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Turning over a new leaf.


Alcarinque
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I think 2 years ago Turbine knew the future of Lotro did not look good without FTP. For some reason they did not have the money to pay developers to produce a steady stream of good content (hence the content slow down in the years before F2P). They did not have the high subscription numbers to have money for good content, and they did not have the good content to increase the sub numbers; a vicious cycle that was resulting in a slowly dying, stale game.

The FTP change was made, and they sold the company. Management found a great solution in selling the company. This is fantastic for management - all that cash gotten in the sale. The Turbine owners won in this sale big time.

Now, I think FTP is going great, lots of money is being made. The reason why Turbine is not improving relations with its players: they don't need to. The plan is WAI. Tons of new players and lots of money coming in the store. Unhappy long time players leave, but this does not affect the bottom line. They just don't need a happy old time player base; they don't need to produce great content above a certain level(they have enough players and new ones are coming to try the game all the time). Everything is working as intended; management is very happy. The cow is being milked. Staff at Turbine are trying to do the best they can, but clearly there is no big investment in more development staff (hence ROI's lack of finished instances, etc.). I am sure some Turbine staff are frustrated just like us players.

Message to new players (by Turbine): come on in, it's great here.

Message to old players (by Turbine): no comment (you guys just don't matter much to us now)

Message to old players (by me): Move along, this is not he game you're looking for. Its just not going to happen, sadly.

Making money is a bigger priority than making the best game possible (or keeping player satisfaction of longer term players).

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I'll first apologise for 1, 2, & 3. I was a bit pissed when I posted, I was also very, very tired. So I was a bit tactless. However...

Yes, it tells me you are a commenter, and not a creator. Nothing wrong with that. Some people create things, others follow what's been created and chime in their two cents.

I'm not creative. Quite right. And you've visited the Bird & Baby? Alca, I'm sure they must exist, but I can't remember a post of yours that isn't bashing Turbine. Constantly repeating your complaints is not creative. It's just repetitive. I'll agree that, yes, this is a much more useful & purposeful thread than many of your others. Nevertheless, Dal has kindly found MueR's words. This forum is not a Turbine slagfest, whatever you may think.

I'm not asking you to stop posting; I'm asking you to tone it down, to give us something else as well. You've started a considerable number of threads, made a considerable number of posts; they're all negative (or that's what it feels like to me and, I'm sure, to others). We, all of us, stand more chance of making an impression on Turbine if we are not perceived as "Enemy". You're only reinforcing "Enemy" and you're not influencing Turbine at all. Consider a change of tactics? ;)

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Unfortunately, I fear you aren't going to love Turbine into changing their policies any time soon.

Nor are you going to accomplish anything by pretending to have the 'high ground', and being oh so 'reasonable'.

Some of us have tried that. For YEARS. Do you know what result it has had? Nil. Zero. Nadda. Nothing.

However, if you'd rather make excuses and hide behind supposed higher ideals, whilst your opponents run roughshod all over you and use your tolerance against you, you may of course do so. But, hey, that's just my opinion. You have yours.

I will not kowtow to them, I will not speak kindly of those who are unkind, and I shall not sit there whilst Rome is burning and say that it's only a small campfire, when the entire city is ablaze. Pioneering the kind of change that is required to save LOTRO as a viable game will likely never come through this website/forum.

With all due respect, I don't think it has the stones.

You'd rather be cuddly and make nice than take the hard line such a stance requires, and actually DO something about it, such as boycott the parent company that is ultimately responsible for this farce.

But that is not the fault of this forum. I simply mistook it for something it was not. That was entirely MY mistake, and I claim 100% responsibility for that.

So to that end, I'll probably step away from this forum. Much to your rejoicing I am sure, as I seem to be the composer of negativity.

Life is not all fluffy bunnies and fuzzy peaches. Sometimes you DO have to push back.

I'm sorry if you find that negative.

Edit: (Removed Magna Carta comment.Apologies if it got anyone's knickers in a wad.)

So, cheerio Raedwulf. May your aeries receive you at your journey's end.

Edit:

I wish you luck with Turbine. Years of effort has taught me the following lesson that perhaps you still need to learn:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein
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Christ, you really are an idiot. I'm neither cuddly nor tolerant, especially not where Turbine is concerned. I'm only so compared with your bile. You have no effect on Turbine. If they even know you exist (which I doubt), you're no more than a fly-speck on their light-bulb. Yes, sometimes you do have to push back. Unfortunately, you don't seem to know how to do anything except run bull-headed at a brick wall.

