Jump to content
LOTROCommunity
Altreg01

We need a Lies Turbine has told thread

Recommended Posts

"We're taking out -% damage scroll from store per community request" = "look look we listen!!"

few months later

-Scroll added to store quietly-

This is the one that broke me with regards to Turbine. I campaigned very hard to get this removed originally as it was obvious to me that it was the most blatant example (at that time) of breaching their 'conveniance not advantage' mantra. It was Sapience who advised in my thread that it breached the 'advantage' rule and it was going to be removed, and I was foolish enough to believe we'd had a win. When it was stealthed back in to the store a couple of months later, I was gobsmacked. I vowed at that point that Turbine would never see another cent from me, and I'm happy to say that I've maintained that pledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Clear communication is something we always strive for"

"We will, of course, learn from our mistakes, and always look to the future when it comes to clearly corresponding with you guys."

-Celestrata

Lolz.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Clear communication is something we always strive for"

"We will, of course, learn from our mistakes, and always look to the future when it comes to clearly corresponding with you guys."

-Celestrata

Lolz.

Ohh yeah he deserves a pat on the back thread alright....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Clear communication is something we always strive for"

"We will, of course, learn from our mistakes, and always look to the future when it comes to clearly corresponding with you guys."

-Celestrata

Lolz.

I could have sworn I saw Sapience say exactly the same thing about a year ago. I must have imagined it :P

Reminds me of when we used to get caught smoking at school and after putting on the 'oh it was a dreadful mistake and it will never happen again' act, walking off and lighting another as soon as we were around the corner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sapience said it too.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?442106

That brings us to our final point: communication.

We’ll take this as a sign that we need to do a better job in clear and open communication. In the future we will take more time to explain why - not just what we’re doing.

SInce that was posted, the amount of meaningful communication seems to have decreased rather than increased. Perhaps they think that if they don't talk, nobody will be angry with what they have to say?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SInce that was posted, the amount of meaningful communication seems to have decreased rather than increased. Perhaps they think that if they don't talk, nobody will be angry with what they have to say?

If I was a braver person, I would have said just that when I saw that post of Celestrata's.. but I'm not as I'd rather not start down the infraction journey. ^^ :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about...

"We have implemented new technology that will fix the lag issues"?

I work as a software developer and I use this trick all the time. If someone reports software running slow or lag often I will just leave it a few days or a week and then go back to them and say "I fixed it!". 9 times out of 10 I'm thanked and look great and everything is better, even though I haven't done anything at all, this is beacause whatever isp, PC or network issue they were having at the time has disappeared. I honestly suspect this "placebo" fix is what Turbine were trying on as well. It's actually not that uncommon. Obviously in Turbines case the issue actually is with the software so it didn't work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always suspected that Turbine tried to change game network code and server's architecture to more dynamic to cut down on server's costs and this backfired.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always suspected that Turbine tried to change game network code and server's architecture to more dynamic to cut down on server's costs and this backfired.

Same here. It looked like Turbine tried to go with a less costly server architecture, and this created a lot of lag, which Turbine then did everything they could to cover up, explain away, and blame on the players and their ISPs, rather than take responsibility for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My take on the lag in RoR is more about larger sight range and fights on larger areas. The speed of war-mounts makes our foot fights seem very static, and this increased awareness area only generates more network traffic and sensibility to lag. The lag in the great river area or Galtrev cannot be explained by this, so there might be some truth to a screwed up modification at Turbine's datacenter. What does not compute about this is that it is not really cheaper to change things in your datacenter than to keep things as they are. So unless a hardware bit failed and wasn't replaced or was replaced with cheaper things at the same time as an expansion was released, this cannot be a serious possibility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My take on the lag in RoR is more about larger sight range and fights on larger areas. The speed of war-mounts makes our foot fights seem very static, and this increased awareness area only generates more network traffic and sensibility to lag. The lag in the great river area or Galtrev cannot be explained by this, so there might be some truth to a screwed up modification at Turbine's datacenter. What does not compute about this is that it is not really cheaper to change things in your datacenter than to keep things as they are. So unless a hardware bit failed and wasn't replaced or was replaced with cheaper things at the same time as an expansion was released, this cannot be a serious possibility.

