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PJ.

When did Codies know about this?

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Is it from the start way back in 2007, even if it wasn't set it stone, they knew this day would come? Or would it been a total shock?

OT, why have Codies not taken down the Jumpgate forum as it seems to be vapourware?

Will Codies be on the look out for another MMO to either produce themselves or under licence? I hear thank God that there are no job losses but I wonder what people like Zzeno will do as his job is very LotRO specific.

Lots of questions, Sorry

PJ.

PS Thanks for setting up this place :)

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I think your best bet would be to personally infiltrate CM and report back the findings to us.

Most community representatives are too bound on feet and... Fingers, to be able to divulge company "secrets" like these. :)

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Well it would appear Codies found they wont be hosting Lotro around the time of the marathon contract discussions that delayed the launch of F2P. Thus Faya was stopped in her tracks of reorganising the forums. I presume they knew the day might come but it didnt look like Turbine had the financial muscle to host its own servers before WB came along so I presume Codies believed they had the European market for themselves for the shelf life of the game.

OT: Well Duke Nukem was considered vapourware and look what we got this year, its still up there for a reason is my guess.

Codies, well, have a good track record for hosting Lotro and I presume they still offer server hosting for other presumably any kind of commercial companies. I'd say watch this space in regards to CM they would have been working furiously in the background to secure another MMO if its a large part of their income.Zeno like probably most of the staff will be on contracts and will be reassigned to other projects for the life of his contract and after that its up to the company and the individual, Zeno is a producer which is like a high end manager making sure everything is on time and budget so I am sure he will be assimilated into other areas of Codies with ease.

N.B This is all my personal opinion, it is not fact, it is a series of assumptions and logic.

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it didnt look like Turbine had the financial muscle to host its own servers before WB came along so I presume Codies believed they had the European market for themselves for the shelf life of the game.

It most probably had nothing to do with costs of the servers, once you have your own server center like Turbine already has and where we will all be moving in June, it's not that big of an issue.

The problem was most probably legal: to distribute a game in Europe, one has to take into consideration that law differs in many countries.

Codies were based in Europe and they had experience already with dealing with such issues, it was simply easier to license them.

Now when game if F2P and Turbine doesn't have to deal with any distribution, it's more profitable for them to claim everyone back.

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Yep very true Sil, but Turbine have gotten around the legal stuff now by hosting in the US so I'm kind of still wondering what was the problem in the first place of hosting all the servers in the US.

I'm sure they could have gotten around the distribution with simply going to the large retailers and simply cutting out the middleman and saving money.

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Rob they probably waited to see if it was a success. If it wasn't Codies look bad, if a success, thanks we will take it from here.

PJ

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Rob they probably waited to see if it was a success. If it wasn't Codies look bad, if a success, thanks we will take it from here.

PJ

That could well be the case PJ but it would have been easy to estimate the total number of potential customers from Lotr book sales over the last decade and the number of people who people who watched the films in the cinema/ DVD sales to gauge the market. But the game wouldnt have gotten off the ground if it hadnt passed the feasibilty test. I'd still wager on the side of limited cash to go all out and host it themselves.

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That could well be the case PJ but it would have been easy to estimate the total number of potential customers from Lotr book sales over the last decade and the number of people who people who watched the films in the cinema/ DVD sales to gauge the market. But the game wouldnt have gotten off the ground if it hadnt passed the feasibilty test. I'd still wager on the side of limited cash to go all out and host it themselves.

I also think it was a matter of money. But I think Codemasters had the rights to keep lotro for europe for longer than this, and when Turbine got Warner's money, they made them an offer they couldn't reffuse.

You can also change "offer" for "threat".

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As to when did Codies know about this...

We know that Turbine has stated in the past that their intention in the future (that future being now) is to reclaim all their licenses and control global operations by themselves.

I also recall speculating back when DDO switched back to Turbine after their 4-year contract was up, that Codies may also be running LotRO on an equally long contract and if so, we'd see something after the 4th anniversary. It appears it is indeed so, and Turbine are still planning on going through with becoming a global operator of their IP.

Turbine's likely also told them well in advance about their plans concerning LotRO, especially after they re-acquired DDO

when Turbine got Warner's money, they made them an offer they couldn't reffuse.

I don't think any offer was necessary. Contract was up, Turbine did not renew since they want direct control. Four years back Turbine was financially in different position, so outsourcing EU operations to a local company should have made great sense, and it has been pretty standard operation in many MMOs.

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As to when did Codies know about this...

We know that Turbine has stated in the past that their intention in the future (that future being now) is to reclaim all their licenses and control global operations by themselves.

I also recall speculating back when DDO switched back to Turbine after their 4-year contract was up, that Codies may also be running LotRO on an equally long contract and if so, we'd see something after the 4th anniversary. It appears it is indeed so, and Turbine are still planning on going through with becoming a global operator of their IP.

Turbine's likely also told them well in advance about their plans concerning LotRO, especially after they re-acquired DDO.

I think I once read (altough now I don't remember where) Faya saying they had lotro licence until 2017.

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We can assume they have at least known about it since the decision to stop multi-month subs as I assume that this is the only reason for doing that. You don't want someone with 3 months left on there sub when it all moves to the US, it just complicates things.

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I think I once read (altough now I don't remember where) Faya saying they had lotro licence until 2017.

No Turbine have the rights to Lotr and the appendix's til 2017, after that the game may cease to exist or be renamed as they no longer have the right to use the name. But considering the shrinking player base on Evernight, Lotro wont last till 2017 imo.