Einstein's quote suits you very well. Me? I've already said I'm only marking time. I'm waiting for GW2; nothing is going to save LOTRO from Turbine. But without you, maybe THIS community will continue to grow...

{120 posts in 10 days. All of them, seemingly, the same. Says it all really}

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Christ, you really are an idiot.

Contain yourself sir.

I'm neither cuddly nor tolerant, especially not where Turbine is concerned. I'm only so compared with your bile.

See above sentence.

You have no effect on Turbine. If they even know you exist (which I doubt), you're no more than a fly-speck on their light-bulb.

I'm glad you think so.

Yes, sometimes you do have to push back. Unfortunately, you don't seem to know how to do anything except run bull-headed at a brick wall.

You call a point by point post running bull headed at a brick wall? You consider my posts nothing but bashing, yet you yourself have done nothing but spit profanities at me, all the while taking the supposed high ground.

Einstein's quote suits you very well. Me? I've already said I'm only marking time.

No, I've been there done that route. It doesn't work. So I'm trying a NEW route, namely a boycott. Which, to my knowledge, hasn't been done before in direct relation to WB/Turbine. Canceled accounts not withstanding of course, but I am referring to a boycott en masse.

I'm waiting for GW2; nothing is going to save LOTRO from Turbine.

Last I checked, this was named 'lotrocommunity.com' not 'Guildwarscommunity.com' If you don't give half a rat's patootie about LOTRO, and you think that NOTHING will ever 'save LOTRO from Turbine', why in the heck are you wasting my time with posting here?

Oh... wait, I get it. You think you are a special class of citizen, is that it? Buddies with the powers that be and all that? Maybe you think this is your personal little playground and perhaps you think you can violate the rules and ad hominem others all you like and there will be no repercussions? And who knows, maybe you are right. But I'd doubt it. I think you will be held to the same standards that others are, and sorry to say, you're coming up short mate.

But without you, maybe THIS community will continue to grow...

{120 posts in 10 days. All of them, seemingly, the same. Says it all really}

That's your opinion.

It also shows, that despite yourself, you cannot seem to be civilized and behave. You call for my posts to be less negative, yet YOU sir, exhibit the behavior for which Turbine now infracts people for linking this site for. (Violates their vulgarity rule and name calling rules) I don't think I have to go back through and quote your numerous vulgarities, I'm sure you are a smart enough lad to figure it out.

(Which by the way, was happening before I even joined here, so you can't pin that one on me, bub.)

I've been polite to every member here, simply agreeing to disagree with those I didn't see 100% eye to eye with. Never have I used vulgarity in my responses to them, nor have I ever engaged in ad hominem with them and called them names.

You, on the other hand, seem to think you can throw a temper tantrum, and still claim the high ground.

I've news for you. You lose.

Enjoy talking to yourself.

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I think 2 years ago Turbine knew the future of Lotro did not look good without FTP. For some reason they did not have the money to pay developers to produce a steady stream of good content (hence the content slow down in the years before F2P). They did not have the high subscription numbers to have money for good content, and they did not have the good content to increase the sub numbers; a vicious cycle that was resulting in a slowly dying, stale game.

The FTP change was made, and they sold the company. Management found a great solution in selling the company. This is fantastic for management - all that cash gotten in the sale. The Turbine owners won in this sale big time.

The question is, at that time how much of the company was held by original founders and how much was held by venture capital.

Has there ever been information whether the infantry in turbine had stock options, and whether they were honored?

Now, I think FTP is going great, lots of money is being made. The reason why Turbine is not improving relations with its players: they don't need to. The plan is WAI. Tons of new players and lots of money coming in the store.

I am sorry but that isn't the case in my opinion.

The only number that have ever been published, and even those we cannot verify, is that in the quarter after f2p there was a lot more money. Since then no such news, either positive or negative, has been released.

I interpret these numbers as a lot of people (who up to that time were paying monthly subscriptions) having made one-time payments to assemble their personal equivalent of a lifetime subscription. And then either stop paying altogether or spend a fraction of the previous full-VIP money.

If you look at the usage graphs about logins, limited as they might be, we see a huge spike that would correspond to such a spending spike and then the game is essentially flatlined, with just a little bump after RoI.

Unhappy long time players leave, but this does not affect the bottom line. They just don't need a happy old time player base; they don't need to produce great content above a certain level(they have enough players and new ones are coming to try the game all the time). Everything is working as intended; management is very happy. The cow is being milked.

