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In addition, I am disappointed with those posting here who are so 'anti Turbine' that they are no longer able to take a step back and evaluate their own words. Now they even go as low as turning against those who call for reason.

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I really like reason, don't see her often but that's not her fault.

Of course you are right that hating Trubine doesn't lead anywhere usefull, at least it's fun. I don't care enough about this game to get involved and i'm happy about this. I can imagine though, that after months (maybe years) of constructive criticism one may get angry, stop being constructive and start hating/trolling. I have to see this member yet, almost every post i read tries to improve things. Some only state the current situation, but most give advise or tipps that obviously fall on deaf ears. After being treat in this manner, i could understand desperate and hating post, still i can not find many.

Back to my initial quote and the mentioned reason. What do you mean by it? I don't want any dictionary quote, i want to know which call i've missed. I can be shortsighted, so please show me what you meant so i can reconsider my pov.

edit:

Ah, i meant: Please show me where a call for reason is answered with a low blow.

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If someone is passionate about something - or feels they have been wronged - or sees others being wronged first-hand - and knows these experiences to be different from (how you say) "the way it used t

Disagree. It's not name-calling. It's bringing one's actions to light. "You lied." Something you did. "You're a liar." Something you are. There is a difference and it's subjective. Let's leave it at t

It was my thread and my post, and like I said in the thread on the "Official Forums" I have just had enough of their BS. The fact that my thread was just deleted with absolutely NO warning and no reas

I can't say I completely dissagree with Wickeds post. Some 'anti turbine' posters are coming across as no different and just as vehement in there hatred as those they label as 'fanboys' are passionate about defending Turbine.

I agree with this and it is giving this forum a bad reputation as some people seem to think it is have for conspiracies and the hatred of Turbine

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do you really think, that by just playing the game and keeping shut about the blatant disregard of Turbine regarding it's customers everything will become fine?

Why on Earth should I argue with you, when you obviously have no problem with Turbine's policies, as you don't see a problem with them, but us, because we are 'discontent'.

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No one is claiming that you shouldn't voice your discontent, indeed I myself am not happy with the direction of the game and if there is any place to voice that discontent without fear of reprisal then it is here. Please though do so without resorting to insults or name calling. If you expect someone to read your posts and see your point of view then its only resonable that conflicting points of view should also be treated with the same amount of respect.

Please note I'm not talking about you specifically but more about the tone of some posts in general that are begining to be seen here.

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In addition, I am disappointed with those posting here who are so 'anti Turbine' that they are no longer able to take a step back and evaluate their own words. Now they even go as low as turning against those who call for reason.

If someone is passionate about something - or feels they have been wronged - or sees others being wronged first-hand - and knows these experiences to be different from (how you say) "the way it used to be", they're going to say their piece. Some of it might be a touch inflamed, but pointedly telling someone they are being unreasonable (basically, that's what calling for reason does to that person), it can be perceived as an invalidation of their feelings.

For many people, seeming "so anti-Turbine" is a step in a certain direction (probably away from the game) and it's not your place to tell them how they should feel, react or proceed.

You don't know what they've been through. You don't know what they've experienced. You don't know the amount of time and energy they've put into their LotRO experience. You don't know how they deal with hopeless situations - and frankly, it's not yours (or mine) to say. So long as people remain respectful of other participants in the discussion, anything should be on the table. Telling someone they are being unreasonable is only fanning the flames until that person proceeds to the next step in their grief.

This makes these forums too, for me, an unpleasant place to read/post.

Really, what did you expect? This forum was founded largely because of discontent with what the Turbine Community Team turned the official forums into. It's a place for some to vent without fear of repercussions. It's a place for some people to get the truth out there without danger of being censored. The very foundation of this place rests largely on discontent with the Turbine Community Team. You knew that, right?

If what is happening on the official forums/with the game has a player so stressed out that the player/poster becomes unreasonable and/or can no longer disconnect from being angry/upset etc. then there is just one option left that is healthy: walk away. Accept that you donot agree with what you see/feel is happening, in your opinion/experience: the wrong thing, and accept that you cannot change it. That doesn't mean that what is happening is ok/good/acceptable, but it's not worth it to no longer be polite etc.

That might be the right thing for you, but some people still want to play the game. It will take time, but they'll get over it. And maybe things will get better once Sap is sent packing. You can equate someone's loss of part of the game experience (the forums) to sort of a grieving process. Telling people they care too much isn't fair. It might be right for you, but you don't know what's right for others. Telling someone "this" is the right way to deal with a situation is, quite frankly, a titch over-reaching on your part. You aren't their keeper and you aren't their self-help guru.

