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How Turbine Values Their Fans


Liknvi
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Indeed, this was just Turbine seeing what they can get away with and seeing where the line in the sand is, they crossed it, said sorry and now some idiots are praising them.

Gimps, each and every one of them. The kind that would go to E3 just to get their picture taken with Sapience.

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It drives me insane to see all the praise Turbine gets, and everyone who has worked to get the change is left in the dust.

Welcome to LOTROCommunity. This is where players who have - for whatever reason - fought against Turbine and gotten thrown aside, tend to end up. Often it is for the betterment of the game we all love (or loved) that we have fought, sometimes against an injustice from Turbine, but all in all we are now labeled as Malcontents, and thus they try to lessen our voices to others. But as a whole we are not simply 'whiners', as some often call us. We just want the game to be the best it can be, as great as it once was under Turbine's guidance, and to not be treated shabbily by those who run the game and the official forums.

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It drives me insane to see all the praise Turbine gets, and everyone who has worked to get the change is left in the dust.

*O*

I think we can chalk this one up as a victory for everyone who complained, whilst I still feel the expansion is somewhat over priced it's clear that people like yourself and others here and on the official boards who complained so loudly forced Turbines hand. Turbine deserve no praise here, only condemnation for allowing the situation to get so far in the first place.

Welcome to LOTROCommunity

....

We just want the game to be the best it can be, as great as it once was under Turbine's guidance, and to not be treated shabbily by those who run the game and the official forums.

QFT

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I've still not pre-purchased :D

I kinda am pondering things. I would like to at least sample things in beta on Bullroarer whenever beta is released and you can apply for it before making a decision either way.

I also want to get Rocksmith when it comes out over here.

And as well as that. If bands are bands I like at next year's Download Festival, I wanna buy RIP camping tickets, lol. Time for austerity measures!

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I put a post up to thank everyone will see how long it lasts

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?464140-A-thank-you-to-the-players-that-stuck-to-there-principals&p=6233127#post6233127

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For me things are as before:

I will make the decision to pre-purchase after I can see whether mounted combat works reasonably well on Bullroarer. If at whatever point in time I can test it there is no attractive package available anymore, then tough luck.

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I am actually going to twist this round ever so slightly now. As a VIP I expect content updates for free, effectively Turbine have just taken away from me free instances and made it so I now have to pay for them... food for thought

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I am actually going to twist this round ever so slightly now. As a VIP I expect content updates for free, effectively Turbine have just taken away from me free instances and made it so I now have to pay for them... food for thought

Very true. Then again, we didn't even know if they would be for free. If it turned out they were actually going to charge us all extra, then technically we've saved money.

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Very true. Then again, we didn't even know if they would be for free. If it turned out they were actually going to charge us all extra, then technically we've saved money.

I guess we will never know, it does make you wonder though if perhaps Turbine aren't just incredibly Machiavellian and this was there intention all along.

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Very true. Then again, we didn't even know if they would be for free. If it turned out they were actually going to charge us all extra, then technically we've saved money.

Yes, I believe they were actually pondering to charge us all, but saw how pissed off the community were about the situation. Hopefully, Paiz(the male one)'s head will roll, and they'll say, "you told us all this bs about how we could treat customers any which way we pleased, and now look at what's going on. You're out!"

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Yes, I believe they were actually pondering to charge us all, but saw how pissed off the community were about the situation. Hopefully, Paiz(the male one)'s head will roll, and they'll say, "you told us all this bs about how we could treat customers any which way we pleased, and now look at what's going on. You're out!"

Yeah, I think it would be good for the game if they fire him (or just both)

About the pricing, I think it's not a bad price for the base edition, it has a lvl cap rise, a new (possibly 2 if you regard the new end-game content also as one) addition to the game, an instance cluster. Considering inflation we've had since Moria, the prices of other expansions in the gaming world and the 1k TP added, it is a good deal.

If this was the content when they announced it there would be some complaints about the price, since we always want it cheaper, and probably the 6th bag (which is also mqinly because of bad communication), I think the expansion would have gotten mostly positive commentary.

Bottemline: they don't have any feeling with customer-expectations and how to manage those and their PR-department sucks

Imagine they announced the xpac, including lvl cap rise, Rohan, Mounted Combat, a new type of endgame content people would have liked it.

After that they announced the 3 editions with the most expensive edition including a 6th bag we didn't knew it was coming which would later be available to all as separate purchase/ free to VIPs, but only when yoy have active VIP subscription.

They would probably have better sales, and happier customers

And still, they just do the same things wrong, they never learn it

Ps. I know technically the new region and lvl cap isn't included in the sale, but without the expansion it wouldn't be there either, so I don't mind them including it in advertising ( and don't understand why they just don't open the higher lvl cap 1-3 months later to those who don't buy the expansion)

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I doubt anything will happen to the Paiz's, because this is exactly what Fernando said would happen.

If they had never released store armor, they would have only been doing what was expected of them. But after they released a comment about it, people praised them for listening to the community by agreeing to not release any end-game store armor, even when that was exactly what was planned all along.

