AWESOME! Then I can call you for what you are! A person whose head is so far stuck up his ass that he has to interpret other peoples words and deeds to conform to his own self-deluded flatulent sense of self importance.

You just won the internet. Congratulations. We can all go home now.

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This is why third-party forums are the best way to discuss LOTRO amongst the community now. The official Forums are now Fluffville, and substantive, potentially critical discussions should be held elsewhere.

Oh, I completely agree. I may continue to take a pot shot here and there where I can, but I probably won't post there in a critical way until I decide to leave for good. At that point, it won't matter and I will do everything I can possibly do to show the entire community the truth of the situation. Go out with a bang, so to speak.

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Yes, once again, open to interpretation. When a something positive is said about Turbine the Mods continually give the benefit of the doubt to the poster. However, when dissatisfaction is shown, that same comment will be taken in a way that "violates the CoC." It's a double standard. It's a convenient way for the mods to take almost any criticism and paint it in a way that violates their CoC. It makes it so that dissent isn't allowed, it is brushed away. It is disrespectful and wrong for a company to treat their paying customers that way.

I help pay their paychecks, rather than be grateful and listen to my criticism openly, they are basically disregarding it, AND THEN they are taking it a step further by denying me my ability to express my views to others. It's just wrong, and anyone who tries to defend that type of behavior from a team that is supposed to be about the customer is also wrong. It's Customer Service 101. The customer is always right. Period.

Look, I am not as well informed as others as to Turbine's recent behaviour. My forum activity began in 2003 and ended in 2006 where I got burnt out alpha and beta testing the game to the point I did not want to play it.

What I want to emphasize is that if they are doing what you say they are doing, then the game IS rigged against you, as you and others have stated. But you can still win by playing their game against them. They are no longer Turbine, they are a Time-Warner subsidiary. Customer Service 101 in big business is a myth and the sooner folks realize that the better they can implement strategies that help further their objectives as consumers.

Do NOT employ language open to interpretation, especially when that interpretation can be used against you.

Do NOT personalize the issue. The moment someone feels you have insulted them, you have lost the battle with a lot of people. If they convince others they were insulted, you have lost the battle entirely.

Do NOT criticize without offering a possible solution.

I could go on, but hey, I am obviously a troll right? ;)

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BTW Ceredig, If they can't find grounds to give infractions/ban you, Turbine sends you to Coventry and when others asked what happened to Zweillebaud (Hajille on this board) his posts went missing do to a forum glitch and they were trying to fix it.

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This is not about trying to take sides, it is about trying to get you 'dissenters' to realize you are not doing yourselves any favours in how you are posting on their boards. If you want to communicate your position effectively you need to step outside yourself and review your criticisms with a critical eye.

I can tell you two things hands down.

1.) You are right.

2.) It doesn't really matter anymore.

Why #2?

Because people have about had it. They are through walking on eggshells. The vast majority of the folks I've spoken to, and it's a LOT of people, simply refuse to buy ROI or TP or anything else from Turbine until and if the situation improves.

Turbine can't even address the concerns of the community about their compromised data issue without giving a bunch of mirrors and smokescreens and obfuscating BS.

And any time a straight answer is ever requested, on just about anything, the usual answer to when something is going to be addressed is 'Soon '

Well you know what?

When is Turbine and WB going to have a vast majority of their products boycotted by a whole bunch of people?

'Soon ' ;)

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Well you know what?

When is Turbine and WB going to have a vast majority of their products boycotted by a whole bunch of people?

'Soon ' ;)

Let us assume that this will happen. Then the question remains whether you want it to happen in order for them to come to their senses and offer a better product OR you just want them to lose money because they pissed you off.

If the latter, hey nothing wrong with that, but never admit that is the case since the boycott will not be as big as it could have been. If however you hope that it will bring change, then you need to remain engaged rather than giving up.

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I'd never want a company to lose money because they 'pissed me off'. That's incredibly juvenile and petty.

I suggest a boycott, because it's the only thing that will get through to the mega-corp parent company.

They could give half a rotten crap less if you sent twenty thousand letters in asking for recourse from grievances.

But once it's attached to them losing money from said grievances... they will be forced to listen.

Every single executive has a boss, even the top cheese has to answer to the board.

And they will want to know two main things...

1.) Why was revenue lost.

2.) Why didn't you prevent it before it got out of hand?

Followed by (insert Donald trump voice here...) 'You're Fired'

They could still fix this.

