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The Religion Debate


Jackalope
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The reason Islam is they way it is just now is its age. Most religions go through similar phases. This is the dark age for Islam.

Not all Muslims are the same, all they ones I have meet were nice caring people. It is just the image that their religion has at this time.

I don't disagree with you on an individual basis, a few of my good friends are muslims ( I live in a town with one of the largest muslim populations in the UK ). However, what sets Islam apart from Sikhs and Hindus etc is their unwillingness to integrate / adapt to a Western lifestyle. You just have to look at what's going on in France, Denmark, Sweden, even Australia to realise that something with Islam isn't working in a Western society, that's not just an image problem, that's an integration problem, and I think almost everyone accepts it's getting worse, not better. When religious groups setup their own communities and don't accept Western values, it's never a good recipe for long term cohesion. Christians mainly do at least have a sense of humour about their faith, and are happy to accept a bit of flak in good spirit.

Western values are completely in opposition to a lot of the fundamental concepts of Islam.

As you say, a lot are nice, caring people. No question about it, but there is a significant number who don't see themselves as part of a Western society, or wish to be a part of it. The trouble up till now is that if anyone has dared to point out any potential problems, that they are automatically labelled as nazi saluting, koran burning right wing nutjobs, so it gets brushed under the carpet.

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If an Islamic kin started recruiting in Lotro, the proverbial shite would really hit the fan, with good reason.

This is the double standard that's complete B.S. IMO. I know many Muslims and they're all very decent and kind human beings. In fact, I have yet to meet one who fits the typical ignorant Westerner's perception (not saying you're one, just saying in general). But I don't think there's "good reason" for any shite to hit the fan at all over any interest-group forming a kin based on said interest(s).

Having been the leader of a kin for over 3 years, I have seen the types of people who fit in well, those who hang on the periphery and those who stuck out like a turd in a punchbowl. What goes on in kin-chat or Teamspeak is the glue that holds the group together and I have no problem with whatever that may be so long as it doesn't breed hatred and violence. It's when it goes public that people need to realize their intra-kin mantras might not be so readily accepted. There's only one thing that binds the entire LotRO community together and everyone's probably seen what happens in glff the farther you get away from that...

As far as integration, the Muslims I know still adhere to their religious beliefs and all that goes along with that, but they're trying. The truth of the matter is that they didn't start integrating into Western societies on a large scale until very recently - and look how different the societies are. Kinda shocking, really. Cripes, even look at the U.S. back in the heyday of European immigration. They all segregated themselves into their own ethnic communities. It takes a while for new ingredients in the soup to "fit in". Those who don't adapt will remain persecuted outcasts. That's not really in their best interest in the long-term.

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I live a few months of the year in Chicago, and the situation in the US is vastly different from the UK, at least from what I see. Muslims in America are much more integrated than in the UK. This is mainly our fault, because instead of encouraging them to integrate, we've printed signs in Urdu, all public documents, encouraged faith schools etc, then we wonder why they haven't integrated. But I can tell you the situation here is worse than it was 10 years ago, not better. Even the UK government has now admitted that mulitculturalism has failed. It's not a myth perpetuated by the far right. The Sikh and Hindu communities in the UK have been here around the same length of time, yet there are no issues in that regard, they have integrated well. In my opinion it comes down to Islam as a faith, not the individuals. It is so different from the values we have in the West, oil and water if you like. Sure, a lot of us get along just fine, but my muslim friends would tell you exactly the same, that the stricter muslims see integrating as a dilution of their faith, and their faith comes above anything else. That their loyalty is to Islam above the country the reside in. Which is why I drew the distiction. No other faith takes itself so seriously, or is as unwilling to compromise.

The UK government has finally admitted there is a problem, it isn't a case of blowing it out of proportion, it is a real problem, and the government has realised that pretending nothing is wrong and it will sort itself out given time, is not a viable option. It's been tried, for 40 years in the UK and it simply hasn't worked. - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994

The same in Germany - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11562477

When the problem doesn't exist with Hindu or Sikhs in the same countries, you have to ask yourself why, and in my opinion it comes down to Islam as a religion being much less willing to adapt.