Thing is we don't know how their datacenter operates. Is hardware leased or bought? Is it operated by 3rd party company or by their own technicans? Is it in their building and they pay for power or it is shared with other companies or totally operated by 3rd party company power included? Did being bought by WB changed something in this matter?

Things are usually not as simple as it seems. Sometimes it is cheaper to change hardware because old hardware use alot of power, especially with electricity cost skyrocketing in last years. Sometimes you might want to cram your software on lesser amount of machnines because you can use those servers / cycles you freed on supporting other software your company have instead of buying new hardware.

With virtualization technologies in servers and heavy instancing / zoning in mmorpg's investing in optimizing your servers's usage can be very beneficial even in relative short term peroid. So is changing old servers from 2007 to new lesser in numbers and much more power effeficiant. At least on paper that is.

When Lotro went freemium and they opened new servers and planned to get license back from Codemasters they had to get new hardware. Buy or lease whatever, but they simpy had to accomodate initial rush of free players and thosands of european players.

Since initial months Lotro lost players which is normal and then went on patch of small slow bleeding of players. So imho Turbine propably tried to phase out old servers from 2007 and to put Lotro fully on those only new machines bought for freemium / european servers (without buying additional ones obviously), phasing out those old initial Lotro servers completly.

Something went wrong with code changes and / or hardware is not enough because of that anymore.

Remember when you travel around in Lotro you're not on same hardware. When you enter a auction house in Shire you propably switch servers, when you go to instance you change server, when you go from Bree to Ettenmoors you change server, etc

It is not like because you're on Laurelin and you're in Bree and your friend is in Moria and other one in Hytbold that mean you're on same physical server. You're probaly all on diffrent hardware.

Especially instances are easy to dynamically allocate to diffrent hardware. So in friday you were playing your favourite skirmish on Gilrain and you played on machine X in datacenter and in saturday you played same skirmish on Gilrain but in reality you were playing on machine Y in datacenter totally other hardware. That's dynamic alocation and using vrtualization that allow's that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know all that, but why would they add the complexity of a client update to the difficulties of a hardware change. Unless you can point to lag issues which appeared during a scheduled downtime without any patch, chances are the lag is coming from the software changes, not the hardware.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always felt its more likely a software problem, frankly hardware issues or inadequate hardware isn't that difficult to diagnose yet Turbine seem to be struggling to come up with a decent fix for this. It would be far more difficult to undo some fundemental change in the software (client or server side)

for example, and this is just one possiblity, lets say they rolled out some client or server side software changes in some previous update in preparation for mounted combat. To roll those changes back would mean the removal of mounted combat which Turbine wont be willing to do so its much harder to fix than simply upgrading or repairing some hardware.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I stand by what I said originally:

The lag introduced with U6 and still being the majority of reported problems looked to me like they screwed up something about how their code deals with exceptional UDP packets (missing, duplicate, out-of-order). Not so much plain causing it but putting in a bug that causes server and client to not quite agree in the last details of how to deal with a given situation.

This explanation is also very compatible with some people physically close to Turbine observing it not at all or less. Your network path must mess with packets in the first place before you can experience the bad code dealing with it.

It also explains why there isn't totally random lag, there are a lot of these pauses that as between 2 and 3 seconds, a lot more than shorter or longer. A network retransmit done in software would explain that nicely, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, this thread has veered off course for too long. Where are the infractions ? the bans ? Should it be closed and moved to off topic ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know all that, but why would they add the complexity of a client update to the difficulties of a hardware change. Unless you can point to lag issues which appeared during a scheduled downtime without any patch, chances are the lag is coming from the software changes, not the hardware.

Update 6.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know all that, but why would they add the complexity of a client update to the difficulties of a hardware change. Unless you can point to lag issues which appeared during a scheduled downtime without any patch, chances are the lag is coming from the software changes, not the hardware.

As far as we know the U6 update had both a software update and hardware update.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Update 6.

That's my point, it was a big software update which brought the lag, not a regular downtime where they fix some hardware. By the way, I think I remember a time when a downtime was announced as being a hardware update.

Edit: just saw Darmokks answer. I am browsing a bit for hardware update announcements, found one in 2009: http://www.mmosale.com/-p-2772.html and http://www.lotrolife.com/news_full/lotro_hardware_upgrade/636/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×