Jump to content
LOTROCommunity

Turning over a new leaf.


Alcarinque
 Share

Recommended Posts

Question is do they spend money? How many VIPs left? How many buy points for consumables? How many are Premium and have assembled their personal lifetime subscription long ago?

Exactly. F2P and lifer status skews the whole concept of "leaving" for LotRO. First people here need to remember that "leaving" a game is different for the player and the game company.

From a business perspective, leaving means you no longer spend money on the product, not that you no longer use it. The (ought to) only care about the revenue you generate. Whether you play or not is irrelevant, whether you PAY or not matters. Granted there are some ancilliary benefits like fuller servers, etc that are spouted, but let's be honest here: Turbine doesn't want/need the pure F2Pers even if they "fill up" the servers, they want people to spend money.

OTOH, from our (the individual customer's) perspective, leaving means we no longer actually play. We're doing something else. In a sub model that means we're no longer paying to play and therefore CAN'T play. The twist that F2P premium and/or lifer status means is that we can always choose to go waste some time logging in and talking to friends, play a little, or whatever, because we CAN still play whenever we want. Lack of a sub doesn't mean we're kept off the servers. And given that, why wouldn't we pop in and see what they've done, talked to people or whatever?

If you had an unlimited pre-paid gift card for a restaurant that allowed you to eat there whenever you want but you hated the wait staff, would that stop you from using it so long as the food still tastes good?

Now, as to the whole "LotRO players are too nice to do what EVE did" meme. It's a load of crap.

First, the two are now completely different situations. Cancelling a sub is not the same here now as it was in EVE. Cancelled EVE sub = complete loss of revenue from that player. Cancelled LOTRO sub = person is now premium and can still play/buy points. Do you honestly think that Turbine hasn't already lost at least 5K subs from people INTENTIONALLY going that route? How would Turbine know the difference between a protest and the effect of lots of people transfering their sub money to SWTOR and playing LOTRO for free?

Second, I'd actually argue it's not that LOTRO players are too nice, it's that they're not a bunch of self-important spoiled brats who can't figure out the relative importance of a GAME in life. I assure you, there's quite a few of us whole are complete assholes. However, we keep a game in perspective. It's entertainment, if and when it ceases being entertaining then we drop it; that's a point that grown-ups get. No one's paying you to do it, your life doesn't depend on it, it's not going to change the world and make it a better place, so why in the world would a relatively mature bunch of players do anything other than make personally relevant decisions about their playing time?

Yet the whole "oh, Turbine is oppressing me" shtick keeps being thrown around. Yes, their CS sucks, yes their forum moderation is heavy handed, counter-productive and IMO obviously biased, yes their marketing is hands down the worst in the modern gaming industry, but still if that has the degree of significance in someone's life that they get overly emotional and angry to the point of essentially rage stalking other game forums, then they need to get some perspective. Turbine didn't crash the economy, Turbine didn't drive people out of their homes, Turbine hasn't trashed the environment. They just boned a GAME whose monthly sub cost I earn in 20 minutes of work, a point I always remember to keep in perspective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly. F2P and lifer status skews the whole concept of "leaving" for LotRO. First people here need to remember that "leaving" a game is different for the player and the game company.

From a business perspective, leaving means you no longer spend money on the product, not that you no longer use it. The (ought to) only care about the revenue you generate. Whether you play or not is irrelevant, whether you PAY or not matters. Granted there are some ancilliary benefits like fuller servers, etc that are spouted, but let's be honest here: Turbine doesn't want/need the pure F2Pers even if they "fill up" the servers, they want people to spend money.

OTOH, from our (the individual customer's) perspective, leaving means we no longer actually play. We're doing something else. In a sub model that means we're no longer paying to play and therefore CAN'T play. The twist that F2P premium and/or lifer status means is that we can always choose to go waste some time logging in and talking to friends, play a little, or whatever, because we CAN still play whenever we want. Lack of a sub doesn't mean we're kept off the servers. And given that, why wouldn't we pop in and see what they've done, talked to people or whatever?

If you had an unlimited pre-paid gift card for a restaurant that allowed you to eat there whenever you want but you hated the wait staff, would that stop you from using it so long as the food still tastes good?

Now, as to the whole "LotRO players are too nice to do what EVE did" meme. It's a load of crap.