But as far as double standards, It often seems it's fair game to have a go at Christanity as a religion, but mention Islam as a religion, and you're automatically a Nazi. I don't see a distinction. Both are religions, both should be scrutinized equally.

I will say one last thing before leaving it at that, why are newspapers and the press much less willing to print articles involving Islam? Because they know how easily things we think are fair game, or humerous can become a serious and widespread problem when the religion of Islam is involved.

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Indeed, the minute you say anything about islam, you're a far right nutter.

I'll remind people of that gunman in Toulouse(spelling unsure of), when it was first happening and it was announced it was jewish children that had been killed, there was a lot of "must be far-right extremists doing this, neo-nazis or something like that", and my immediate thought was that it was a islamic fundamentalist.

I will say this, even though I live in the UK, I keep checking swedish media at all times. It's a sad state of affairs the way most of them report these days. Leftist claptrap and outright anti-semitic most of the time, but it's apparently ok for them to be anti-semitic, but the minute someone mentions islam, then they are branded a nazi/far-right extremist.

(of course, nazi's aren't on the far right. Nazism as we all know is short for national socialism. And we should all know which side socialists are on).

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For me, personally, as regards religion, whatever it may be.

I think it's fine, people should be allowed to choose whichever religion they want to be without the fear of persecution. But also, people shouldn't try to force it on those that do not want it.

As for what I am. I suppose technically, I'm a member of the Church of Sweden, which would mean I am a Lutheran. This, of course, is only technically, since I was baptized as a baby.

I am not overly religious at all.

For me, I think having Faith is something that's not a bad thing at all, but I cannot get my head around organised religion.

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To be fair, Christianity has come along way since the crusades, and learned from its past. Sadly, Islam seems to have to have taken its place, still stuck with 11th century values.

Idk, I see some sects in the US, and not just the wackos protesting soldiers funerals, reverting back to the crusades. There is a small, minority of military officers telling troops that what we are doing in the Middle East is in fact a Holy War. Some of these Christians want to bring on Armeggedon whether God's ready for it or not.

And seriously, do you think all Muslims are the same? I could say the same thing about some Christians, but that doesn't mean they are all nut jobs.

Hey, I liked Stryper! It was a nice palette changer after a night of Slayer.

I kinda liked Stryper, Gwar was a disgrace to heavy metal.

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I'm not an expert, but aren't most Middle Eastern muslims semites? How can they be anti-semetic? I know anti-semetic refers to the Jewish people, but I doubt many people get that Arabs and Jews are the SAME people genetically, but don't group Iranians with them, because they aren't Arabs. Its a lot more complicated than you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

I don't know about the UK, but in the US as soon as you disagree about anything that Isreal does you are branded anti-semetic.

Also, Nazis may have called themselves National Socialist, but they were in fact, Facist, about as right wing as you can get.

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So I've spent upwards of an hour tonight reading thru all the posts. Kudo's to everyone participating for keeping it civil and thanks for sharing d;)b

I don't really have anything to add except that on one hand, I have no issues with a group of people with like beliefs to build kinships. Although my conviction was irreversible and I am happy to 'witness' to others, I would only do so if the opportunity presents itself-as in this thread. I don't reject others or push my beliefs onto others. I try to see what the kinship that brought up this whole conversation might have meant (I admit I have not went to their website and am only basing my thoughts upon what the OP stated was written there). It is possible that they're not attempting to push their beliefs, but then again, and on the other hand, people are people and there is nothing more alike and yet more different than people. They could very well have every intention of being pushy about it. As far as children go, my just-turned-7 year old grandson plays. I sit right next to him on a different computer but watching everything that goes on in his play sessions. If he were 13, and someone approached him with their beliefs, I would instruct him to make up his own mind about what he believes and also explain that beliefs can and often do change over a lifetime. But I would also tell him that his interaction with people in a game goes only as far as he will allow. Meaning, if he doesn't like someone or something, there's way to stay away from them.