This leads me to question what the motives are of those who want to express themselves this angry, this often, and what they think to gain from becoming very worked up in a post. Do you hope that f2p will disappear? That the store will disappear? That Turbine will go back to 'how it was' (was it really that good?)? Is it realistic to expect things to go back to how you liked it? Is it worth it to become this upset about how a computer game is run?

If it was me, I'd hope that I'd get a few more people to realize what an effed-up thing they have going on over there. No one is silly enough to think they can single-handedly change WB's business decisions by posting to a video game forum.

If you're so tired of reading negative threads, then don't click on things that you know aren't likely going to be reflected in a good light.

Or is it just by chance that at this moment it's Turbine who you rage at, and will it be another 'cause' next year or in three months? Is it mostly 'writing posts' 'proving something' or 'rightfully feeling treated wrongly' that keeps you going? What point is there in that? But if this is why someone keeps posting, while also stating to be very very upset, I question whether one is really upset with what is happening or enjoys it. I really wonder what those who continuously vent their discontent get out of it.

The Community is not the game. I detest the current Community Team and what it's about yet I can still have fun in the game. Granted, even that is diminishing of late - but it has nothing to do with the Community Team. I think most people around here want the truth to be known since they can't do it at the other place. It's not your place to question anyone's motives unless you also want yours questioned.

So why are you here? Why are you wasting your time trying to make people appear less than you? Why do you think you're in any place to tell people the "correct" reaction? What is the point of folks of the opposite nature rah-rah-ing everything Turbine poops out?

Some people are critical because they care - not because they like to complain. Because they have standards that likely used to be met, but aren't being met. Some people have invested in Lifetime subscriptions and don't like the current state of the Community and/or game. They have every right to complain as much as they want. Your attempts to invalidate them are no more realistic or valid than anyone's complaints. Realize that.

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The reason I can't agree with Ceredig is that in this thread, he just keeps arguing with anyone who posted that Turbine does anything wrong. To me, the CM staff are not perfect, and they do things like delete threads, when they could just close them. The threads that are critical of Turbine are the ones we see deleted and not close, or closed without an explanation like the recent raid thread. I just don't agree with Ceredig that the staff are not biased; they use their moderation powers to help the image of Turbine in general by hiding some dissent and criticism. I do not hate Turbine or the CM staff - they have their good points and do allow some criticism on the forums in threads. I just don't see them as consistent or particularly fair that often.

Secondly, lets take the thread started by Ivead that was deleted. The first page of replys was HEAVILY dominated by posts cutting him down, ridiculing him, and debating with him, calling him foolish and ridiculous in essence. And of course not in any way acknowledging that any of his points were valid. It was a shocking to me - because I did not see any posts other than these - no posts that showed respect or the other point of view. (I think on the second page there were some posts in support of the OP). Also, almost of all of these posts were by the regular posters who do this ALL THE TIME in many threads. What should we call them? Defenders, fanboys? or people who just like to argue, do it without respect, and are never willing to admit that Turbine or its staff do anything wrong.

These people hurt the community. Maybe people who are totally negative (and not constructive that complain about Turbine) also hurt the community. But the unrespectful Defenders clearly do hurt the community.

So my question? Is it ok for anyone to talk about this? This is something that happens: someone brings up something they don't like (and want to see change because they love the game and the community). They then get debated and harassed without any respect by players who do this all the time.

This is reality and Ivead was bringing this up for discussion. The CMs used the fact that she said there are fanboys on the forums (but did no name calling of anyone) to delete the whole thread and prevent the community from discussing this issue. This is censorship: that it is not ok to discuss what these Defenders are doing, how they have no respect, and how they hurt the community.

Lastly, it is interesting that Ceredig and others here will not acknowledge that the CMs could have locked the thread but instead deleted it. Can't you see how it could be perceived as unfair if threads critical of Turbine get erased, while threads that praise Turbine do not?

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Can't you see how it could be perceived as unfair if threads critical of Turbine get erased, while threads that praise Turbine do not?

to be honest ... what do you expect from an official game forum hosted by the dev/publisher of the game? especially if this company isn't known to take criticism very well?

and not only that ... regarding the fact they - at least mentioned something like that sometime ago - even consider rewarding those who "contribute" to the community (i.e. snivel and grovel their way up turbine's poophole).

