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Riders of Rohan Pre-Order


Talisman
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i'll still never forget the wow factor the first time I went into rivendel from the trollshaws... I mean wow, blown away.

Yeah, something like that about the audio there. Except it was more wtf than wow. Full orchestral score in *the* elven area... Screaming faux pas, and one of my very few complaints about SoA! ;)

More recently (like, this morning), I went into the re-vamped Moria for the first time, with a numpty non-serious L50 alt. Actually bothering to read the quests & generally pay attention, cos they've changed. The very first one I do is, naturally, a tedious pointless waste of time (so that hasn't changed). Collect 6 dull blades & polish them by clicking, one at a time, on the blades to collect them and, one at a time, to polish each (so no tabbing out to do something less pointless & tedious).

What really annoyed me was this is a solidly dwarven area. Every weapon rack is identical, and every blade is a sword. I'm sure I'm going to see these racks in many locations across Moria. You couldn't be bothered to spend 5 minutes making 2 or 3 variations of the them, and you couldn't bothered to put the occasional axe in a dwarven weapon rack?

Now *that's* lazy! :F

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Well, here was something interesting sent in a message to me from Celestrata. This is just one paragraph from the message but it's the only part that's needed.

Now, again, the reason I placed you into moderation was because you were consistently posting that users should buy the expansion, then demand a refund because it was not as advertised. That is a violation of our rules and it is not appropriate for these boards. For example, how would you feel if I walked into your store, purchased something, used it for a while, and then demanded you give me my money back because it wasn't what you expected? I am certain that you would not allow customers in your businsess us that type of practice just to get your product for free.

I messaged him back to explain why that is just an epic fail.

And I should note, I wasn't saying players SHOULD do this, I was saying players COULD do this thanks to Turbine's sneaky false advertising and inability to stick to the law.

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And why do they keep acting like we're spoiled rotten customers and just not satisfied with said product and not what it truly is....THAT THEY LIE ABOUT WHAT THE PRODUCT IS!!!??? ugh.

Exactly. It's like they don't understand that it isn't about us being unhappy with the product (even if we weren't, we still have our 30 day refund option for that reason) but it's because they are breaking the law by selling a falsely advertised product.

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For example, how would you feel if I walked into your store, purchased something, used it for a while, and then demanded you give me my money back because it wasn't what you expected? I am certain that you would not allow customers in your businsess us that type of practice just to get your product for free.

When the proverbial store has a sign saying "we offer a 30-day money back guarantee", and a checkout line dedicated to obtaining refunds, I wouldn't expect the manager to threaten to kick the customer out and repossess everything they've ever bought from the store just because they asked for a refund.

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When the proverbial store has a sign saying "we offer a 30-day money back guarantee", and a checkout line dedicated to obtaining refunds, I wouldn't expect the manager to threaten to kick the customer out and repossess everything they've ever bought from the store just because they asked for a refund.

Touche! Especially loyal customers

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When the proverbial store has a sign saying "we offer a 30-day money back guarantee", and a checkout line dedicated to obtaining refunds, I wouldn't expect the manager to threaten to kick the customer out and repossess everything they've ever bought from the store just because they asked for a refund.

To be honest, if we were going to use the store as an example, we'd end up with a store that wouldn't be open for long. Turbine lie to their customers, mis-advertise, illegally refuse refunds, ban people for breaking imaginary rules, threaten, deliver inadequate quality products and are just generally incompetent.

Tomorrow, I'll make a new thread on these forums about a customer who enters a store like this with every possible example of Turbine's failure thrown at him.

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They're not quite eager to have people like you, Doro, because they supposedly can't remove the RoR key that's applied to the account. So the players get a refund.. but still have the expansion. I can see why they don't want the word out.

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They're not quite eager to have people like you, Doro, because

Only for that reason??!! ;)

they supposedly can't remove the RoR key that's applied to the account. So the players get a refund.. but still have the expansion. I can see why they don't want the word out.

Actually, that's just another example of their incompetence. They can't programme their keys to hold a flag that can be set enabled / disabled? Really? That's pretty feeble...

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You know, I totally understand that they don't want people to advertise the possibility to buy the game, ask for a refund, but still have the expansions.