I don't believe that.

And another reason why I don't believe that f2p has brought in that higher money contiguously after the first months pf f2p is the cash grab that Turbine started at the end of Q3 2011 (repetition of how there was a cash grab probably not needed).

Staff at Turbine are trying to do the best they can,

I mostly believe that but I question who came up with the idea to needlessly re-work so many classes in huge sweeping changes that just changed things around without making them better or worse, instead of spending the time bugfixing.

but clearly there is no big investment in more development staff (hence ROI's lack of finished instances, etc.).

If f2p had been a continued cash-cow after the first three months then they would give us more things to spend money on. It would be a scalable business. This is another reason why I believe the cash burst after f2p did not last.

From my outside observation there was a cash burst in Q3 2010 but then it trinkled down to or below the old VIP only based revenue and earnings. That is why there was such an intense grab for "fresh cash" (as opposed to taking turbine points) at the end Q3 2011.

I have no idea whether I should wish for this Q3/2011 cash grab to have worked or not. If it didn't work then our game might face closing time. But maybe a failure of it also signals that the old money of taking care of a subscription based customer base was actually a valid business model. And that you can't make a lot of cash on what is simply a lame expansion.

Or at the very least that both must be pursued, that you can't just get rid of the old subscribers, for the game to continue. I really don't know what to wish for.

I am sure some Turbine staff are frustrated just like us players.

I consider myself an ally of 90% of Turbine staff.

Message to new players (by Turbine): come on in, it's great here.

Message to old players (by Turbine): no comment (you guys just don't matter much to us now)

Message to old players (by me): Move along, this is not he game you're looking for. Its just not going to happen, sadly.

Making money is a bigger priority than making the best game possible (or keeping player satisfaction of longer term players).

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Come on guys, don't you think that the good people at T would love to see us tearing into each other like the rabid dogs we are portrayed as being? Nothing will lend us less credibility than that.

And if T didn't want customers, they wouldn't be trying so hard to get them to spend money. The problem lies in the kind of customer they want NOW vs. what they used to have. They want the push button now types to latch onto the game, and the more money prudent people can stay, as long as they spend. How else can you take their actions of late, they are designed to retain customers by controlling what they are exposed to.

For instance, if they had sent out emails to all customers, we just changed your password to something else, use the main game account page to reset it. We had a security breach, we don't know how far it went, but for your own protection, use a strong password (examples of characters given, not passwords so the more literal people don't use an emailed password <faceplam>) and have your credit cards renewed, or if changing the credit cards is too problematic, please keep a close watch for fraudulent activity. That message would have informed the whole community about what happened. Quickly, and probably with a lot less controversy. So the only reason they didn't is because they don't want people to take action that may keep them from spending money even for a few days, or have a bank start looking closely at their security measures. A bank will get a response from them, or T doesn't get to make transactions with their customers over the internet.

If the PvP types saw alot of negative posts about store advantage in the moors and how they won't be going there because of it, how effective would making the moors f2p be at drawing revenue, since less people would be going there to avoid their MT baloney?

It's all a part of a larger picture.

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Unfortunately, I fear you aren't going to love Turbine into changing their policies any time soon.

Nor are you going to accomplish anything by pretending to have the 'high ground', and being oh so 'reasonable'.

Some of us have tried that. For YEARS. Do you know what result it has had? Nil. Zero. Nadda. Nothing.

However, if you'd rather make excuses and hide behind supposed higher ideals, whilst your opponents run roughshod all over you and use your tolerance against you, you may of course do so. But, hey, that's just my opinion. You have yours.

I will not kowtow to them, I will not speak kindly of those who are unkind, and I shall not sit there whilst Rome is burning and say that it's only a small campfire, when the entire city is ablaze. Pioneering the kind of change that is required to save LOTRO as a viable game will likely never come through this website/forum.

With all due respect, I don't think it has the stones.

You'd rather be cuddly and make nice than take the hard line such a stance requires, and actually DO something about it, such as boycott the parent company that is ultimately responsible for this farce.

But that is not the fault of this forum. I simply mistook it for something it was not. That was entirely MY mistake, and I claim 100% responsibility for that.

So to that end, I'll probably step away from this forum. Much to your rejoicing I am sure, as I seem to be the composer of negativity.

Life is not all fluffy bunnies and fuzzy peaches. Sometimes you DO have to push back.

I'm sorry if you find that negative.