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I agree with this and it is giving this forum a bad reputation as some people seem to think it is have for conspiracies and the hatred of Turbine

Exactly. There are some people on this forum, and specifically in this thread, who are so overboard in their hatred (because that's what it comes across as) of Turbine that they can't seem to see anything that doesn't criticise Turbine as defending Turbine. While I don't necessarily agree with all of Ceredig's points, some of them are valid. Unfortunately some people (in this case mainly Darmokk) just see that as "defending Turbine, must kill" and start an argument. You are doing exactly what you complain about people like Arbalister doing on the official forums. How about giving it a rest with the name calling and the attacks, and trying to have a proper discussion if that's actually what you want? The same rules apply here as on the main forum with posts you think are trolling: ignore or report them instead of replying.

The continual attacks against anyone who has an even slightly pro-Turbine opinion in this and other threads just gives the whole forum a bad name. How can you not see that acting in this way puts people off from joining, and just gives more evidence to people who say that this forum is just for angry, paranoid people who hate Turbine? People who have come here from the main forums with a balanced view have been driven away by this kind of attitude. Take Khafar for example. The whole time he was here, he posted in a respectful manner, didn't seem to come down hard on either side of the fence. Yet the attitude that is becoming prevalent on this forum made him no longer wish to be part of it:

Actually, he is - some smallish ISP in Canada. Has been ever since I first met him when he was a World Overseer for Asheron's Call (before Turbine shut down their volunteer program). He also wrote one of those Prima guides for AC, and like me, he's been in essentially every NDA program Turbine's had over the past 12 years. I don't know whether he's still in one, and wouldn't say if I did.

But hey, if you all feel good about hurling insults at him over here where it's "safe" for such dreck... I'm not going to try and stop you. I do feel that my stay here is getting over-long, however. Later, all. May you all find games (and game companies) that you enjoy more. I plan to.

Khafar

Some people here like to shout about how this forum is the great alternative to Turbine's, but in reality it isn't. Currently it seems that the only way you'll really fit in here is if you have some great hatred of Turbine that blinds you to everything else. This forum started as a place to keep the EU community together, to keep the spirit of CM's forums alive. At this point in time, its failing very badly, mostly due to a few people who are so obsessed with picking out Turbine's faults that they can't concentrate on anything else.

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to be honest ... what do you expect from an official game forum hosted by the dev/publisher of the game? especially if this company isn't known to take criticism very well?

What I expect is an honest evaluation.

That it are their forums ain't change that fact.

calling someone a fanboi is not tolerated but calling someone a whiner, crybaby, hater is tolerared.

That is bending the rules in favor of Turbine defenders. Plain and simple.

That some her are somewhat bitter in their tone is understandable.

Maybe a count to 10 is sometimes better but I do understand their frustration so I give them some slack.

As you also see Muer just posted a message to ask to cooldown a bit.

At Turbine some posts would have dissapeared(Mainly the complainer ones ofcourse) and/or the thread would have been closed already.

See, here are rules too, but the rules are used in an honest way without favoring Turbine defenders or those who have issues with Turbine/LOTRO.

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Exactly. There are some people on this forum, and specifically in this thread, who are so overboard in their hatred (because that's what it comes across as) of Turbine that they can't seem to see anything that doesn't criticise Turbine as defending Turbine.

So be a part of this community as someone who does not hate Turbine. We are the community - we make it with our presence and posts. Yes some people here seem extreme in their views or posts, but it is possible to just ignore them. I think there are reasonable, respectful people here too - we just need more.

It shouldn't be a big deal if some people on the forums have different views. I totally understand feeling like many posts here are too anti-turbine, but I also feel there are a lot of legitimate complaints, particularly about the CMs there. And there is no other alternative forum that I know of. That is why I am here. I cannot respectfully and reasonably discuss certain things on the official forums.

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Really, what did you expect? This forum was founded largely because of discontent with what the Turbine Community Team turned the official forums into. It's a place for some to vent without fear of repercussions. It's a place for some people to get the truth out there without danger of being censored. The very foundation of this place rests largely on discontent with the Turbine Community Team. You knew that, right?

I have to step in here and dispute this, as it's an incorrect view of this board. The board had its genesis based on the fact that the Codemasters LOTRO board was closing down. As a continuation and facilitation of the type of community that Codies' customers had, Rhyaehar and others started this board so relationships that they enjoyed would not be lost in the tumult that was Turbine's reassumption of the EU server customer base. I was accorded the privilege (not the right), as an NA LOTRO player, to post here, and I can't take that seriously enough, especially now that so many other NA LOTRO players are registering forum accounts here.

