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When did Codies know about this?


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Yep sure did know that Turbine created all the updates, hence why I believe I said CM were slow at releasing some updates because all they had to do was publish them.

To be fair, aside from the F2P delay, the only updates Codies were slow in putting on the live servers had massive bugs in them and they had to wait for hotfixes to arrive before they put them live.

Turbine, on the other hand, have been known to release updates with game-breaking/massive bugs in them, so we have that to look forward to know.

Saying that, maybe with more Europeans on Bullroarer, and in the Palantir Private Preview Program, these might get rectified before they go live. The US players seems to me to be more interested in playing the new content than testing the new content.(There's a difference between the two, for sure)

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Looking backwards I'd reconstruct the events this way: Probably back in 2006 or even before: Turbine is looking for a European publisher for LotRO. They're negotiating a 4 year contract with CM that

How many weapons do you have?

I wouldn't be so sure there has been lots of planning - or at least not lots of doing towards the planning. They don't seem to have a lot of firm details to give us which would seem to indicate a lot of the technical work has not been done.

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Although my gut instinct is to feel sorry for CM and to paint Turbine as the evil baddie I guess there is a possibility that the move to Turbine control has been on the cards from day one and that the CM contract was only ever designed as a short term (4 year) scheme to see the game through launch.

Turbine MAY have contracted CM to purely help them launch with an understanding that once done control would revert to Turbine.

CM may have been paid very well for the service...

maybe..

possibly...

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Although my gut instinct is to feel sorry for CM and to paint Turbine as the evil baddie I guess there is a possibility that the move to Turbine control has been on the cards from day one and that the CM contract was only ever designed as a short term (4 year) scheme to see the game through launch.

Turbine MAY have contracted CM to purely help them launch with an understanding that once done control would revert to Turbine.

CM may have been paid very well for the service...

maybe..

possibly...

We don't know all the facts, so it's impossible to do anything but speculate!

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Let's at least conclude that our UK overlords weren't as bad - though we have all had some points in time where our faith in them was tested.

They brought us RP servers, GM support of events in the past, and a forum with lenient moderation.

*bows for Satine & Co.*

Any of their faults - real or imagined - pale in comparison to those of their U.S. counterparts. Players on the NA servers were begging for hacked character restoration a goodly time after Codemasters began making plans for it on the EU servers. That alone was worth my respect for Codemasters, who sought to help the players rather than fall in line with Turbine's drawn out schedule for doing things.

But, as is too often seen, no good deed goes unpunished...

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Saying that, maybe with more Europeans on Bullroarer, and in the Palantir Private Preview Program, these might get rectified before they go live. The US players seems to me to be more interested in playing the new content than testing the new content.(There's a difference between the two, for sure)

I wouldn't bet on it. I know someone on Bullroarer. There's plenty of Europeans on there already, and not all of them are there to bug-test properly, any more than the Yanks are really only there to play. The problem isn't that bugs don't get reported; it's that they don't get fixed.

Turbine invariably seem to have Time & Money as their fixed project drivers. In the classic project management triangle, that automatically fixes the third side, Scope. It's easier to toss bug-testing & bug-fixing out of the window than most other things, when the pressure is on. The test of whether WB's backing has changed that will be what state Isengard is in when it's released. If they've more flexibility on the Money side, then there's more flexibility on Scope & Time, which means either more Time can be granted to get it working better, or there's more resource to keep bug-fixing in-scope within a fixed Time.

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The problem with Bullroarer is that by the time new content is posted there, it is pretty much fixed in stone. Sure, they may use feedback to create a punch list of things to fix down the road, but generally speaking not much will be changed before going live. Basically, Bullroarer is just there to make sure the code doesn't contain some hugely major disaster or blow up completely. That is not how it is advertised, and probably not how it was originally intended to work, but that is how it appears it is being used now.

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Hmmm... Maybe I meant on Isengard, then. I can never remember which is which. The proper test server, not the public preview one (whatever the actual terms for them are).