But it would involve an actual apology to the player community, and a change of their ban-o-matic policies.

See, the real problem here is not the people that are getting irritated, it's the ones doing the irritating in the first thing.

The LAST thing you do to an irritated customer, is to piss them off MORE.

And any company that can't figure that out, doesn't seem to care if people take their business elsewhere.

So why not help that along a bit, since they obviously don't care if they lose us as customers.

But they haven't considered the larger picture.

Their parent company owns a LOT of IP.

And when people stop buying ALL of their parent companies products over the holidays, such a thing is bound to get noticed by the bean counters.

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You have lost all credibility with me by making this argument.

That's nice

Saying someone has lied is completely different than saying they are a liar. They are just two different things. Think of it this way: the poster did NOT say "the moderators are liars".

This is why your logic is wrong: I baked a cake. Am I a baker? The dictionary says a baker is someone who bakes ...

Sorry I am not a baker.

Wrong, when you baked that cake, you are baker. You are just not a habitual (i.e professional) baker.

Secondly, you seem to be using this phrase wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

An ad hominem is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it.

Saying that there are fanboys on the forums is not at all trying to negate the truth of a claim. There is no claim that the OP was refuting. He was just pointing out that people act like fanboys. If person A said something, and then person B says "you are a liar anyway so can't be trusted", then that would be an ad hominem. I think using English is better anyway - less confusion.

I suggest paying more attention to what I actually write. Fanboy is a polysemous. It has a pejorative meaning which is often employed in ad hominem attacks by attempting to discredit a view by saying that the person will always be supportive irrespective of the 'reality' of the situation. I never stated that Ivaed meant the term that way. But to think no one would interpret it as an insult is facile. Thus using the term allowed for interpretation or misinterpretation leaving him open to censure. Furthermore, there is evidence in the post itself that might possibly lead people to read a pejorative sense into it. After all part of the post was an attempt to get people to come to this forum. Some might think the use of the term fanboy was an attempt to paint the Official forums in a negative light: place of rah rah mindless accolades and draconian mods compared to this forum, which though not perfect, offered a superior forum for debate. So sorry, there is the possibility of interpreting that Ivaed was using fanboy to

discredit claims that the official forums have no problems (statements made by those fanboys on more than one occasion)in order to garner support for this forum becoming the site for debate.

I agree, you are acting like a troll, by constantly arguing. Note I am not saying "you are a troll", just that you are acting like one. d;)b

I am responding to posts addressed to me. If order to not act like a troll I must ignore them, then I can only say I will not comply with your attempt to stifle debate. Wait a sec, which board am I on?

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Stumbled on this forum a few days ago. Haven't played since Junkwood, and certainly ain't paying for Rise of Storegard from what I've read.

Maybe I'm a morbid old SOB, but I can't help but be amused at Turbine's spiral into poopdom these last, oh, 3 years I'd say. Used to be a pretty friendly, fun place. Wasn't the sandboxy game I keep wishing for, but it was a decent virtual home until the dev schedule slowed to a crawl and gameplay went overboard on the leetgear and tokengrind stuff. It's really hit the fan there now, and fine with me. These dang MMO companies need to be smacked around; I'm tired of being nickled and dimed and having buggy, grindy dullfests fed to me in place of exploration and community.

Even though I'm not active, it's good to see a forum where people can talk openly about the issues without being locked or poofed.

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...compared to this forum, which though not perfect, offered a superior forum for debate. S

Considering that no one here has jumped your junk for the first sentence of your post here:

Really you can? AWESOME! Then I can call you for what you are! A person whose head is so far stuck up his ass that he has to interpret other peoples words and deeds to conform to his own self-deluded flatulent sense of self importance.

I'd say, yes, this is a much superior forum for debate.

On the other forum, you'd both be 'infracted' already.

Here, folks will let most of that slide, as long as it doesn't turn into a vulgar-fest.

And if all it takes for you to unload on someone is for them to say you are a troll or trolling... you might want to work on that hair trigger.

If you know you aren't trolling, then such things should pass over like so much water over a duck's back.

Anyway, don't let such things affect the discussion. I think, that all things considered, most people here have been quite respectful.

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I suggest a boycott, because it's the only thing that will get through to the mega-corp parent company.

I agree but only if the loss of revenue can be attributed to the boycott. To ensure the former, you need garner support. In order to garner support you need to convince folks of your views and have them join you in support of a boycott. You are not going to get support if people think your concerns are trivial or derive from a false sense of entitlement or any other potential negative attribution which they or Turbine may ascribe to them, and you will not get support if you do not try to convince people of your views in a professional and honest manner.