The reason we can have such open discussions concerning all aspects of LOTRO and its governing company is because of the auspice and philosophy of the board's owner, especially with regards to how friendly debate should happen. A lot of the topics and discussions here are a reflection, in a way, of how Turbine's forums should have been; if there's a notable contrast between the two boards, that's largely it. Also, it seems odd to me that, with so many other sections of the board available for different topics (RP, off topic, etc.), people aren't using the entirety of the forum to communicate in all ways that we can. It just seems a waste to me, but that's just me.

A lot of times, given my experiences with Turbine, I have to check myself, to be certain that I'm not violating the rules of this board, and I can't say that I've been 100% successful at that. However, while I can't change the past, I can keep improving in future, because I'm not the only one influenced by what I post. I'm not about to tell any of you what to do, but I thought it important to share my impressions and experience with this board, in the hope that others might share them.

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FWIW, I plan to be a little less forward on this forum.

DarkCnty is a red flag and I am convinced I'm right about thinking the worst of him. He clearly tried to steer threads here off topic, lower the signal/noise ratio and get people into fights. He is not a valuable addition to any forum. I have no plans, however, to go after general Turbine supporters, and never had.

And in the nuked thread discussed here I made that very clear. I interacted with two Turbine supporters who did not belong to my short list of known trolls. They felt that that supporting Turbine was somehow unwelcome and I pointed out that neither me not anyone else ever expressed anything wrong with their posts. These Turbine supporters are as much, if not more, victims of the aggressive thread-destroyers that act in Turbine's interest to close down discontent and make it disappear from public view. Too bad we can't see this interaction anymore.

I can only repeat that the list of people who do this is very short. Just the list of forum aliases is 7 or less and who knows how many actual people are behind it. I could point out a higher number of reasonable Turbine supporters in a couple minutes.

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Really, what did you expect? This forum was founded largely because of discontent with what the Turbine Community Team turned the official forums into. It's a place for some to vent without fear of repercussions. It's a place for some people to get the truth out there without danger of being censored. The very foundation of this place rests largely on discontent with the Turbine Community Team. You knew that, right?

No.

It only appears this way because Sapience has overdone his tight grip on the official forums. The art of running an official forum is to allow just the right balance between displaying a positive view of company and product but allow enough expression of discontent so that people stay on that official forum. If you tighten the noose too much they might run and express themselves on an external forum that you have no control over whatsoever.

This balance is critical and many official forums are very careful in their steering to not lose track of that latter goal.

Sapience has failed on this. He has given several large pushes that made people come to the most obvious external place, here. It didn't help that non-Sapience events like the leak of passwords from the forum database happened around the same time, but either way, that was Turbine's fault for the leak in the first place and WB's fault for the (lack of) communication afterwards and gave another large push.

Now critical mass has been reached on this forum and it grows on it's own. This is exactly what the book of official forum maintenance says you need to prevent at all cost.

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I have to step in here and dispute this, as it's an incorrect view of this board. The board had its genesis based on the fact that the Codemasters LOTRO board was closing down. As a continuation and facilitation of the type of community that Codies' customers had, Rhyaehar and others started this board so relationships that they enjoyed would not be lost in the tumult that was Turbine's reassumption of the EU server customer base. I was accorded the privilege (not the right), as an NA LOTRO player, to post here, and I can't take that seriously enough, especially now that so many other NA LOTRO players are registering forum accounts here.

Almost completely correct. I dare say Rhy will step in & say his tuppenyworth in due course, but since he's not yet... There are, as far as I am aware, two reasons for the existence of this board.

1. It provides a Euro-based forum to replace the defunct CM forum.

2. It allowed Rhy's company, with permission from his boss Nils (who also posts here from time to time), to perform a thorough evaluation of new forum software (this is not vBulletin; also note the large reddish banner at the bottom of the page).

It had absolutely nothing to do with Turbine's forums. It may be true that a lot of Turbine forum users have migrated here for whatever reason; 'tain't why it was founded; not largely, not smally, not minutely. ;)

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Then I'll take the blame for misunderstanding what the genesis of this board was all about. My bad.

But having been around for a bit over a month and reading up on quite a lot of the posts that were made both since and before I came here, I believe I came to a very logical assumption and I certainly wouldn't have pulled that out of the blue. That I won't take the blame for, sorry. Look around. Look at what most of the activity is about and tell me if it's become what it was intended to be following such innocent intent? Intentions are one thing - reality quite another.