I do believe that people believe what they do based on what is inside them, not what any others have instilled. Meaning, if someone doesn't want or just simply can't believe in God, no person will change that. And if a person does believe in God, no person will ever change that. If there's any complete change that occurs, I believe it is from inside and has nothing to do with anyone else.

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I believe that religion should be shielded from children until they reach a mature age, eg when one learns critical thinking. In my opinion, teaching religion at a young age is indoctrination, rather than education.

I either agree or disagree depending on what age you consider to be too young.

When I was 11 (first year of high school) I had a great Religious Eduction Teacher.

We were taught about many different religions, Christianity (including many different followings such as Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant), Judaism, Hinduism, Islam etc.

I feel that if you teach children at a young age about many different religions it gives then a better understand which leads to less hate and discrimination.

I have found that most incidents of racism and discrimination is down to a lack of education and understanding.

Children tend to be frightened or hit out at things they have no understanding off.

I have always loved the saying that Technology is neutral, its what we as humans do with it that defines whether its good or bad.

The same can be said for religion. It can be a powerful tool for good or it can be used as an excuse to perform terrible acts, it all depends on the person.

I will always say that education about a subject is the best way to go.

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And seriously, do you think all Muslims are the same? I could say the same thing about some Christians, but that doesn't mean they are all nut jobs.

I kinda liked Stryper, Gwar was a disgrace to heavy metal.

Of course I don't think all muslims are the same. But I do think there is a far higher percentage of muslims who take their faith much more seriously and because of that have no interest in being part of Western society, and infact seek to push Islam upon the West. Which is now the view of many Western governments. No Christian groups have ever caused issues on this scale, since the Crusades. I'll give you a couple of examples. I mention the German example because it was the latest I saw on the news.

5/3/2012 "Germany respects the background and cultural identity of its immigrants,” Interior Minister Hans-Peter Friedrich told the Bildnewspaper.

"But we don’t accept the importation of authoritarian, anti-democratic and religiously fanatical points of view.”

A study commissioned by the Interior Ministry found on Thursday, March 1, that nearly 48 percent of non-German Muslims refuse to integrate into the society and reject German majority culture."

Remember the murders over the Danish cartoons, and the crowds on the streets in several countries about this issue, can you remember when any similar faith took things so seriously? Same with the British teacher who named the class teddy bear 'Mohammed', there were mass demonstration in the Middle East calling for her death. Compare this to the Christian reponse to the Monty Python film 'the life of Brian', chalk and cheese.

Christians are fair game, mention Islam and every has to tippy toe about, because we all know how seriously Islam takes itself as a religion. This isn't one or two Islamic nutter like the Westboro Baptists are to Christianity, it's a significant proportion of the Islamic faith which has no capacity for humour, and no willingness to respect the religions of the host country. Does that mean every single muslim feels that way? Of course not, but it's obviously a signficant number, enough to be causing serious problems in most European countries, and now Australia.

I don't want to turn this into a political issue, I simply use the examples to show the difference between Islam and other faiths in the West. As for the Quran, most people here were happy to rip apart the bible for violence, killing, etc. Yet the Quran is filled with far more violence and death, particuarly aimed at differing religions. Islam has many more followers who like to follow their holy book 'to the letter' than other religions. Sure the Bible is full of stuff about killing, but most Christians don't take the old testament word for word, most apply common sense and reason.

In summmary, I think there are two types of muslims, those who aren't strict in their beliefs, who generally fit in well in a Western society, and those that are strict, who tend to have no wish to integrate or accept Western values. So in my mind, that leads me to believe that the issue isn't with muslims as people, but with the religion and book they follow.

I agree with validar that children should be taught about all religions, not in faith schools where one religious view is presented above all others.

Really I shouldn't have mentioned Islam, it's like farting in a lift, but I'm an equal opportunities organized religion opposer and it's about time people stopped treating it any differently than other religions as far as pointing out its flaws.