Edit: (Removed Magna Carta comment.Apologies if it got anyone's knickers in a wad.)

So, cheerio Raedwulf. May your aeries receive you at your journey's end.

Edit:

I wish you luck with Turbine. Years of effort has taught me the following lesson that perhaps you still need to learn:

You are really out of control. You need to take some time away from any forum related to Turbine.

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I will not kowtow to them, I will not speak kindly of those who are unkind, and I shall not sit there whilst Rome is burning and say that it's only a small campfire, when the entire city is ablaze. Pioneering the kind of change that is required to save LOTRO as a viable game will likely never come through this website/forum.

With all due respect, I don't think it has the stones.

You'd rather be cuddly and make nice than take the hard line such a stance requires, and actually DO something about it, such as boycott the parent company that is ultimately responsible for this farce.

But that is not the fault of this forum. I simply mistook it for something it was not. That was entirely MY mistake, and I claim 100% responsibility for that.

So to that end, I'll probably step away from this forum. Much to your rejoicing I am sure, as I seem to be the composer of negativity.

Life is not all fluffy bunnies and fuzzy peaches. Sometimes you DO have to push back.

This will not make me very popular but I completely agree with this.

The biggest problem with Lotro in a sense is that the community by and large are full a decent people.

The only reason why Eve has taken such a dramatic turn in the last few months (we are heading towards the best expansion in its 8 year history) is that to put it bluntly most of players have the ability to be real **** (including me)

After months forum posts (1 forum post literally hit a 1000+ pages) the protests, (locking down 3 of the main trading hubs for 3 days straight) the negative on-line media articles, the only thing that got through to Devs and CEO was that we as a player base were fully prefer to cancel our subs and walk away.

Even then it took 3 months and approx 5000 accounts being cancelled before they stopped, listened and took action.

The lotro community, as good as it, does not have what it takes. It never has and never will simply because it is made up of really decent people, hence why I loved playing lotro.

That is why Turbine will continue to act with total disregard towards its player base because they know (based on history) that they will not receive any meaningful backlash

Lotro's greatest strength (its community) is also its greatest weakness.

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This will not make me very popular but I completely agree with this.

The biggest problem with Lotro in a sense is that the community by and large are full a decent people.

The only reason why Eve has taken such a dramatic turn in the last few months (we are heading towards the best expansion in its 8 year history) is that to put it bluntly most of players have the ability to be real **** (including me)

After months forum posts (1 forum post literally hit a 1000+ pages) the protests, (locking down 3 of the main trading hubs for 3 days straight) the negative on-line media articles, the only thing that got through to Devs and CEO was that we as a player base were fully prefer to cancel our subs and walk away.

Even then it took 3 months and approx 5000 accounts being cancelled before they stopped, listened and took action.

The lotro community, as good as it, does not have what it takes. It never has and never will simply because it is made up of really decent people, hence why I loved playing lotro.

That is why Turbine will continue to act with total disregard towards its player base because they know (based on history) that they will not receive any meaningful backlash

Lotro's greatest strength (its community) is also its greatest weakness.

Y'know, I never really thought of it that way before, but I suspect (sadly) that you are correct. LOTRO players are too damn nice. They will just keep on playing for the most part, while of course some will leave for SWTOR, I suspect the vast majority of them will keep their LOTRO accounts available and come back when they get bored with SWTOR.

So the exodus it would take to get Turbine's full attention to the issues regarding customer services simply won't happen.

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The biggest problem with Lotro in a sense is that the community by and large are full a decent people.

The only reason why Eve has taken such a dramatic turn in the last few months (we are heading towards the best expansion in its 8 year history) is that to put it bluntly most of players have the ability to be real **** (including me)

After months forum posts (1 forum post literally hit a 1000+ pages) the protests, (locking down 3 of the main trading hubs for 3 days straight) the negative on-line media articles, the only thing that got through to Devs and CEO was that we as a player base were fully prefer to cancel our subs and walk away.

Even then it took 3 months and approx 5000 accounts being cancelled before they stopped, listened and took action.

The lotro community, as good as it, does not have what it takes. It never has and never will simply because it is made up of really decent people, hence why I loved playing lotro.

That is why Turbine will continue to act with total disregard towards its player base because they know (based on history) that they will not receive any meaningful backlash

Lotro's greatest strength (its community) is also its greatest weakness.

I don't share that pessimism.