Like it or not, this community has become one that is very critical of Turbine. It's no wonder that people who don't share that view are kept away or at bay. Their perception is the vast minority at this point.

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As to the responses, presumably, to my sticking up for Ceredig. I said recently on another thread to another poster "Can 't we find another bone to chew?" No-one's suggesting you can't complain when there is a legitimate cause for complaint. However, seriously chaps, take a look at the thread list in here. How many of those are anti-Turbine? How many are not?

The default position of a lot of the most active posters seems to be not even "Do we bash Turbine today?", but "What shall we bash Turbine with today?" It comes to something when I'm stepping in, appearing to be pro-Turbine. If you keep repeating & re-hashing the same complaints over & over & over, all you'll do is kill the forum.

In summary:

* Many people think Turbine's moderation is beyond heavy-handed

* Many people think Turbine's customer service is crap

* Many people think their management's attitude is to treat LOTRO as a cash-cow

* Many people distrust Turbine's stewardship of LOTRO at present, and fear for the future of a game they love.

Now, new bone? Please? ;)

P.S. Ivaed - thanks, I'll try to find time to write something that conveys what you wanted in thoroughly non-stick fashion, but I certainly won't have time before the weekend. Also thanks to Wicked, who I just noticed (10 mins later) has PMed me the same.

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The reason I can't agree with Ceredig is that in this thread, he just keeps arguing with anyone who posted that Turbine does anything wrong.

No I am arguing with people who believe that Ivaed's post was flawless.

I just don't agree with Ceredig that the staff are not biased;

I never made such a ridiculous statement. Of course they are biased. But then again so are you and so is everyone else in some form or another on this issue.

Lastly, it is interesting that Ceredig and others here will not acknowledge that the CMs could have locked the thread but instead deleted it.

I never acknowledged it because a) it was not pertinent to my argument and B) it was self evident.
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But having been around for a bit over a month and reading up on quite a lot of the posts that were made both since and before I came here, I believe I came to a very logical assumption and I certainly wouldn't have pulled that out of the blue. That I won't take the blame for, sorry. Look around. Look at what most of the activity is about and tell me if it's become what it was intended to be following such innocent intent? Intentions are one thing - reality quite another.

Like it or not, this community has become one that is very critical of Turbine. It's no wonder that people who don't share that view are kept away or at bay. Their perception is the vast minority at this point.

Which is exactly why some of us are now stepping in & asking the critics to tone it down a bit. Particularly since 1) most of the critics claim to be reasonable, yet 2) a couple of people trying to argue against them are being called trolls & other such unpleasantness...

Or to put it another way, if you lot don't stop forcing me to play Mr. Nice & Reasonable, Rhy's likely to make me a Moderator, and neither of us wants that! ;)

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Being critical is not the problem, it is they some people are critical. They belittle others opinions and open debate has in recent days turned into personal attacks on other members.

This has lead to this forum receiving a bad reputation which now also breaches Turbines community guidelines so people have had their forum signature altered to remove any reference.

I for one hope this will change asap, as I like this forum but it needs to go back to the original intentions. By all means post about frustrations and grievances but do it without personal attacks at other members or companies employees.

There are people on the Turbine forum I disagree with and would love to have an chance to have a discussion with, without it descending into chaos, but they would post here as they think this is just a Turbine haters forum and given some recent posts I can see how they could reach that conclusion

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This has lead to this forum receiving a bad reputation which now also breaches Turbines community guidelines so people have had their forum signature altered to remove any reference.

I don't follow the forum accurately and frequently but i could also come to the conclusion that if there are so many desperate Turbine defenders on their forum, wouldn't it be logical that it is those "fanbois" that click on bad reputation thing on purpose? Even Turbione could send an internal "order" to every employee to give this forum bad rep every day upon turning the pc on (not sure if it's possible to rate sites multiple times). It doesn't have to mean that this forum is getting worse although i see one big difference: not so long ago there were'nt so many anti-Turbine threads but now it is indeed turning slowly into an anti-Turbine forum.

I undersatnd why is it happening but come on...

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Being critical is not the problem, it is they some people are critical. They belittle others opinions and open debate has in recent days turned into personal attacks on other members.

I agree this can lessen the validity of the forum as a whole, even though it really should only lessen the validity of the individual poster(s). Does some fanatical Turbine loyalist ruin the validity of someone who does a Hunter DPS rotation analysis and posts to the same forum? I don't think so, personally.

This has lead to this forum receiving a bad reputation which now also breaches Turbines community guidelines so people have had their forum signature altered to remove any reference.