In my eyes it's immoral (and yes, they do deserve it to be treated that way, but it's still immoral) to encourage people to buy the game and ask for a refund so they get it free, while most them wouldn't have bought it otherwise, or would have bought whatever was advertised.

Technically you are correct, since they do falsely advertise things, and that is something that should stay in the spotlights till they will communicate in a proper way again, but it's just as immoral as Turbine is practicing business to misuse the law like this.

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You know, I totally understand that they don't want people to advertise the possibility to buy the game, ask for a refund, but still have the expansions.

In my eyes it's immoral (and yes, they do deserve it to be treated that way, but it's still immoral) to encourage people to buy the game and ask for a refund so they get it free, while most them wouldn't have bought it otherwise, or would have bought whatever was advertised.

Technically you are correct, since they do falsely advertise things, and that is something that should stay in the spotlights till they will communicate in a proper way again, but it's just as immoral as Turbine is practicing business to misuse the law like this.

It's immoral for you. I don't see using your legal rights to your advantage over a company that is breaking the law to be immoral. If they don't want people getting refunds and keeping the content still 1) stop falsely advertising and 2) don't design a system that doesn't allow refunds.

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... I don't see using your legal rights to your advantage over a company that is breaking the law to be immoral...

Well, we had that debate. But are you REALLY going to maintain that anything at all which is legal is also moral? What about the comedian who has legally paid 1% tax, is that moral? Banker's bonuses? Benefit reductions for disabled people? Smoking at home with young children? Banning smoking in public? Selling hi-tech weapons to poor african states? Arming the Syrians? Playing football in an oppressive state? Tagging people on Facebook who don't like it? People denouncing neighbours to the Stasi in East Germany? Turbine putting advantage items in the Store?

All of those things are legal, but can anyone really describe all of them as moral? (I picked a weird selection of examples in the hope that no one person could approve of all of them!)

If you maintain that legal = moral, it's the road to dictatorship, cruelty and ruin. Any state can do anything by making up appropriate laws and claiming legality gives them the moral right to do what they want.

On the other hand, realising that an action can be completely legal but also immoral restores individual responsibility and makes public debate and a healthy state of society possible.

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Well, we had that debate. But are you REALLY going to maintain that anything at all which is legal is also moral? What about the comedian who has legally paid 1% tax, is that moral? Banker's bonuses? Benefit reductions for disabled people? Smoking at home with young children? Banning smoking in public? Selling hi-tech weapons to poor african states? Arming the Syrians? Playing football in an oppressive state? Tagging people on Facebook who don't like it? People denouncing neighbours to the Stasi in East Germany? Turbine putting advantage items in the Store?

All of those things are legal, but can anyone really describe all of them as moral? (I picked a weird selection of examples in the hope that no one person could approve of all of them!)

If you maintain that legal = moral, it's the road to dictatorship, cruelty and ruin. Any state can do anything by making up appropriate laws and claiming legality gives them the moral right to do what they want.

On the other hand, realising that an action can be completely legal but also immoral restores individual responsibility and makes public debate and a healthy state of society possible.

At no point did I say all legal things are moral. I believe that's what we'd refer to as a strawman. I said this particular case is moral for me. Had Turbine stuck to the law and done the right thing, then there wouldn't be a problem. To let them effectively 'get away with it' isn't my cup of tea.

*video*

I lol'd.

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At no point did I say all legal things are moral. I believe that's what we'd refer to as a strawman. I said this particular case is moral for me. Had Turbine stuck to the law and done the right thing, then there wouldn't be a problem. To let them effectively 'get away with it' isn't my cup of tea.

OK, I didn't expect you to maintain that all legal things are moral; that was indeed a straw man. But that means that the fact that you're exercising your "legal rights" isn't actually relevant and we need to decide what's moral from other considerations. And now I attempt to close the trap: if it's immoral for Turbine to rip you off by misrepresenting their future plans, why is it moral for you to rip Turbine off by misrepresenting your purchase intentions? :-)

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But that means that the fact that you're exercising your "legal rights" isn't actually relevant and we need to decide what's moral from other considerations.