If you look at the history of company versus customer base conflicts you will see that their outcome is totally random. I am not aware of anyone who ever claimed to make reliable predictions who will win, whether the company gives in to the old customers, if yes whether it works (can the damage be undone), if not will their plan to get new customers work out. It is completely unpredictable.

Our enemy isn't one personality. It is a large organization made up of different individuals all divided into various factions and temporary alliances as company policy is formed and decisions are made. Heck we don't even know how much of their own fate is decided in the old Turbine headquarters and how much active policymaking for the small things has been moved to WB.

The point is: I can assure you that before the Eve protests suddenly won there was no way to predict that. The community had the same uncertainty, and individuals in the player base all formed opinions about the best course of action and what the best outcome to hope for was based on their personalities, not facts. Facts are not available outside the companies. That one thing is where the companies can be seen as unified actors - they (leaks aside) communicate to the outside in a unified manner.

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The point is: I can assure you that before the Eve protests suddenly won there was no way to predict that. The community had the same uncertainty, and individuals in the player base all formed opinions about the best course of action and what the best outcome to hope for was based on their personalities, not facts. Facts are not available outside the companies. That one thing is where the companies can be seen as unified actors - they (leaks aside) communicate to the outside in a unified manner.

This is where you have missed the point.

The protests, the thread-noughts, the likes of massively tearing CCP apart.. none of this worked.

We got no reaction from the devs, the CEO, nothing. Everything we did and say at that point had no effect what so ever.

It was when people said enough is enough and if you want listen then we will cancel are subs and again NOTHING happened.

That is was when people knew it was either time to either shut up and put up or cancel their subs, so over 5000 people cancelled their subs.

The Lotro community simply will not do this. Other then posting on the forum what as a community has been done to show Turbine/WB that enough is enough?

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The lotro community, as good as it, does not have what it takes. It never has and never will simply because it is made up of really decent people, hence why I loved playing lotro.

That is why Turbine will continue to act with total disregard towards its player base because they know (based on history) that they will not receive any meaningful backlash

Lotro's greatest strength (its community) is also its greatest weakness.

I can totally believe this and I do think its the heart of the problem. There's a large part of the community that's here because of their love of all things Tolkien, myself included.

I spent last weekend in a galaxy far, far away and I'm saddened now. I'm sad because of all the friends in LOTRO that I will eventually lose touch with. I'm sad because a game I simply fell in love with is no more, its changed and I fear it will never be the same again. I'm sad because I doubt any game will have the community that LOTRO has. I think after this weekend that it really will be the end, I very much doubt that the Fellowship will see Gondor.

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I agree wholeheartedly that the LOTRO community does not have what it takes to do what the EVE players did.

They are FAR too tolerant. It’s always “Wait until the next update”, or “It will get better with the next expansion.” Ad infinitum.

The bottom line is that they just can’t let go.

Possibly because of all the great times and memories they have, possibly because of all the really great people they’ve met.

And unless/until Turbine changes their customer service to actually service their customers, I will never play nor purchase anything from Turbine or WB ever again. Period. Even if it’s a gift. I’ll take it back to the store, and exchange it for something else.

I’ll also never play LOTRO again. Period.

This is a personal decision. I don’t expect the rest of you to follow suit. Do or not do as your own conscience dictates.

I certainly won’t convince anyone here with words to do or not do anything. If they’re ready to move on, they will. If they won’t, then nothing I say would matter anyway, as we all make excuses to justify our actions, or lack thereof.

I’ve seen it on the main LOTRO community for years now.

They’ll just take it, and take it, and take it.

Nothing I’ve seen indicates the contrary.

The Titanic is sinking, and all the band can do is keep on playing, and denying that the inevitable is happening.

It doesn’t HAVE to sink. But it will continue to sink because people won’t take the necessary action to save it.

So, when it sinks, ultimately, I’ll lay the blame squarely where it belongs, upon the shoulders of you, the players. When it does finally sink, you can look in the mirrors and congratulate yourselves on a job well done due to complacency, lethargy, and just being too darn ‘nice’ for your own darn good. Maybe that’s not what you want to hear. But I don’t think anyone can honestly say it’s an inaccurate picture of where the blame truly and logically belongs.

Sure, Turbine and WB are also responsible, but you, the players keep PAYING their salaries. And/or supporting their product. So, in the end, that is where the buck must stop. With the customer .If a product doesn’t meet your satisfaction, and you keep supporting it, you have no one to blame but yourself for it’s lack of change.

And the company has no reason to change it, as you have proven to them time, and time, and time again, that you are paper tigers.