This means you need to ensure that any blog is factually accurate, avoids personal jabs at specific people, provides positive statements about the company which unfortunately do compensate for their present deficiencies.

Show me a diatribe rife with rhetoric and polemic and inaccuracies, and I will say that the piece in question is merely preaching to the converted. The one blog I have seen (that posted in the forums) which reviewed ROI suffered from some of these failings.

It is unfortunate but a forum such as this is a valid starting point for dissent, but in the end it can often harm the cause as well. I will leave it the open minded to understand what I mean. So find someone who can write well, is intellectually honest, open to criticism and have them start a blog. Have it critiqued by someone from the other side of the argument and do not dismiss what they have to say, because if you do, chances are you have lost a GREAT deal of potential support from the middle ground.

Keep posting on the forums but before doing so, have a mod review the post. This can work to your advantage in more than one way.

Ok time to sleep. FYI those convinced I am a troll, please realize nothing I can say will absolve your delusions, so rather than responding and feeding your various personality disorders, I will merely ignore them. ;)

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But have you exhausted every effort to see if you can get your account unbanned? Seriously there are ways to twist a company's arm. If you were wronged I can think of one strategy which would get some wheels moving, but that would assume you believe I am here with honest motives as opposed to ulterior ones which some posts replying to me have hinted.

Short of formal legal action (or exploring illegal avenues) I've done everything I can do.

I've proven they had no legitimate basis for what they did and it still doesn't matter to them.

If I wasn't specifically targeted by someone(s) over there, they would have most definitely admitted the mistake by now. It's been going on for almost 2 months and I've given them every opportunity to look at the facts. They giveth and taketh away at their whim because their "community" holds the only power they have in life.

I'm not looking for any attention whatsoever, I simply want the truth to be out there.

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Boycotts and protests can work but only if a large enough number of players take part and the online gaming media take notice.

For something like this to work in lotro you would need a number of well known and well respected kins on each server to rally the the troops so to speak,

The players most likely to have the greatest influence in numbers would be those PvMP. This is the tightest part of the lotro community.

If you had each PvMP kin on each server united together as well as other players you would probably have a large enough group to make outside communities take notice.

Along with the protest you would need somebody who is able to put together a well written mail including many examples of Turbine lying, inappropriate ban's etc etc to send to the online gaming sites.

However when all is said and done, I do not believe that the Lotro community has anywhere near what it takes to successfully pull this type of protest.

There is far too much apathy and far too many players willing to give Turbine "another few months or until the next update".

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Stating the truth has never been this dangerous. Even if you had been courteous as anything, just saying - even suggestively - that Turbine might not be telling the truth, the thread would get you infrictions. In fact the only thread you can apparently say anything you want is the Official Thread: Community Site Issues Discussion. And let's be honest, OP worded the post in a way that it was most likely to be locked. But deleted, after saying no threads will be deleted? Well.. I'm not surprised. They lie! That has been proven so many times already.

A common mood about Lotro for many people these days seems to be "not surprised but sad" and for a good reason.

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Sorry man but on this forum I can call you a for what you are, a troll :)

Would you like to stick the same the label on me, Dar? Because Ceredig is RIGHT. It doesn't matter how well Ivaed's post was written (which it was); it doesn't matter what Ivaed thinks Ivaed means when Ivaed uses certain words. Other people will have different views of those words. It matters that Ivaed gave the moderators more than adequate excuse to treat the post as outside the CoC, and they didn't even have to exert themselves to do it.

Nice try, Ivaed, very nice try, but nevertheless not good enough. Till you are blue in the face, you can protest that what you mean by fanboy is... You can even put your definition in the post every time you use the word, and still people can & will perceive it as pejorative. If you can't see how that works, try substituting the word "nigger" for fanboy. You handed the mods a reason to remove it on a plate.

You are your demonstrated behaviour - what you mean, what you say, what you write, is not nearly so important as what other people think you meant, think you said, think they read. It's a very uncomfortable fact of life that an awful lot of people struggle to wrap their heads around. Since, in this case, the people doing the thinking are the ones with the power, it would behoove many of you to reconsider the points that Ceredig is making. He might be a troll, he might be a fanboy, an apologist, a snitch, a Turbine employee. I neither know nor care. I do know that even if he is all of those things, it doesn't stop him from being right sometimes, and this time he is.