In the past, Turbine has transferred expansion keys from one subscription to another, removed one key and applied another (both upgrades and downgrades), and removed keys altogether. They were able to do this AFTER the content was released, regardless of any claimed inability to remove applied content.

Would it be reasonable for a store clerk to say "sorry, I won't accept your return because I can't be bothered to make room for it"? Would it be moral to use alternative methods to force the store to honor their return policy?

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OK, I didn't expect you to maintain that all legal things are moral; that was indeed a straw man. But that means that the fact that you're exercising your "legal rights" isn't actually relevant and we need to decide what's moral from other considerations. And now I attempt to close the trap: if it's immoral for Turbine to rip you off by misrepresenting their future plans, why is it moral for you to rip Turbine off by misrepresenting your purchase intentions? :-)

I really don't see how this is so hard to grasp. Turbine breaks the law and rips off their customers. Nothing happens to them. Customers get money back and, thanks to Turbine's fail system, they keep the product. How is it wrong for a customer to both punish Turbine and benefit from it at the same time? It's Turbine's fault any of it happened in the first place because they chose to break the law. A customer shouldn't have to just sit back and let them get away with it because Turbine has a terrible system.

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If customers honestly bought RoR and find out that it actually wasn't what they got told it would be, then pointing them to a refund is fine. But, really, I actually don't want this forum facilitating the 'Hey, just buy it, you can get a refund anyway, since they're doing false advertising' routine.

If you know they do false advertising, don't buy the product. Don't purposefully try to screw the company over. That's not what this community is for.

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(Reply to Doro - failed to use the "Reply button...)

Now you're conflating two situations, and I would rather analyse them separately:-

(1) Turbine incorrectly describes update. Customer is fooled, buys, then finds out reality and uses legal rights to get money back.

=> Moral behaviour by customer, IMO. Whether Turbine can deactivate the code again is irrelevant.

(2) Turbine incorrectly describes update. Customer knows description is incorrect, but decides to buy anyway, knowing that he can then use legal rights to get refund and Turbine can't deactivate the code afterwards.

=> Immoral behavior by customer, IMO.

I think we agree Turbine acted immorally in both examples, possibly also illegally. The only difference in the customer's moral standing, IMO, stems from his knowledge and ultimate intention.

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If customers honestly bought RoR and find out that it actually wasn't what they got told it would be, then pointing them to a refund is fine. But, really, I actually don't want this forum facilitating the 'Hey, just buy it, you can get a refund anyway, since they're doing false advertising' routine.

If you know they do false advertising, don't buy the product. Don't purposefully try to screw the company over. That's not what this community is for.

I was only advocating it for people that bought the game during the time that the instance cluster was advertised but then later removed. Now that it has been put back in, I think it's not necessary now. Obviously, you still could do it but I personally don't see a reason to.

(Reply to Doro - failed to use the "Reply button...)

Now you're conflating two situations, and I would rather analyse them separately:-

(1) Turbine incorrectly describes update. Customer is fooled, buys, then finds out reality and uses legal rights to get money back.

=> Moral behaviour by customer, IMO. Whether Turbine can deactivate the code again is irrelevant.

(2) Turbine incorrectly describes update. Customer knows description is incorrect, but decides to buy anyway, knowing that he can then use legal rights to get refund and Turbine can't deactivate the code afterwards.

=> Immoral behavior by customer, IMO.

I think we agree Turbine acted immorally in both examples, possibly also illegally. The only difference in the customer's moral standing, IMO, stems from his knowledge and ultimate intention.

Unless the customer was psychic, they wouldn't have known that the description was incorrect...

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At no point did I say all legal things are moral.

No, you didn't. But you did also make it quite clear that you were quite prepared to be legal & immoral, even if that is only in response to others doing the same. You can't complain at negative response to your admitted immorality; you certainly can't complain that the immoral other party blocks you!

Lauri - I didn't lol at the video, mostly because Pinalea is one of the c**** who made GLFF worthless & uninabitable. I forget who the other one that I principally object to is, because it's so long since I've had it switched on. But Pin is one of the two main selfish wankers who made it an "I'll say whatever I like & fuck you" channel.

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