This is exactly the same. If they had included the cluster with the expansion, they would have only been doing what was expected of them. But now that they added the cluster to the expansion, people are praising them for listening to the community, giving them far more credit and making people far more eager to hand over their money than if the cluster was free the entire time.

Whether by careful planning or reckless incompetence, everything they do lines up almost perfectly with what Fernando predicted in his keynote.

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What amazes me is that after the RoI fiasco and the disappointment many had (and still have) over the lack of content, IC coming later, charging for the raid and the unsolved bugs that anyone is surprised by Turbine with RoR (except for the ludicrous pricing).

So little information if out on the so called "expansion" and people are lining up to give them cash when you already know the same exact problems as RoI are going to be present with RoR. Getting 10 levels with no end game IC at launch is total BS. They announced this expansion HOW long ago. They said back then this was going to be the biggest expansion they ever did (I guess what they were referring to, in hindsight, was the price not the content).

I have to admit, Paiz was right, although if he worked for me and treated customers like this his a** would have been fired a long time ago. I mean you are talking about a guy who basically says it is okay to piss customers off, we will still make money. No you stupid a** bonehead, Paiz, the idea is to make money by pleasing your customers, then you grow your customer base (and revenue) via good word of mouth instead of the disposable, we'll just replace them model because, you see, eventually you run out of customers to replace those who left.

The damage this guy (and Sap) have done to Turbine for their long term prospects in incomprehensible. Mark my words, Turbine will, if not this year very soon, be coming to the cliff soon enough when all this stuff will come back to haunt them hard.

What I would love to see at this point is instead of someone taking evidence to the BBB, to instead forward it to a class action law firm. With sufficient evidence they would eat up the chance to file a suit against WB, after all, they go where the money is. It may seem small to one person, but a chink in the armor of a major corporate cash cow (Warner Brothers) is huge for these type of law firms and they will eat it up.

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What I would like to know is WB behind this or is it just turbine incompetence? If this is just turbine then someone at WB has got to be saying "WTF is wrong with you morons?" and hopefully, heads will role......but it will probably be some lowly webtician who will get blamed for copy and pasting RoI's FAQ.

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What I would like to know is WB behind this or is it just turbine incompetence? If this is just turbine then someone at WB has got to be saying "WTF is wrong with you morons?" and hopefully, heads will role......but it will probably be some lowly webtician who will get blamed for copy and pasting RoI's FAQ.

If WB got behind this, I'd have said it was the legal department realising they'd lose a lawsuit faster than some complainers can jump back on the Turbine praise bandwagon... And not only that, but as has been said, it was a PR nightmare that needed a fix and needed it quickly.

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If WB got behind this, I'd have said it was the legal department realising they'd lose a lawsuit faster than some complainers can jump back on the Turbine praise bandwagon... And not only that, but as has been said, it was a PR nightmare that needed a fix and needed it quickly.

I mean was WB behind this from the beginning, if so then this is what we should expect, and worse, from now on. I have no doubts that WB made a phone call to make them turn this around and save face.

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I mean was WB behind this from the beginning, if so then this is what we should expect, and worse, from now on. I have no doubts that WB made a phone call to make them turn this around and save face.

Ahh, now I see. My apologies. Staying up for two days straight seems to ruin my reading skills. 7(8)7

I think it might be a little of both, but WB had a lot to do with it. It seems that since ever WB took over, Turbine has been descending into worse and worse states (although some could argue SoM was the beginning).

This isn't the same Turbine that made MoM, that's for sure. Whether that's WB replacing them or not, I can't say. Unless people pull their heads out of the sand as to what Turbine is really pulling, it's definitely going to get a lot, lot worse. This seems to just be a testing ground for Turbine/WB to see what they can get away with... They've seen a bigger retaliation than before, but they've also now seen that tossing in some imaginary money will fix it in a snap.

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If WB got behind this, I'd have said it was the legal department realising they'd lose a lawsuit faster than some complainers can jump back on the Turbine praise bandwagon... And not only that, but as has been said, it was a PR nightmare that needed a fix and needed it quickly.

WB involvement in this is probably limited to setting quarterly revenue targets for Turbine to achieve, they have far too many properties to manage to worry about this little gnat's ass known as Turbine. I am fairly positive what Turbine is doing is solely of their own accord.

That being said, however, they are still wholly owned by WB and therefore a tempting target for class action firms.

As an aside, here in MI where I am from, one customer got pissed at overdraft fee charges from a certain large bank here (they were doing that computer ordering to maximize overdraft fees). Now, she was only out about $200 (small I know) but took it to a class action firm here who took up the case. The result - it went to court and the bank was ordered to refund all customers over the last two years any overdraft fees that were charged (that was $20 million), second they had to pay the law firm it's fees (that $2 million), third they had to pay a fine (that was another $6 million). So, I'm sure the bank thought this was just a customer and it was $200, how important was she. That stupid decision cost them a total of $28 million. Turns out that little customer was a big deal after all.