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Perhaps the reason for the F2P delay was Codemasters holding out for money money to relinquish control, or maybe Turbine wanted to take control back before now but were not yet in a place to do so and had to negotiate a deal for CM to continue for a few extra months

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I think their four year contract just ran out and Turbine said they wanted it back. If they still had a contract, I'm sure they got a nice sum of money for it, otherwise it might just be tough luck.

In the end, whatever problems I had with CM, I'm a bit sad to see them go.

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I'm preety sure Codies knew, they will have to give it back to Turbine since at least F2P delay.

Maybe theu did not want to give up so easily thats why the F2P delay?

I only hope Turbine will not turn this game into "grind or pay" game, but after all it is Turbine, a company known for many screw ups so everything can be expected...

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Yeah, they knew this day would come. They probably didn't know it would only be after 4 years but they knew it was coming.

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I think they may have had an idea since F2P. The issue may have been something like -

Codies: if we are going to put all this time and money into changing our billing systems to intergrate your shop then the least you can do is extend our contract - let's talk about that before we do the work on this F2P thing.

Turbine: no we won't do that right now. We will talk about contracts when the time is up. F2P first.

Codies: Hmmmm .....

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Humm!

As someone who has gone through 2 take-overs, 4 rebrandings & several sell-offs.

I can assure you that the last to know under UK law are the customers.

UK Business law basically is designed to protect investors, not customers.

There are stringent rules on who can be told and when during the process, depending on what is actually happening the only common factor is the customer is the last to know or for a couple of cases don't need to be informed at all!

So yes the negotiations have been going on I expect for months and during most of it CM would have had to tell its staff say nothing on pain of an official fine & or dismissal!

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I feel angry and annoyed on Codemasters behalf. If it is true, and it makes sense, the reason the delay for F2P was because Codemasters wanted a longer contract as they were changing their systems for F2P I think Turbine, whilst not breaking the law should have given them another 4 years because of the changes they had to make. I guess the fact that they were never called Codemaster Points instead of Turbine Points was a hint.

I know I am being very idealistic but I am a great believer in fair play and this reeks of very unfair play.

PJ.

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Let's at least conclude that our UK overlords weren't as bad - though we have all had some points in time where our faith in them was tested.

They brought us RP servers, GM support of events in the past, and a forum with lenient moderation.

*bows for Satine & Co.*

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I feel angry and annoyed on Codemasters behalf. If it is true, and it makes sense, the reason the delay for F2P was because Codemasters wanted a longer contract as they were changing their systems for F2P I think Turbine, whilst not breaking the law should have given them another 4 years because of the changes they had to make. I guess the fact that they were never called Codemaster Points instead of Turbine Points was a hint.

I know I am being very idealistic but I am a great believer in fair play and this reeks of very unfair play.

PJ.

Unfortunately no such thing as fair play in business, its cut throat and survival of the fittest. As we have seen from many a years of dealing with Turbine its a very unfair organisation, heck its why we are on this forum in the first place.

On CM's behave I think you should be angry because they had a very close partnership with Turbine in dealing with Lotro and DDO, CM is a one of the largest publishers in the second biggest market in the world and is also owned by a publisher in India with access to the biggest market in the world. It makes utterly no sense other than greed. But really dont worry Turbine is a shockingly poor developer and the management of Lotro and the potential it has wasted would see any game without a licensed Lotro title fail. But really its not matter of when because we all know Turbine will fail, the only positive thing is that WB's wont hesitate one second before closing it down and Turbine will have its just reward for its current management style.

CM nutured and created a great community and were a bit slow on updates but in hindsight it was a great service, with very friendly witty people. As people have said they did really care about the community as they offered as many services as possible to mirror Turbines, I'm sure many lesser publishers wouldnt have done so.

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CM nutured and created a great community and were a bit slow on updates but in hindsight it was a great service, with very friendly witty people. As people have said they did really care about the community as they offered as many services as possible to mirror Turbines, I'm sure many lesser publishers wouldnt have done so.

But you know that Turbine was and is responsible for updates? All CM could do was to translate and send back and then wahaait for Turbine to come by.

But to the topic-question - I think CM knew about this since they signed the contract to publish LotRO. I think the _final_ decision not to go into contract negotiations to extend the hosting of LotRO-Europe fell during the negotiations which caused the F2P-delay.

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Is it from the start way back in 2007, even if it wasn't set it stone, they knew this day would come? Or would it been a total shock?

As others have remarked, it obviously was a four year contract. After WB took over, the chances to actually extend this were slim. When Turbine took back DDO and let the European community out to dry, it was clear that LotRO would not be extended.

I think the F2P delay was just about if CM would get that update at all. Looking at what happened during the DDO tranfer, I guess that Turbine charged CM a hefty fee for F2P.

Will Codies be on the look out for another MMO to either produce themselves or under licence?

CM has been looking for another MMO for years now. No success, from what I know.

I hear thank God that there are no job losses but I wonder what people like Zzeno will do as his job is very LotRO specific.

You heard wrong. Most folks involved directly with LotRO are laid off. Community being the exception I hear. GMs and most network folks (yes, CM does operate the servers) are released. There still is a online department, even though there is no MMO, so probably the management type and anyone involved with the other online stuff will stay.

If just for playing LotRO, I do not mind Turbine taking over. But it did feel nice to have a Europe based publisher. Simply more close to us players in distance and mindset.

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But you know that Turbine was and is responsible for updates? All CM could do was to translate and send back and then wahaait for Turbine to come by.

Yep sure did know that Turbine created all the updates, hence why I believe I said CM were slow at releasing some updates because all they had to do was publish them.

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