And you all know damn well that I'm no Turbine fanboy! ;)

Sorry about the post, but I got fed up with post after post of hair-splitting and largely irrelevant semantics, somewhere halfway down page 3!

P.S. If someone wants to PM me the text of that image (I've no idea how to grab it, and no interest in learning how! ;)), I'll have a go at re-writing it, when I can find time.

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First of all, thanks Ivaed for writing the post you did. It was never going to stay up and you knew this and felt it needed to be said anyways and I for one am glad you did. I think it was very well written and putting forwards what you wanted to say in such a way that it would not get a deletion would be somewhere between impossible or so wordy as to completely obfuscate your point in an effort to not directly say your thoughts.

The thing is that the forums are a marketing tool and so they are managed in such a way as to primarily show a positive image of Turbine and lotro. If this is the case then they need to state that and stop claiming for the forums to be 'open' etc as that would be a deceptive trade practice. So yes they can moderate their forums any way they like, but they cannot claim the forums to not be heavily moderated against negative opinions while doing just that.

Second of all I would like to thank those who took screenshots! Without the screenshot I would have missed the post completely and this thread would have required a lot more speculation about it all.

Third of all I would like to challenge the quote above. If 'fanbois' or 'cheerleaders' is enough to get a post deleted then the same must go for 'hater' 'complainer' 'whiner' to name a few - of which I see many, many times.

I am not saying the above is the only reason the post could have been deleted, but Celestra singled out this reason in her reply. I think its time we stop tolerating the above words altogether, what goes for one 'side' must work also for the 'other.

It is subjective but in my own subjective opinion the CoC protects against individual attacks an Ivaer did not mention names or make it personal to one person at all, he simply stated his own opinion towards those who would consider themselves in that group. After all, if someone didn't consider themselves a 'fanbois' or 'cheerleader' then no offence an be taken can it? :)

Evidence:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?415560-This-is-for-all-the-doomsayers-whiners-and-rage-quit-people.

Thread closed not deleted and the name calling is in the title

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?427698-Once-a-great-game-amp-playerbase-...gone&p=5779029&highlight=whiner#post5779029

Thread closed not deleted of note 'It's a game Stupid'. So name calling posts are allowed to exist...

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?425889-How-about-a-Canadian-only-contest/page2&p=5766166#post5766166

Calling a specific 'bunch' of players whiners for putting their point across

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?427286-Gibbets-and-crows-Rise-of-Isengard-and-the-state-of-LotRO/page3&p=5773733#post5773733

He lies in a first lines. U3 had 4 instances not 2. I didn't read it but can imagine the other part. Another mindless hater.

These are what I came up with in less than 5 mins with a simple search. I admit it is a biased search. I also found evidence of posts where terms such as 'fanbois' were used and not moderated (at least not openly so) and most amusing were the posts where someone said words such as 'I don't want to sound like a whiner...'. If the CoC rules extend to the PvP forums they would have to hire a new team of moderators for enforcement!

The CoC is clearly subjective and more posts than not are worthy or deletion for breaking the CoC if it were to be strictly enforced. The point is that there are may posts such as the last one that clearly is against the 'rules' by any interpretation of the CoC and yet are left unmoderated while other posts which are only potentially against the CoC based on interpretation are heavily moderated. This is not acceptable. The thing about the last post linked above is that the thread was clearly read by the moderators so there should be no need for 'reporting' the post to flag it for their attention.

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That sounds like uncommon nonsense to me. Of course the moderators can close the thread because the word fanboy is postet. They could also think for two cents and stop acting like they are codes that work on a routine, but start acting like intelligent persons. I hate people treating other people as if they are stupid. I hate the internets for providing cowards a playground for their misleading argumentation. They would never have the guts to say such things when a face-to-face argument was going on. Or maybe they are too smart to say obovious nonesense if it can be directly assinged to them.

You just can not say 'your forum moderation is BS' without saying 'the work you, the moderators, do is BS'. And to end my post i may say, the moderation of the official forums is BS.

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I agree with Ceredig too.

In addition, I am disappointed with those posting here who are so 'anti Turbine' that they are no longer able to take a step back and evaluate their own words. Now they even go as low as turning against those who call for reason.

This makes these forums too, for me, an unpleasant place to read/post.

