Jump to content
LOTROCommunity

Religious Infraction


montyburns
 Share

Recommended Posts

I'm not sure how many saw the now closed thread about the 'Soliders of Christ' kinship -

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?454507-Are-these-religious-names-allowed

Anyway, I have a profound dislike for anyone who is motivated by going around trying to push religion on others, especially children. So after the thread was closed I went and checked their website -

http://www.lotro.teamsoc.net/

And part of their homepage statement is - "Soldiers of Christ is an online gaming community committed to spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ through video games"

And from their code of conduct - "Advertise the group to those outside of the kinship. Try to find recruits! Also, do not hesitate to give testimony to our Savior", also "If others outside of the kinship asks you for help view it as a chance to witness to others."

I couldn't give a shit about the infraction, but I don't want the God squad looking for 'new blood' and preaching to my kids about their particular brand of salvation anywhere, let alone in a game they play. If they want to find out about God, they can do so in church and at school.

Anyway, needless to say my more polite version of my above points on the official forum about not wanting my kids preached to, was removed, and I was of course infracted by Sap for 'mentioning religion'.

The irony is that the Soldiers of Christ kinship CoC actually encourages their members to break the game CoC, yet I'm not able to warn others on the official forum - should people want to keep their kids away from them, or in game no doubt because discussing religion is against the CoC. Wonderful eh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is where you run into trouble. If you try to report it to Sap in a PM, and he fancies himself a member of the God squad himself, he'll likely ignore you anyway, though at the least he should be going into the game and forcing a name change on the kin at any rate since it can be offensive to members of other religions. Imagine the outcry that could occur from Muslims, who have long memories of the Crusades. Assuming Muslims are allowed to even use the internet to play LOTRO.

The idea is to avoid doing anything that could offend, even if the subject merits discussion. This is how ideas are stamped down. In fact, the early church used similar tactics to silence great thinkers like Copernicus. Politically correct behavior is just a pseudonym for censure. If you have religious freedom, then it should actually be freedom in practice, not just in print. Though I wonder why they'd be playing an MMO, since the time for games has past and it's time to be adults now, paraphrasing the Bible.

This is why I find it a bit stupid to limit discussion topics, since for the most part, mob rule applies and if most people are in favor of the subject, it matters not who it offends. And, it's hard for Christians to be offensive if they actually practice what they preach, the Bible has a lot of restrictions on the ways they can speak to people, unless you're talking the members of the Westboro Baptist Church or other flakes who pay the religion lip service. If people turn you down you're supposed to just walk away, not name call, rant about God hating you, or scream about your never ending torment that awaits you in Hell, or heckle people who just suffered a death in the family. Those guys are lucky they haven't been shot yet by someone even more flakier than they are. After all, none of them are God, so they can hardly know what's going to happen anyway. And this is from someone who was raised Catholic, and hasn't stepped foot into churches in any regular form for years, mainly due to the ever present hypocrisy, and so called church leaders just like those people in Westboro. I'd even go so far as to claim they are just as fanatic and brainwashing as Middle East terrorists are with their own kids.

Even the most basic naming convention in the game suggests keeping it lore worthy, and AFAIK, Jesus never set foot in Middle Earth. Mind you, I have some characters in a kin called Godlike Crown, but the title is vague enough it could apply to deities in Middle Earth. If it had been forceful, I'd never have bothered with it. I wouldn't report it, since I don't find it offensive, but if someone did, then they have that right to complain. Just like when we complain about names that are veiled sexual references. The way I see it, if you can't use the name of the Muslim prophet in a kin title, neither should you use ANY deity name/title unless it is wholly contrived or isn't lending itself to readily be interpreted to be referring to an actual religion.

I think you got hosed, he could have just let you off with a warning, since the forum IS for posting complaints if properly worded, and at least it wasn't a Turbine sucks post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm, interesting. I recently made a sarcastic post referring to "Update 666" and got negative rep for it...the anonymous person who -repped me stated I was "making fun of others' religious beliefs".

I shrugged it off at the time, but mayhap I really offended somebody?

:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any opportunity to recruit new members to the flock is justified it would seem. On a less serious note, it doesn't sound like much fun being in a christian kin. I have visions of them aggroing the mobs, then turning the other cheek, forgiving them and gathering round the campfire to sign hymns whilst quoting passages from the bible and praying for their salvation. Eventually, even the mobs will end up reporting them to the GMs just to make them go away :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I am a pagan. And I know damn well that if I ever tried to have a kinship or guild in an MMORPG named Gaia's Soldiers or the like, it would get slapped down faster than you can say "Jesus Saves". Why? Because many of the same people who are trying to evangelize on video games like the Soldiers of Christ would report any other kinship/guild that looked like it might be related to a non-Christian religion.

It is stupid.

It is wrong.

Religion has no place in an MMORPG.

Normally I wouldn't even bring my beliefs up in a forum like this, but considering the subject matter I felt is warranted.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As in full on, actually believe in multiple gods sort of pagan? Or the kind that doesn't believe in them and likes the concept?

Full-on Pagan. Well, Eclectic Wiccan, to be specific.

"Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1950"

Yes, that Wicca.

Seriously.

But I digress.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm ashamed to say I don't know much about Wicca, being from the UK. But the original Wickerman film is in my opinion, one on the greatest movies of all time. Edward Woodward's finest hour as Sgt Howie. Unlike the fetid dross that was the Nick Cage remake :S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm ashamed to say I don't know much about Wicca, being from the UK. But the original Wickerman film is in my opinion, one on the greatest movies of all time. Edward Woodward's finest hour as Sgt Howie. Unlike the fetid dross that was the Nick Cage remake :S

Wicca was made in the UK. Just goes to show how much of a hold it had over what is a fairly un-religious nation. Then again, America does like to jump on these sort of things. Just look at these atheist rallies they have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wicca was made in the UK. Just goes to show how much of a hold it had over what is a fairly un-religious nation. Then again, America does like to jump on these sort of things. Just look at these atheist rallies they have.

Yeah, I live out near pendle witch country and my local town is full of 'wicca' shops. I'm sure it's a completely bastardised version and probably has not much at all to do with wicca in reality, but it seems to be what the tourists want. On another note, I'm not suprised they've all converged on Lotro, I wouldn't want to play 'the bible game' either :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The name of the kin violates the CoC, plain and simple. You cannot use proper names of historical or literary figues. Christ fits in both catagories for some and only one for others. I assume upper management is afraid of rustling feathers of certain American groups. I wonder how far I'd get with a Soldiers of Satan kin that dedicated itself to spreading the word of Satanism. Probably earn me a lifetime ban even though its a religion like any other according to U.S. laws

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The name of the kin violates the CoC, plain and simple. You cannot use proper names of historical or literary figues. Christ fits in both catagories for some and only one for others. I assume upper management is afraid of rustling feathers of certain American groups. I wonder how far I'd get with a Soldiers of Satan kin that dedicated itself to spreading the word of Satanism. Probably earn me a lifetime ban even though its a religion like any other according to U.S. laws

As in fictional characters? Because if so both Ghraye Mouser, my burglar, and Grannie Weatherwax, my runekeeper, are in violation.

;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jedi for the win.

Same here! May the Force be with you!

Yeah, I live out near pendle witch country and my local town is full of 'wicca' shops. I'm sure it's a completely bastardised version and probably has not much at all to do with wicca in reality, but it seems to be what the tourists want. On another note, I'm not suprised they've all converged on Lotro, I wouldn't want to play 'the bible game' either :P

Pendle Hell, lol!

That's not too far away from me, lol.

Isn't the A666 near there as well?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Same here! May the Force be with you!

Pendle Hell, lol!

That's not too far away from me, lol.

Isn't the A666 near there as well?

That's the one. The old devils highway. Runs from Pendlebury to somewhere past Blackburn. The death valley section over the moors is still notorious for bad accidents, it's not somewhere you want to be breaking down at 3am either :/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right, so back to the topic at hand...

"Warning" people of a kinship isn't going to fly, regardless of what the kin is about. It's unfounded mostly because you have no proof and you're calling people out specifically (again, another ToS violation).

Their kinship website is offsite, which means Turbine can't use it as far as accountability goes.

All you can do is report their behavior in-game if they ever seem like they are proselytizing. Or you do what every other person does when they come across something they don't like; you put them on your ignore list.