Sapience has been alluding to this forum in a non-positive light for a while now. What purpose do you think he thinks it served even from soon after its inception? (not that anyone should necessarily care) Read the titles of the threads in the General Discussion forum. Go back months if you wish. Any random-sampling of those thread titles alone would be enough to get the mods of the "official forums" to view this site in a negative light. Just saying...it is largely what it's been. I agree, nip the childish name-calling and infighting in the bud, but you can't say this site only recently morphed into a forum where you could vent about the goings-on. I think lots of people appreciate that it is, but don't be surprised that people take it and run with it. That's what happens...

There are people on the Turbine forum I disagree with and would love to have an chance to have a discussion with, without it descending into chaos, but they would post here as they think this is just a Turbine haters forum and given some recent posts I can see how they could reach that conclusion.

See above. The Turbine critiques are well-established and hardly recent-term. Most people aren't going to come here unassumingly because they are happy with the official community. They already have their community, right? If they are happy with the official community and they do come here, you can bet it's with an agenda that doesn't coexist well with many of the residents here. No sense in mincing words about that. Now if the debate can be conducted respectfully, that's another thing. But no one's likely going to convince anyone to change their opposing view. Something like that takes personal experiences - and it's no ones place to fault someone else for feeling the way they do about the experiences they've had. In a public forum, decency should ultimately prevail though. I think the vast majority of people here respect and adhere to that. Myself included.

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If someone is passionate about something - or feels they have been wronged - or sees others being wronged first-hand - and knows these experiences to be different from (how you say) "the way it used to be", they're going to say their piece. Some of it might be a touch inflamed, but pointedly telling someone they are being unreasonable (basically, that's what calling for reason does to that person), it can be perceived as an invalidation of their feelings.

For many people, seeming "so anti-Turbine" is a step in a certain direction (probably away from the game) and it's not your place to tell them how they should feel, react or proceed.

You don't know what they've been through. You don't know what they've experienced. You don't know the amount of time and energy they've put into their LotRO experience. You don't know how they deal with hopeless situations - and frankly, it's not yours (or mine) to say. So long as people remain respectful of other participants in the discussion, anything should be on the table. Telling someone they are being unreasonable is only fanning the flames until that person proceeds to the next step in their grief.

This is very eloquently worded, and expresses what I think is perhaps the crux of the matter. Very well done.

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If you're so tired of reading negative threads, then don't click on things that you know aren't likely going to be reflected in a good light.

This is a good piece of advice. In forums, one of the things I see come up frequently by the opposing point of view (compared to the OP) is that they post just to disagree, flame, rant, troll, whatever you wish to call it. These aren't a one channel station, there are many threads, and really, by posting, you only keep the thread alive and on the front page. If you find that someones post is so full of fail it doesn't warrant any attention, DON'T GIVE IT ANY. If however, your intent is to get a thread locked or removed to force it away, then you are attempting to censor by proxy of the moderation team and CS, if not already an employee in lurk mode, and that's not what a forum is about. At least not here anyway. (Not using the you specific, but the you universal)

One of the things I also see is that some can't let anyone have the last word. At all. Even in a losing proposition, they have to 'win' by having the final say. This includes some of the moderation over there, where a thread may simply be locked with an explanation, but the topic of the thread is valid and still needs discussion and exposure. People that bury opinions are being fascist in there actions, whether they know it or not, even if the intent is not to be like that. In the end, the only thing people have to judge intent by is the actions taken. In particular, if the company has a direction that merits the sort of discontent that long time customers think it does, that disconnect should have a voice, even if the statements and proofs paint the company in a bad or damaging light.

Truth is truth, you can't pretend it isn't by just hiding it away or ignoring it. The recent spate of credit card charges and continued hacks after the breach, the lack of real responses to simple questions, the continued moderation of acceptable posts, the blatant fabrication or destruction of evidence (Bohunks issues and the 'convenience not advantage statement', for starters), the list goes on. Even the recent proof that the site stores pre-posts that may be capable of being read. How anyone can witness these and pretend they are not real, or worse, think they are justified, is simply a sad commentary about society in general. And Turbine in particular.

I still play because my friends do, and they have yet to have any serious problems, mainly in part because they don't really use the forums, they are already aware of the methods used there. They also know the game has serious problems, and that the store is a slap in the face to subscribers, and that even the fact that people can't get true value for their currency differences paints Turbine in a bad light, even if Turbine passes the buck off to the banking world. When a simple monthly payment doesn't grant the equivalent of a TP card purchase for 10 dollars, something is very wrong.

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