As for Gwar, they were never a serious metal act. They were clowns with guitars. They were to music what Coco the clown was to theatre :P

Sorry for the wall of bollocks.

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Isn't this off topic discussion? What's it doing in general?

Whatever.

@ Monty - in your texts, replace "Muslims" with "Jews" or "Gypsies", then think back some.

See where it gets you, honestly. Just think, don't react emotionally.

Personally - I'd stick to hating Elves.

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Whatever.

@ Monty - in your texts, replace "Muslims" with "Jews" or "Gypsies", then think back some.

See where it gets you, honestly. Just think, don't react emotionally.

Personally - I'd stick to hating Elves.

This is the thing, I don't hate muslims in any shape or form. I don't wish to burn mosques, send anyone back on banana boats, wear combat boots, or possess any nazi memorabilia either, or say to anyone else this is how you should feel towards muslims. I don't plan to, nor ever have ever voted for any far right party. I've simply stated the way I see it. I treat each muslim I meet exactly the same as of any other faith, infact the muslim family who live next door to me have a key for my house, and I've said everything I've said here to them, and you might be suprised, but they actually agree with a lot of it. If someone doesn't agree, fine. No problem. I'm not out to make anyone change their mind. I just gave the reasons why I feel the way I do.

The whole point of what I was really getting at is, take Islam out of the equation ( ie organized religion ), would there be a problem? Nope. Very few people have a problem with skin colour that I've ever met, we get along well with all skin colours and with people from all over the world ( at least here in the UK ) so why all the tension? As far as I can see, it only leaves the underlying religion. Which as you point out, could also be levelled at the Jews in the past, not so sure about gypsies though.

I do take exception with your slur towards elves though. There are enough elvists about already. Just because we have pointy ears is no reason to hate.

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The whole point of what I was really getting at is, take Islam out of the equation ( ie organized religion ), would there be a problem? Nope.

Negative.

It's "the alien" thing.

Skin colour, smell, culinary or religious habits, are all very useful in identifying and rejecting "the non-integrated alien".

Let's be sincere. The Elves "smell funny", are poncy, long haired and eat garlic.

Mind you, I'm not advocating extermination, some of my best friends are Elves...

Come on...

Wahrheit macht frei!

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I hate muslims who are violent and abusive towards western culture, including those who live (and in some cases were born) in places such as Britain yet still preach hate towards it. They promote islam so fully that the majority of what they say is just morally wrong. They push sharia law and want their religion to dominate whatever country they live in. They actively enrage me to the point of pure hatred.

I dislike muslims who refuse to integrate, including those who wear the traditional dress (call freedom all you like, I'd still be arrested for wearing traditional amazonian dress) such as full on burkas or create muslim only areas. The kind that will protest wars in their (most aren't even born there) homelands and say how bad our culture is yet still live here, asking for more mosques to be built for them. They irritate me for various reasons.

I have absolutely no problem (ignoring that I find their religion to be more evil than good) with muslims who are westernised. They live, work and socialise just like everyone else and they practice their religion in private. They may cherry pick parts of their religion to suit them (unlike the funadmentalists) but that works for them and it has no downsides for us. I cannot fault these people for who they are, just as I cannot fault any good person for who they are, regardless of their private beliefs.

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Negative.

It's "the alien" thing.

Skin colour, smell, culinary or religious habits, are all very useful in identifying and rejecting "the non-integrated alien".

Then why not Sikhs and Hindus also? We've large communites of both those in the UK, they've been here the same length of time and there has never been an issue. Besides, almost everyone in the Uk loves a good curry.

Let's be sincere. The Elves "smell funny", are poncy, long haired and eat garlic.

Mind you, I'm not advocating extermination, some of my best friends are Elves...

Come on...

Wahrheit macht frei!