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Hmmm... Maybe I meant on Isengard, then. I can never remember which is which. The proper test server, not the public preview one (whatever the actual terms for them are).

Isengard is dead. You mean "Palantir"; the 'alpha' closed-under-NDA test server. Bullroarer is more of a prepare-your-epeen-server-first-kill server...

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Goes to show you how much notice I take of behind the scenes. Or either of the "official" forums! He used to be on Isengard, then. I presume he's now on Palantir. And it still doesn't alter the basic point! ;)

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Goes to show you how much notice I take of behind the scenes. Or either of the "official" forums! He used to be on Isengard, then. I presume he's now on Palantir. And it still doesn't alter the basic point! ;)

If he's not a US VIP, he's not on Palantir. You currently have to be a US VIP for that.

After transition tho, we should all be able to apply for Palantir(which, incidently, is what I meant)

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I see what you mean about lack of Europeans on Palanitr now, yes. Nevertheless, I struggle to believe that no American on Palantir ever reports bugs or makes suggestions. The issue has always been the amount of resource Turbine have to fix things within the time allotted.

Remember the disaster that was AoC at launch? FunCom aren't American, and their beta-testers weren't exclusively American. I can remember the criticism that was being aimed at beta-testers by the playerbase in the aftermath of that. I can also remember one of the bet-testers acidly pointing out that, in fact, they had been reporting all these bugs that players were moaning about, and that it wasn't their fault that FunCom chose to release an unready, bug-ridden game instead of fixing things.

Compare the launch of LOTRO. Turbine had the resource to get things right in those days. They released an excellent, relatively bug-free game. If the Turbine subscription model worked the same way that CM's did, I suspect that what happened next was they shot themselves in the foot - Lifetime sub. It meant that they immediately recouped a very big slice of their development costs in a short space time, which probably had the bean-counters & management heaving sighs of relief.

Eight months down the line, though, with none of those lifers paying a subscription & their subscriptions not going as well as they hoped, they found themselves increasingly hemorrhaging money. Increasingly, the quality of updates declined; varying combinations of smaller, later, and buggier; because money was being squeezed. Then along came WB...

A lot of people (including me) have said "make or break" about various expansions from Moria onward. Isengard I think will be the real test. SWTOR is supposed to be coming out some time this year; people seem to be expecting GW2 in Q3 / Q4. I'm sure there are other attractive looking MMOs due for release this year. If Isengard is a fail, they will be in a lot of trouble - people will simply lose faith in Turbine if they get that wrong with WB's money behind them,

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If I ever did bet money I'd put it down on CM knowing about it since the F2P move, possibly suspecting it even before that. When everyone was asking about information during the F2P delay I clearly remember Dnote posting one promise. That the service wouldn't be transferred or shut down in the foreseeable future. That future being 6 months.

Maybe CM were hoping of still working out a deal for a renewed license. But they did know that anything beyond those 6 months was uncertain.

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At least this way I'll have the possibility to persuade some of my old kinnies from before the server split was announced before beta(or whenever it was, I forget, it's a long time ago!)to roll on Snowbourn when they'll be able to! For me, Closed beta was great, I was playing with kinsmen/kinswomen, and unfortunately, Codies made an offer too good to pass up with the Collector's Edition(what a great investment that has turned out to be!).

In one way, it's a shame, really, that we are transferring to Turbine and all that it entails, but also, it's an opportunity for us to take part in things like the Palantir Private Preview Program, and also Bullroarer on our "full" accounts, with Char copy thrown into the mix!

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No Turbine have the rights to Lotr and the appendix's til 2017, after that the game may cease to exist or be renamed as they no longer have the right to use the name. But considering the shrinking player base on Evernight, Lotro wont last till 2017 imo.