Other than that, seems like it was justified. Just need to keep calm and carry on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really care if they try preaching at me, I'll just treat them the same way as those that knock on my door. But it's not really myself I'm concerned about. I just don't like the idea of my kids accepting an offer for help, then being preached to. There's enough to worry about these days without the bible bashers getting in on the act. I've warned my kids about it, but some of these religious types can be pretty devious with their recruitment methods. But I'm sure what you say about offsite accountability is correct, sadly ( although I dare say if a kin was setup with the intention of gold selling / hacking / exploiting and it was being promoted all over their site as a kin motto, Turbine might be a little more quick to do something ). It just annoys me at the depths they'll stoop to grow their flock. Of course, I'm sure they'd say they were just 'spreading the good news of Christs love' or some other similar bollocks })

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually invite those that knock on my door into my house. They're often surprised but I do enjoy a 'debate' with them. Takes them at least 3 return visits before they decide I'm a lost cause or they seriously question their own faith. Sometimes it's just because they've been raised in that religion or they don't actually know the facts before they made their choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to take this off into a discussion of religion in specific, by inserting mine into the thread. The intent of my comment was that real-world religion period has no place in an MMORPG. I'm not offended if there are Christians (or member of any other religion) that want to get together in a game and play as a group, that's fine. Where it becomes a problem for me is when those people (like the Soldiers of Christ kinship) are doing so specifically to evangelize to others about their religion.

MMORPGs like LOTRO are not the place to be trying to save souls. It is not only against the CoC of every MMO I have ever played, it is also simply bad form. I play to have fun, not to get blindsided if I join a group of folks only to have them ask me if I've heard the Good News about Jesus. If I wanted to discuss a religion on my off-time, I'd go to that religion's place of worship, or ask a friend who is a member of that religion to talk about it with me. When I log into a game, I'm there to enjoy the setting and play that game. Period. My beliefs don't come up, and I fully expect those I'm playing with to keep their beliefs to themselves in kind.

Seems like a pretty simple concept. I have no problem with anyone's religious beliefs, I just don't want to hear about it in-game, as I consider that rude and not something I want to be involved in. That's the original discussion of this thread, I believe. Perhaps we should just stick to talking about whether the Soldiers of Christ were right in their actions or not? My opinion is plain, but what do you think?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

putting on sackcloth and ashes and railing against the world's sin in front of the Prancing Pony or in Galtrev.

For some reason this thought is tempting me to throw on some rags and RP a crazy guy yelling about the end of the world. "The end is near! Sauron has returned and the Elf-Witch sturs in her forest. A plague of wargs and goblins is marching upon us. You shall all pay for your transgressions! Your only hope is to put aside worldly goods and embrace the light of Arda. Give me your gold so that it may be purified and cast away and you will be redeemed! The end of the world is upon us!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Was this kin 'Soldiers of Christ' prothelitizing or recruiting? HUGE difference. Going around preaching is not okay, going around saying that you're a kinship for openly religious people is absolutely fine.

This is from their kin code of conduct - "Advertise the group to those outside of the kinship. Try to find recruits! Also, do not hesitate to give testimony to our Savior", also "If others outside of the kinship asks you for help view it as a chance to witness to others."

So they encourage their members to prothelitize.

I don't think anyone here has said they have a problem with a Christian kin, provided they keep it to themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, if you ask them for help and they cross the line on religious talk in game then report them. I guess I see a lot of people attacking the kin without any evidence that they are doing anything wrong except a line from their kinship web page. I would hope that they have respectful guidelins on how to breach the subject with outsiders, they need to in my opinion.

Don't know them, wouldn't join them, but innocent until proven guilty and all that jazz.

It's more than just a line, it's part of their kin code. what the kin advocates the members to do. it shows clearly one of their aims is to evangelize to others if asked for ingame help. Which is clearly wrong. I told my kids to let me know if it happens, but I know what kids can be like. If they think there is a chance I'll stop them playing or move to another game, the temptation is for them to say nothing. So it's not quite as cut and dried and saying if they do wrong, report them. Also, I'm not even convinced that anything would be done if they were reported ( they may have been reported numerous times already for all I know ). I guess my point is that they shouldn't have a code of conduct for their kin that goes against the code of conduct of the game, especially one rated for 13 year olds, put there for everyones protection. That seems a little odd no?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I could say that I'd really like to throw cream pies at the devs and CMs at Turbine HQ as they come outside, but, until I do, I'm not guilty of anything. (Besides, it would be a really shameful waste of a cream pie.)

You implied that 13-year-olds should be kept safe from Christian witnessing. Is there anything in particular about basic beliefs of the Christian faith that would endanger a 13-year-old in your view? Just curious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...