Bah, I reject your biased view. Elves have the best looking women, look dignified on horseback, and are superb marksmen. Now dwarves on the other hand, truly the scum of the earth. Unwashed, unshaved, drunken layabouts who are only in it for the gold ;)

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Bah, I reject your biased view. Elves have the best looking women, look dignified on horseback, and are superb marksmen. Now dwarves on the other hand, truly the scum of the earth. Unwashed, unshaved, drunken layabouts who are only in it for the gold ;)

We'll make a proper Dwarf out of you yet, mate. :)

@ Doro.

You may find some sympathy towards your “hate the haters” paradox.

As for the rest – no deal.

You don’t like the way I dress, and you want me “integrated”?

I don’t mind you being irritated at all.

Look inside you. Truth will free you.

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@ Doro.

You may find some sympathy towards your “hate the haters” paradox.

As for the rest – no deal.

You don’t like the way I dress, and you want me “integrated”?

I don’t mind you being irritated at all.

Look inside you. Truth will free you.

Why would you go to another country and not want to be a part of it? Surely if you preferred another culture, you wouldn't go to a country that didn't have it.

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Why would you go to another country and not want to be a part of it? Surely if you preferred another culture, you wouldn't go to a country that didn't have it.

Yes, mate - it's called freedom. Trust me - more than one country exists. I've lived for many years in Japan, Holland, England, South America. I carry my culture with me - no Shinto or Voodoo for me, thank you very much. I'd love to have my hut in Canada or Alaska, not because I love their gun-culture either.

One moves, one lives where one wants, and integration lovers who want me to bow deeply to Manitou or McDonald, can stuff their Great Galactic Gizmo up their huge asses.

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Yes, mate - it's called freedom. Trust me - more than one country exists. I've lived for many years in Japan, Holland, England, South America. I carry my culture with me - no Shinto or Voodoo for me, thank you very much. I'd love to have my hut in Canada or Alaska, not because I love their gun-culture either.

One moves, one lives where one wants, and integration lovers who want me to bow deeply to Manitou or McDonald, can stuff their Great Galactic Gizmo up their huge asses.

Well I can clearly see what your mistake is here. Shinto and Voodoo are both forms of religion. Religion isn't culture.

That is where many muslims make the mistake. They bring their culture to another country and expect everyone to accept it, claiming it to be racist otherwise. Those are the same people who make things difficult.

Others have just accepted western culture, seperating their religion from their family's culture, and those aren't the people who cause so many problems in western culture.

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I think this is a fair report from CBS on the state of things. It's hard to deny that a problem exists, due to a clash of religions, or more specifically between radical Islam and a Western lifestyle. Of course, there are many westernised muslims living peacefully in Europe, many more than the radicals. Many of them equally appauled by the extremists. But pretending that religion, and the way it is abused by some, isn't causing a growing and serious conflict is plainly wrong.

I think they should probably have left out the part of the murdered French guy, there are people in all religions who do pretty nasty stuff while quoting from their holy book, but it's the bigger picture that is worrying.

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I have no particular love for Islam, I dislike all organized religions equally, I was being devils advocate. Remember, the KKK, John Birch Society, and many neo nazis consider themselves Christian organizations. Islam is a huge religion, the vast majority are law abiding, its the radicals that get all the media attention. That reveals more about Western media organizations than it does about Islam.

I wouldn't blame Islam for spawning radicals without also blaming the last 100 years of Westerners effing with their region, starting with the UK and France partitioning up the Middle East after the Ottoman Empire lost out in WWI. Making random countries that weren't there before and being colonial powers. The US isn't blameless either, ousting a democratically elected leader in Iran just because he had the nerve to nationalize THEIR oil in the 1950's at BP's behest and installing puppet regimes all over.

As you sow, so shall you reap.

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The only "problem" with Muslims is 9/11. That attack made us more aware of Islam. Afterwards, a few countries (mostly the US) felt the need to invade the middle east to "spread democracy". This created refugees. Refugees who are forced to leave their country. Refugees who just be binding their time until they can safely return to their country. Why would they be interested in integrating when they don't want to be there? Why do they need to integrate in the first place?

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