*RAWR!* We need this to change. And if you don’t do it, we’ll say *RAWR!* again!

They’ve called your bluff, friends. They are sitting back counting their ‘record profits’, and thumbing their noses at you the whole time, as they KNOW, beyond any shadow of doubt that the fluffy bunny LOTRO community hasn’t got what it takes to back it up. And they know this, because we’ve all proven it to them time and again.

Nothing will ever change with that company until YOU, the player, decides that it is well past time for it to end.

For me, however, it ends now. Farewell.

Whatever roads you all travel, may they be kind upon your feet.

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You know, Turbine has often been quick to blame the customer first. Now, it appears you are as well. Are you certain you aren't pro-Turbine?

Not sure who that remark is aimed that but I will bite :)

Am I blaming the customer.. i.e the players, well to a certain degree yes.

Turbine will not change their utter contempt towards the players, will not stop their what I can only call totally disregard to lore, their money grabbing store which constantly screams buy me buy buy me buy me, there tedious grinds until the players.. i.e you say enough is enough and stop paying and playing.

For years I have seen forum post after posts complaining about a various many things, many of which were justified but they changed nothing and will continue to change nothing.

Even now after the way they are treating their customers on the forums and people still continue to pay them money.

Why should Turbine/WB listen to anything what the player base say when they will just continue giving them money.

So yes, to a certain extent the situation that people find themselves in now in regards to Lotro and Turbines behaviour if their own fault.

If you let somebody walk all over you they will continued to do so until you stand up and stop them.

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My last post was mainly in response to Alcarinque. It was right below his, but nevertheless I regret that it wasn't clear.

In my particular case, as a founder and lifer, Turbine has no hold over me at all. Most of my time is spent in SoA/MoM content (free), I only spend those TP that Turbine keeps giving me as a VIP (free), I don't log into their "community site" (good riddance), and I haven't paid them a penny since MoM (insert image of a black hole). If anything, Turbine is paying me to play their game. Given Turbine's current customer service culture, I'm not going to shed a tear for any revenue they lose from me.

For those who have been paying Turbine to play, either via a subscription or via the purchase of Turbine points, I do feel badly for them, in the grievances that they do have, which are varied, based on a number of negative experiences. Yet, many of these people still like playing the game, in spite of Turbine. I personally feel that if a customer feels strongly enough about it, he/she should try to get through to Turbine and let them know where they've failed, through whatever means is more effective for them. As a last resort, if the situation becomes untenable, a customer should feel free to leave and find greener pastures.

However, for players to bite and nip at each other about the choices that are made is counter-productive and throws blame at the wrong side of the issue. Ultimately, Turbine is the problem, a problem that many people are reacting to in different ways. Until you've spent some time in their shoes, their decisions shouldn't be readily dismissed.

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When Fernando Paiz said in his PAX speech that people on the forum will complain and then still not leave he was correct, at least as far as his game is concerned.

What we differ about is

  • why are they not leaving? Is it because the game is so awesome? Or because they have huge investment, like Tolkien and don't want to move to a new game with equally jerky politics.
  • and - is people not leaving in masses enough to keep the game afloat? Seems like a good small exodus to me.

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Who cares what the real reason is why Paitz thought and thinks that many would/will complain but not leave?

What still stand is that he was right in what he said and that is all there is to it for Turbine.

We don't know anything about the financial status of LOTRO. The last news was the expected burst in the quarter after you could buy your personalized lifetime sub and since then nothing.

While we can look at the login numbers that doesn't tell us anything about spending.

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Yeah, they may be able to point to points being spent, BUT, how many are bought points and how many are earned points, or stipend points? It's like when FOX claimed they had millions of subscribers, and then the judge pointedly asked if FOX was part of a basic cable package, and did FOX consider them subscribers, to which they muttered yes to. It's all in how you spin the numbers.

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Again, it does not matter what Paitz thought when he made his speech.

If it was because LOTRO is so awesome.

If it was because of RL friends players ain't leave.

If it is because the community is so awesome they ain't leave.

If it is because players have time and money investements so they ain't leave.

If is is because the players are addicts so they ain't leave.

Or a mix of all the above and everything else some can come up with.

What matters is that he was right in what he said that many players DO complain but ain't leave.

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What matters is that he was right in what he said that many players DO complain but ain't leave.

Question is do they spend money? How many VIPs left? How many buy points for consumables? How many are Premium and have assembled their personal lifetime subscription long ago?

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