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Doro

Champion Improvements

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Well, to an outside observer, there isn't much that needs changing for a Champ. Hell, even a casual champ won't see much that's wrong. Yet there are some finer points that are an issue currently.

DPS

1. With the increase in Clobber cooldown, the Wild Attack > Swift > Brutal > Clobber rotation was destroyed. With that went 2handers being the same as DW for champs. If you don't already know, Clobber used to help break the Brutal animation so DPS was increased but with the higher cooldown, it's not a viable option.

Clobber needs the cooldown reduced again or maybe just make Swift an immediate skill so it will do the same job.

2. Along with Clobber hitting 2handers, so too did the stats on Offhands. My current offhand gives me 150 Might, 384 Phys Mast and 384 Crit. You'd be remarkably lucky to get the same Phys Mast and Crit as base stats on a 2hander but it's impossible to get the same level of Might. This gives DWing a huge advantage.

Either massively increase the base stats on 2Hs or, and I rather like this idea, take base stats off and give a new item that will slot into our Offhand slots but won't be a weapon (maybe a Scabbard, which we obviously won't hold, it will just be in the Offhand slot). This item will give us the same stats as an offhand would, giving people a proper choice between DW and 2H.

Tanking

1. It seems our Aggro Gen hasn't scaled the same as everyone elses DPS. All our Aggro skills aren't enough to match a properly geared DPS monster. If a straight Aggro Gen increase is too boring, here are some suggestions:

Maybe introduce a skill (of the same sort of thing as Blade Brother, Shield Wall and Melody of Battle) in which we can pick a member of the raid and it will remain on them until range is broken. This skill would transfer 50% of all threat to the Champ constantly. Either that or a skill that will generate AOE aggro every few seconds on all targets within a certain range of the champ.

This is all I can think of currently. Feel free to add your own.

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Aggro gen for guardians isn't very powerful either, we manage with force taunts and aggro copying tools. The only aggro freaks are wardens. But looking for balance is something which isn't a concern for Turbine anymore, I can't remember when the game last felt balanced. Was that SoA ? MoM was broken for quite a while (fervour tanks). MIrkwood was OK I guess.

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Aggro gen for guardians isn't very powerful either, we manage with force taunts and aggro copying tools. The only aggro freaks are wardens. But looking for balance is something which isn't a concern for Turbine anymore, I can't remember when the game last felt balanced. Was that SoA ? MoM was broken for quite a while (fervour tanks). MIrkwood was OK I guess.

I disagree. Aggro gen for my hobbit guard has always been smooth, even when I first started to learn how to tank :) With right legacies, threat stance and rotations, aggro is very easy. When I was undergeared and a new guard, I didn't have any problems in Too raids and other stuff.

On the topic, I think champs are in a great place. And one of my 2 mains ( hunter and champ). I loved Orion's work on it. But most likely some newbie dev is gonna screw champs hard. Upcoming trait trees doesn't sit well with me either. They are gonna make us choose between st and aoe dps and that's messed up.

I don't think champs need any improvements atm except maybe for tanking.

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Wardens pull more aggro than guards now? That can't be right.......................................

As for Champ aggro, please... guards and wardens have problems with hunters, whatcha expect =D

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Wardens pull more aggro than guards now? That can't be right.......................................

As for Champ aggro, please... guards and wardens have problems with hunters, whatcha expect =D

Well let me put champ aggro in perspective for you. When I tank BFE, I usually take the Troll that will die last. I've spent the entire time leeching heal aggro and spamming aggro skills but the second the first troll dies, the tank comes screaming over to out aggro me. And do you know what? I've lost aggro in seconds. Those SOBs think I can't handle a troll?! BLASPHEMY!!! :P

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Well let me put champ aggro in perspective for you. When I tank BFE, I usually take the Troll that will die last. I've spent the entire time leeching heal aggro and spamming aggro skills but the second the first troll dies, the tank comes screaming over to out aggro me. And do you know what? I've lost aggro in seconds. Those SOBs think I can't handle a troll?! BLASPHEMY!!! :P

I took 2nd trolls aggro with my guard from a EoB spamming warden once :) Without force taunts. Took me 30 seconds. Maybe he was slacking I don't know :P

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I took 2nd trolls aggro with my guard from a EoB spamming warden once :) Without force taunts. Took me 30 seconds. Maybe he was slacking I don't know :P

I don't know what changes were made to Wardens since Mirkwood, but just spamming EoB is not good idea and if you are tanking one target (which I assume he was since you speak about some kind of twins boss) then it's awful idea and poor tanking. Unless EoB underwent some massive changes that have changed this skill "philosophy" since Mirkwood times that is.

@Doro

If that was a Guardian that took the Troll they used to have force taunt skills, so they can take agroo in seconds from anybody no matter how much agroo you generate.

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@Doro

If that was a Guardian that took the Troll they used to have force taunt skills, so they can take agroo in seconds from anybody no matter how much agroo you generate.

But force taunts don't last forever. Champs have a force taunt too but when it disappears, it will just go to the highest aggro builder. The Guard managed to keep the aggro even after the force taunt, despite all that time I'd spent building my own aggro.