First, the two are now completely different situations. Cancelling a sub is not the same here now as it was in EVE. Cancelled EVE sub = complete loss of revenue from that player. Cancelled LOTRO sub = person is now premium and can still play/buy points. Do you honestly think that Turbine hasn't already lost at least 5K subs from people INTENTIONALLY going that route? How would Turbine know the difference between a protest and the effect of lots of people transfering their sub money to SWTOR and playing LOTRO for free?

Second, I'd actually argue it's not that LOTRO players are too nice, it's that they're not a bunch of self-important spoiled brats who can't figure out the relative importance of a GAME in life. I assure you, there's quite a few of us whole are complete assholes. However, we keep a game in perspective. It's entertainment, if and when it ceases being entertaining then we drop it; that's a point that grown-ups get. No one's paying you to do it, your life doesn't depend on it, it's not going to change the world and make it a better place, so why in the world would a relatively mature bunch of players do anything other than make personally relevant decisions about their playing time?

Yet the whole "oh, Turbine is oppressing me" shtick keeps being thrown around. Yes, their CS sucks, yes their forum moderation is heavy handed, counter-productive and IMO obviously biased, yes their marketing is hands down the worst in the modern gaming industry, but still if that has the degree of significance in someone's life that they get overly emotional and angry to the point of essentially rage stalking other game forums, then they need to get some perspective. Turbine didn't crash the economy, Turbine didn't drive people out of their homes, Turbine hasn't trashed the environment. They just boned a GAME whose monthly sub cost I earn in 20 minutes of work, a point I always remember to keep in perspective.

Was going to make an informative reply, correct you on a couple of points were you are wrong / misinformed but the second I read the whole "its just a game get a life" thing, realised it would be a waste of time

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not unreasonable to ask why people don't just leave the freaggin' game if they don't like it.

Here is my answer:

  • I made investments into this game in time, personal energy and now with f2p upfront money (for future gameplay). Much of that investment was made while we were actively lied to about plans that were already in motion, other investments were made due to Turbine's lousy documentation not laying out the options.
  • At least partially Turbine practices false advertising (deliberately or not). This is against consumer laws and you have a right to fight back with methods other than just walk away.
  • In this particular case we know that other games are in fact better when it comes to not strongarming and deceiving paying customers. But in general, the presence of competition does not validate misbehavior. Let's say for example all the cellphone carriers would agree to cheat on the monthly bill in the same manner. You have a right to work with your own carrier on it. The presence of competitors that you could go to doesn't invalidate this, and in this case wouldn't solve the problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I bought a car with a loan, and it didn't work, shouldn't I be able to stop paying for it until it DOES work? It makes sense, but that's not the way the world works is it. If you paid cash, they really can ignore you then, except for certain guarantees. However, MMOs are a different animal. You can stop paying at any time, unless you paid for a lifetime.

If you bought a lifetime account, there is no reason for them to even deal with you really, it's not a revenue positive move to keep you happy unless your account shows TP purchases. If you still paid a sub, then they might try to massage you to get you to keep paying it, and try harder if you too spent money on TP. And if you have a f2p account, well they got hundreds, thousands of reasons ($) to make you happy. And I know they have the tools to look that information up instantly.

That's where the focus is, and that's why we get the hind end of CS. It's not that the bitching isn't valid, it's because they have no real reason to listen to it, and every reason to shut it down, because it might effect the f2p people they really want to market. I don't find it coincidental that when f2p came into being, the forums changed at the same time.

Of course people with f2p accounts don't have issues with being nickel and dimed, that's what they WANTED. Kind of hard on the rest of us though.

EDIT wanted to point this out, just for giggles. Thread was closed after I responded to it over a week ago, 3 posts in. Then a mod went in and edited the post I responded to about 5 hours later. Just saw that today. And his edit was more flippant than the post I responded to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a mp3 file of it, in some web page that plays it. Nobody made a transcript. It is not clear whether you would be allowed to do it if you wanted to.

I can't offhand locate the link. Will try later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes indeedy, thanks.

Well, that took some time, had to bounce back and forth between this and other family duties (got a sick son right now). I don't know what happened between Pax East and now, but I think we are living an episode of Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Things he's said are in total contradiction to what is being done now in the game. In particular, he claimed at the time they haven't changed their design philosophy or made the game prohibitively hard (true then, not true at all now), and yet now we have grinds being increased, mobs that stun constantly and a scroll in the store prevents that (pvmp only now, but you wait), bet it shows up in the U5.