I'd say that really depends on what the next couple of years big hitters turn out like when released. If games like SWTOR and GW2 even live up to half the hype surrounding them, I can see Lotro suffering quite badly. If they turn out to be of a similar standard to AoC and WAR I suspect Lotro will continue to limp on in much the way it is now with Turbine releasing overblown and unsubstantiated statements and interviews about how wonderfully everythings going and how happy everyone is with the game. :r

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If I ever did bet money I'd put it down on CM knowing about it since the F2P move, possibly suspecting it even before that. When everyone was asking about information during the F2P delay I clearly remember Dnote posting one promise. That the service wouldn't be transferred or shut down in the foreseeable future. That future being 6 months.

Maybe CM were hoping of still working out a deal for a renewed license. But they did know that anything beyond those 6 months was uncertain.

I would've agreed with you but one of my (now ex-) colleagues at work got a job at CM as a GM at the beginning of December & just got back to me via FB tonight to say they're losing their jobs as a result of this.

As far as I'm aware they were advertised as permanent not fixed term or temp, so maybe it's been a fairly recent decision.

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The guy I worked with jacked in his job in November & moved to Warwickshire to start as a GM beginning of December & now he's out of a job already...

Something smells fishy & I'm not talking about the contents of Baldricks apple crumble...

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The guy I worked with jacked in his job in November & moved to Warwickshire to start as a GM beginning of December & now he's out of a job already...

Something smells fishy & I'm not talking about the contents of Baldricks apple crumble...

Indeed.

If the job was advertised as Permanent, Codies must've thought they were going to keep the service for longer.

Something must've changed after new year.

You can't advertise a job as permanent if you know they're going to be laid off in 6 months.

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The guy I worked with jacked in his job in November & moved to Warwickshire to start as a GM beginning of December & now he's out of a job already...

Something smells fishy & I'm not talking about the contents of Baldricks apple crumble...

Speaking as the CSM I can say it's heartbreaking for everyone concerned in the team, they've worked so hard to bring the best support they can to the players. I will miss the team enormously, this is by far and away the best team I've ever had working for me and they all deserve to move onto something bigger and better, hopefully codies and other companies will recognise their efforts and offer them something commensurate with their talents.

On one other point, GM positions were temp contracts (usually 3 months although we extended a lot to 6 months at one point) but the Senior GM's were permanent.

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Looking backwards I'd reconstruct the events this way:

Probably back in 2006 or even before: Turbine is looking for a European publisher for LotRO. They're negotiating a 4 year contract with CM that lasts 4 years + 1 month after launch (i.e. May 31st 2011).

2007-2008: LotRO is successful but not overly so. They have a very stable customer base, box sales are mediocre. Due to LTAs game time cards are used by less people than in other MMOs.

2008: With the changing markets Turbine is looking for a way to sell their products better. If EU customers mourn about localization they hurt the brand LotRO and the brand Turbine, even if CM is responsible. Since boxed sales are dwindling and electronic sales are rising they decide to take back all the services.

2009: To test new ways they are switching DDO to F2P. CM decides not to follow them because it isn't worth the effort for the remaining contract time.

2009: Mirkwood's success shows Turbine that you don't need boxes to sell expansions. This is another step to taking over EU services.

2010: After the DDO success Turbine rebuilds LotRO towards F2P. Seeing the number of Europeans already playing DDO they decide to do it the same way, leaving CM on the old P2P model.

Now CM starts to protest. LotRO is their last remaining MMO and it is successful enough to warrant the investion into the new billing system etc. They know at this point that Turbine will not extend the original 4 year contract - probably for quite a time.

CM probably has a right to get future updates. So the negotiation starts. Does Turbine need to deliver or is it a new product? Who gets which share of the point revenues? Lots of lawyers were probably wading through 4 year old contracts and finally they found a decision - probably because it was severely starting to damage the LotRO brand in Europe.

2010: CM, knowing about the ending of contract starts cancelling subscriptions.

2011: Services are returning to Turbine.

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With all due respect, guesswork; pointless guesswork. The situation is what it is. Whatever CM & Turbine know, they're never going to tell, and the community is never going to have any influence over such things. So why waste effort constructing theories? :?

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