If what is happening on the official forums/with the game has a player so stressed out that the player/poster becomes unreasonable and/or can no longer disconnect from being angry/upset etc. then there is just one option left that is healthy: walk away. Accept that you donot agree with what you see/feel is happening, in your opinion/experience: the wrong thing, and accept that you cannot change it. That doesn't mean that what is happening is ok/good/acceptable, but it's not worth it to no longer be polite etc.

Recently I went back to playing Lotro quite intensely, and it's reading the forums there (and here by the way) that impacts that game play in a negative way.

It's actually quite annoying to see that it is mostly the same group of posters here who are most vocal 'over there', and it's boring to read the same angry posts over and over.

This leads me to question what the motives are of those who want to express themselves this angry, this often, and what they think to gain from becoming very worked up in a post. Do you hope that f2p will disappear? That the store will disappear? That Turbine will go back to 'how it was' (was it really that good?)? Is it realistic to expect things to go back to how you liked it? Is it worth it to become this upset about how a computer game is run?

Or is it just by chance that at this moment it's Turbine who you rage at, and will it be another 'cause' next year or in three months? Is it mostly 'writing posts' 'proving something' or 'rightfully feeling treated wrongly' that keeps you going? What point is there in that? But if this is why someone keeps posting, while also stating to be very very upset, I question whether one is really upset with what is happening or enjoys it. I really wonder what those who continuously vent their discontent get out of it.

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I receive email alerts for new posts on the lotro forums so I happened to have my post saved in text format in my work email.

Here it is for future reference:

I never thought I would be doing this, but here goes. I am a long time customer, and up until very recently, an avid turbine fan, but there are some things going on here that I just cannot ignore any longer. It is against my personal beliefs to support it and it is against my very nature to just sit by while it happens right before my eyes.

These forums are supposed to be about providing an outlet for people to express their opinions and observations about this game in a rational, well mannered way and they have deviated FAR from that point over the last few months. I have seen close friends, kin, and allies banned and chastised openly and covertly on these boards for simply having the sense to see something amiss and then try to express their desire to see it corrected in a polite and unoffensive manner. I cannot possibly begin to list the number of atrocities that have occurred here as of late by the community management team, and I just want to say that I have seen enough, I have heard enough, and I know that I am not nearly alone in this.

These boards have become little more than a place for fanboys and turbine cheerleaders to post information on how great the game is and how everyone should come play it. It has become a marketing hub to push dollars into Turbine's pocket.

There have been countless threads locked, countless users infracted, banned, etc. who simply care about this game. People that have invested large portions of their lives into this game and that want to see it succeed and become better instead of just sitting by watching it become more and more of a cash grab every day that goes by. They want to see a customer/community service team that cares about making everything related to lotro a more positive experience instead of just taking constructive criticisms and sweeping them away into a place where no one can see. It happens every single day without fail and I have just come to a point where I have seen enough.

I can plainly see that the lotro "ToS" has been warped and misconstrued in many many cases by the CM's to allow for deletions and silences of genuine honest complaints. Complaints that up until recently would have been freely and eagerly accepted by turbine as a very powerful source of feedback rather than the annoyance that must be "handled" that they have become. Lies have been told about our freedom of opinion here as well. The fact of it is, there are very very few things that can be said that cannot be interpreted to violate the ToS in some way or another, and when the negative feedback comes along, the delete key gets used. It has been carefully crafted in such a way to allow the mods to just do whatever they want here and have their "reasons" to back it up. Very sad indeed.

I know that this thread will probably soon be locked/deleted under some technicality just like all of the other ones that have sprouted up recently, but know this. We are not blind, we are not without our resources and we are not all going to just sit by and watch this occur. There are many of us that have profound influence within our servers and our game communities and we will not just walk away while this goes on behind the backs of our friends and allies. We will make 100% sure that all of them know the truth of the injustice of the situation here on these boards most utterly and completely before the end of our time here, if it comes to that.

I truly encourage all of you to move your forum activity over to http://www.lotrocommunity.com

It's not a perfect situation, and there is some bitterness that is shown there, as should be expected, but at least you can feel safe in knowing your opinions and thoughts will be heard and read no matter whether they are critical in nature or not. The devs here are watching the boards over there despite the lies the mods will come out with here on the "official" forums.

Like I said, I never thought a day where I felt this way about my favorite game company would come, but it has. I am deeply saddened by what is occurring here, but I just can't stand by any longer. If enough people take a stand maybe something can be done before all is lost.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I notice a lot of posts and threads being deleted lately because I see them in my email but I can no longer find them when I follow the link from my email.

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