Claims there are no ethical considerations.

Kept a sub option just to mitigate risk, and now that they've seen how profitable it is, we are getting less and less for it. That's no accident.

Start with small things, and increase, like no advantage, then some, then full bore like right now.

Control the forums so the negative base doesn't have much of a voice, people post saying they feel nickel and dimed, and those posts are purged.

Monetize a beta? G F Y S. Read between the lines there FP.

Heard the people complain but don't leave. Not true of this game.

Kisses huge EA butt.

We are being mentally conditioned.

References Asian MMOs, guess we know where it's headed for sure now.

Claims you have to get players to trust the service, then they gut the CS....

Claims customers aren't being exploited.

That's pretty much what I got from that, along with a few choice expletives that are in notepad currently. I can no longer claim to be surprised anymore about what happens, it's right there in the speech. Hook 'em, reel 'em in, and fillet 'em.

<oh yeah, downloaded for safe keeping, can't have denials popping up>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I quoted FP in a post there about 5 minutes ago. If the dude doesn't want people to be able to do that, I suggest he should stop speaking publicly. Probably going to get bounced from the forum, but I've had it with the BS and stupid logic defenders use. All these f2p accounts that wandered in when it launched defending this harvesting of people who have been paying for years. And the total lies. I don't care anymore. It's just not fun anymore when you have to grind to avoid using the store. I hope they appreciate the money they got from me for ROI and the lifetime fees and subs prior to that, because I'm never giving that greasy company another dime. As far as I am concerned, Fernando Paiz is the worst thing that could have happened to LOTRO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I would love to see Turbine turn around and change things, it's not going to happen. And it has nothing to do with our 'too nice' community either, but with Turbine itself. Based on the information we have, going F2P with Lotro was a big and risky decision, essentially turning the companies nr 1 profitable, if somewhat stagnant, game upside down. And by now anyone near the helm at Turbine has been involved in this decision, either directly or indirectly (WB bought them because of the microtransactions). That means it can't possibly fail... they can't go to the higher-ups and say "Hey, I know we spend a year and x amount of cash on that F2P conversion, but we're gonna turn it back because we're losing too many customers over it" and expect to keep their job. The only way to get them to realize that is if the numbers get so bad that the higher-ups themselves come asking "Why are we losing money here?" and shut the place down / put it on mimimal life-support because they're not going to spend another big investment 'reviving' the game.

Personally I think, but I'm just guessing here, that they indeed had a big cash-inflow from the f2p launch and after that are doing roughly the same as they've been doing before (we've had about the same amount of updates, if you ignore the Mirkwood-year they spend on F2P). However they've been running around with projections expecting 300% revenue increases based on the DDO success, so they've been cutting costs, trying to stop the negative rep on the forum etc. to keep their profits up. And in the 3rd quarter with ROI they had to show they've been doing great in the first F2P year, hence the cash-grab (and it would be compared against the Enedwaith-F2P launch from last year Q3, instead of the stalled Mirkwood period). Now they can relax a bit, since they'll simply blame SW:TOR, Skyrim and whatever other big titles are releasing to explain lower-than-expected numbers.

The only change I think we can achieve is to get them to realize the value of VIP again... They've always sold it as 'hybrid, AAA' and not a simple F2P model, so if enough VIPs quit / go premium that it shows up on their balance sheets, they might be inclined to up the value of VIP and think about customer retention a bit more to keep the difference between the 'Turbine Quality-Hybrid' and 'Random Cheap Korean F2P'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I keep hearing about the infamous paiz speech, anyone have a link or transcript?

Eve Online sounds like a game that now respects its customers, anyone play it and is it any good?

Is Eve any good, well that entirely depends on what kind of MMO you are looking for and whether you like PvP.

What you have to remember with Eve is that you can be engaged in PvP anywhere whether you want it or not.

Also it is a game which is does not work very well if you are not in a corp with other players.

Personally I love Eve. I love have a Player Driven Market, I love the Manufacturing / Industrial aspect, I love its complexity and its sheer size, I love the fact that anything goes whether it be huge Market scams, Ganks, Piracy, Corp Theft etc etc.

I love the real time skill training as well.

Eve is very much like Marmite, you either love it or hate it.

The only thing I would suggest is that if you really want to give Eve a go, PM me and I will send you a buddy link that will give you a 21 day free trial.