If those still playing LOTRO really want this predatory and exploitative behavior from Turbine to stop, you would be doing yourself and fellow gamers (what's left of them) a favor by presenting this evidence (along with some from the RoI debacle) to a class action lawsuit firm (there are some really go ones in Boston) and letting them know Turbine is owned by WB. Watch how fast they will be willing to get this lawsuit going if they smell blood. Like Sharks in water are attracted to blood. Remember, class action firms do not get fees from the initial plaintiff, they get them from winning the case with the shark food (in this case WB).

Turbine needs the same lesson that the bank above learned. Then at least no one in the industry will be willing to listen to Paiz anymore. Quite frankly, the guys business behavior (and what he preaches) borders on illegal. They need to have this cost them heavily if anyone ever wants a chance of saving this game.

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I think it might be a little of both, but WB had a lot to do with it. It seems that since ever WB took over, Turbine has been descending into worse and worse states (although some could argue SoM was the beginning).
I don't think WB is the cause of the decline as much as Paiz herself.

When Paiz joined, she did so secretly, waiting 8+ months before telling anyone that she replaced Steefel as the new EP.

When F2P was announced in June 2010, they said they had been planning it for "a good chunk of the previous year". But in July 2009, Patience said that F2P was "not happening". When that was questioned, the original post was purged and any questions regarding the exact timeline were swiftly deleted.

Both of these examples of intentional misinformation happened directly under Paiz, long before WB was even a factor. At this point, I think WB is the only thing left holding Turbine to any sort of acceptable/legal business standard.

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I don't think WB is the cause of the decline as much as Paiz herself.

When Paiz joined, she did so secretly, waiting 8+ months before telling anyone that she replaced Steefel as the new EP.

When F2P was announced in June 2010, they said they had been planning it for "a good chunk of the previous year". But in July 2009, Patience said that F2P was "not happening". When that was questioned, the original post was purged and any questions regarding the exact timeline were swiftly deleted.

Both of these examples of intentional misinformation happened directly under Paiz, long before WB was even a factor. At this point, I think WB is the only thing left holding Turbine to any sort of acceptable/legal business standard.

Exactly. People just mis-remember. The deceptions started right with Paiz starting, and deceiving people about it. And the heavy-handed customer handling also happened before both f2p and before the WB deal went through.

The Nazi tactics were Turbine's decision for selling, not decisions made by the buyer.

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I, personally, think both the Paiz's are a waste of sentience... but having said that, you have to hand it to them, they know how to get maximum profits from minimum of work.

I see no evidence that the financial plans for f2p worked out great.

The only piece of data we were ever given was a burst of TPs spent in the quarter after f2p. Since then nothing. In particular, there has been no new "greatest quarter". For all we know a large part of the player base just got their personal equivalent of a lifetime sub in the quarter after f2p and has reduced spending since then to a fraction of what the subscriptions cost.

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I see no evidence that the financial plans for f2p worked out great.

The only piece of data we were ever given was a burst of TPs spent in the quarter after f2p. Since then nothing. In particular, there has been no new "greatest quarter". For all we know a large part of the player base just got their personal equivalent of a lifetime sub in the quarter after f2p and has reduced spending since then to a fraction of what the subscriptions cost.

I didn't say they were doing good. I said they found a way to get the most money from the least effort. Obviously if they put in loads of effort, they'd end up with more money but that's not how they do things.

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@Liknvi

It's up to you, but that e-mail response, threatening to ban your account for seeking a refund on a pre-sell component actually is considered coercion under Massachusetts law. This is a general civil offense in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. In addition, if their are others where this same e-mail was sent, what this opens up is a potential massive liability for Turbine and WB; far beyond simply consumer protection laws.

Turbine has severely overstepped their legal bounds with this whole RoR fiasco and it will take someone with the courage to finally stand up to this abuse to get it stopped once and for all.

Also, FYI, anything published by the company at time of purchase is admissable in court as leading a consumer to believe what will come with a product, correct or not. Secondly, Turbine saying the FAQ didn't matter is complete bullocks as they retracted such in writing PROVING they knew people were making purchasing decisions based upon such information. Remember, in cases like this it is the burden of the company to prove no one purchased based on such information. If so much as one other person besides yourself (which their own forums prove is true) purchased based on the same incorrect information, the court will not allow Turbine to dismiss that this information didn't matter.

At the end of the day, this is why they sweetened the deal - besides in this case they have in fact crossed the legal bounds in the Commonwealth. Contrary to what Dark is arguing on the forums, the intent to mislead is only for committing fraud (it must be proven it was intentional) - however, the e-mail you received is coercion - threat of retribution for exercising your legal consumer rights - which is a whole different matter.

See reference to Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 93 "Fair Dealings". I believe Part A is for business to business and another one is for business to consumer.

This is another good resource for understanding Coercion in legal definition and right: http://research.lawyers.com/glossary/coercion.html

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I can see the TV commercial now

"If you have been mislead, cheated, coerced, or a victim of bait and switch tactics from Turbine gaming company between the years of 2007 & 2012, call us! You may be entitled to compensation."

ROFL.

ahem.

sorry.

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