It is unlike any MMO on the market so it really is a game that you have to try to see if you like it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Contain yourself sir.

Pompous & condescending.

You call a point by point post running bull headed at a brick wall? You consider my posts nothing but bashing, yet you yourself have done nothing but spit profanities at me, all the while taking the supposed high ground.

Yes, I do. Point by point rebuttals usually indicate only that you're determined to be right no matter what, and aren't really listening to what is being said to you. And to the latter... Bollocks. Oh, sorry, another profanity. I did actually apologise to you at one point. Did you notice? Your reply doesn't suggest that you did. Moral high ground? I've got mud on my boots & I can see it. Have you looked down lately? You've been far more offensive toward me than I have to you.

Last I checked, this was named 'lotrocommunity.com' not 'Guildwarscommunity.com' If you don't give half a rat's patootie about LOTRO, and you think that NOTHING will ever 'save LOTRO from Turbine', why in the heck are you wasting my time with posting here?

Oh... wait, I get it. You think you are a special class of citizen, is that it? Buddies with the powers that be and all that? Maybe you think this is your personal little playground and perhaps you think you can violate the rules and ad hominem others all you like and there will be no repercussions? And who knows, maybe you are right. But I'd doubt it. I think you will be held to the same standards that others are, and sorry to say, you're coming up short mate.

1) Because I'm part of the community which, a few individuals aside, is actually a nice community.

2) Lol. Oh, how little you know! I've already been censored bu MueR & I'm still waiting for an explanation. Yes, we're friends; I'm his kin leader, I now lead the raid alliance that he picked up from its founder. If you think that gives me special status, that only shows you nothing about me, and less about him. Oh, and you're trying, yet again, to be extremely offensive. Winning no arguments; not even scoring any points. Do you know who Pyrrhus was?

It also shows, that despite yourself, you cannot seem to be civilized and behave. You call for my posts to be less negative, yet YOU sir, exhibit the behavior for which Turbine now infracts people for linking this site for. (Violates their vulgarity rule and name calling rules) I don't think I have to go back through and quote your numerous vulgarities, I'm sure you are a smart enough lad to figure it out.

Sarcasm, offense, ad hominem. All the things I am supposed to be guiltier of than you. You've a great aim, seemingly, providing your foot is the target.

I've news for you. You lose.

Enjoy talking to yourself.

"Winning" matters that much to you, does it? I shall think of you as Fox from now on. :) That's assuming you bother coming back; I hope not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can add that Turbine has no right to attempt to police this board, or punish users OF this board on their own; that is total facism. Arrogance would be the polite way to describe that.

As far as I know, Turbine CAN'T police this board. They can have someone troll and spam, but those can be dealt with. Short of starting a lawsuit they can't censor this board.

If indeed people are/will be reprimended (bans, warnings) for something said here, they would have to infallably prove that this poster uses that account. Again, this seems far fetched (if alarming!)

A big deal would have to change for Turbine to get the trust of some (most?) people on this forum. I would settle for a few apologies, few heads rolled down the hill (Sap sacked e.g.) and change of policies regarding the Store and how it's convenient/advantageous. Frankly, I don't expect this to happen. Maybe some mild changes towards actually listening to what paying customers say. That or just ending the product.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Folks, I have never seen Turbine take an action against people on their board simply based on what that person did on this board. Are we sure that has been the case?

They do not tolerate links to this site. That's not polite but it is pretty normal even for more relaxed vendors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I simply read a post from a bluey that essentially said that use of this board was practically the same as using their board, and a violation of their rules here could be treated similarly. A pretty blatant threat. I could try to track that down, but it might not even exist, or the thread could be in limbo. I referenced it in another post of mine, I'll try to track that down.

This is the posting here.

My reasoning is thus: If linking to this site is the same as breaking forum rules there, using this site can also be considered the same as breaking rules on their own site. If linking the site is bad, using it has to be bad too, from their point of view. Whether they act on it or not is one thing, but the unwritten message there is still the same. And do you really think they might not stoop to that? Hard to know really, but a possibility nonetheless.

I'm of the opinion though that some of these employees might simply be plugging their noses and swallowing when they get told how to do their jobs, since they want to keep them. Difficult position to be in really. Scylla and Charybdis. Though that usually only applies to the grunts at the bottom of the ladder. I still have hopes that certain ones can make attempts from within the fortress to initiate positive change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...