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But force taunts don't last forever. Champs have a force taunt too but when it disappears, it will just go to the highest aggro builder. The Guard managed to keep the aggro even after the force taunt, despite all that time I'd spent building my own aggro.

I think Guardian have(lr at least had) several of them. I don't remember if Guardian had any agroo steal, transfers or dumps maybe? Damn I used to know more about Lotro classes even those I haven't played - time wipe some memories after all...

Anyway after he got an agroo from you was you still agrooing trying to get it back or was giving up after a while? Were other champions dumping agroo on this guard?

Last but not least - champion main role was dps after all, class was kinda perceived as dps class with some nice secondary tanking capabilities, so no wonder that his tanking role is weakest comparing vs Guards & Wardens (or at least it used to be when I played),

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Anyway after he got an agroo from you was you still agrooing trying to get it back or was giving up after a while? Were other champions dumping agroo on this guard?

Yup, I used everything I could and the champs were only in my group so could only dump aggro on me (probably didn't, though, as most champs seem to ignore Ebbing Ire).

Last but not least - champion main role was dps after all, class was kinda perceived as dps class with some nice secondary tanking capabilities, so no wonder that his tanking role is weakest comparing vs Guards & Wardens (or at least it used to be when I played),

Yeah, it's weaker but it shouldn't be so drastic. A Guard in full DPS mode is amazing but requires lots of power. Champs are similar (we have two skills that can drain half our power pool in one use) but they haven't been improved in Aggro Gen.

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Guardians have Engage which automatically makes them the most threatening target (60s cd). They also have perceived threat on top of normal aggro skills which acts as a bit of a buffer as well. I don't recall Champs (or Wardens) having any perceived threat. Guardians also have Whirling Retaliation which is an AoE threat leech as well as a couple ToTs. But the Warden EoB spam is hands-down the best aggro taker/keeper in the game right now - bar none - because you don't need a target and it's a spammable AoE.

Threat is the one solid mechanic found in LotRO that I really miss in other games. I haven't found it to be a significant concern in any other MMO I've played (which admittedly isn't a ton).

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Threat copy + perceived threat is certainly a very good way to pick anything tanked by the off-tank. If you have been generating aggro for three minutes, with a good belt and the threat position a guard can not only snatch aggro from you with a single skill, but go afk for a full minute after that and still have aggro when he comes back to his keyboard.

But I was talking about raw aggro generation, and if your DPS can't pick up aggro when you don't use engage or force taunts, they are sleeping behind their keyboards.

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Can I ask what spawned this thread? Perhaps the impending class revamps? I'd encourage you to make these remarks on the LIVE boards if you can =)

Especially you Bohunk, the one about "Threat is the one solid mechanic found in LotRO that I really miss in other games" *cough*

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Jinjaah asked for feedback shortly after they announced class revamps, but has been conspicuously absent since his original post.

Considering that 80% of the responses were along the lines of, "Please don't screw up Champs - we're fine as is," and the fact that he probably is going to be making sweeping changes regardless (skill trees alone could really change the class), I'm not surprised that he hasn't been back. Why would he subject himself to our inevitable responses to, "Um, sorry guys, a lot of stuff is changing. Deal with it."

To your OP here, Doro: there's some thread on the official forums in the Champ sub-forum in which a guy shows that using Clobber doesn't actually increase DPS - at least not by speeding up the rotation - because the skill following that still fires at the same time as it would were Clobber not used. He measures to the thousandth of a second.

The Clobber change has basically cost 2-h Champs the DPS equivalent of 6 Clobbers/minute, which certainly is an amount greater than zero, but what is that: 10, 20 DPS? That's hardly noticeable on a class whose DPS can vary by a couple hundred points from one fight to the next based solely on which skills happen to crit during each fight.

However, in fairness to 2-h Champs, for a couple years now I've thought that 2-h Champs should have the option of "deconstructing" an off-hand weapon and adding the stats from it to their 2-hander - replacing the existing stats, of course. Although that means I'd be competing against an extra Champ occasionally for that shiny off-hand drop (well, in the old, sensible loot system, at least), it'd go a long way towards getting rid of the inequality caused by one set of Champs getting to choose the stats in one slot vs. the other set not having a choice.

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I took 2nd trolls aggro with my guard from a EoB spamming warden once :) Without force taunts. Took me 30 seconds. Maybe he was slacking I don't know :P

How long ago? With the addition of Aggression, which is a spammable force taunt. Just alternating Aggression and EoB I doubt any class can hold agro better than a Warden currently. The skills now needed with Wardens isn't holding agro, it's survival. I may be talking out my ass, I haven't tanked a raid on my Warden in well over a year, but I recall when I was running Limlight Gorge dailies I was purposely letting a strength stance Huntards grab agro just to see how good Aggression is. Once I used Aggression the Huntards never got agro again.

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I'd say the clobber issue should be solved in another way. Using a skill to stop animations so you can do more damage is weird. Damage should be looking fluent, so increasing the damage of a 2-handed weapon should solve the problem too.

Interrupting a skill which is not fully executed, should not be rewarded to be honest

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How long ago? With the addition of Aggression, which is a spammable force taunt. Just alternating Aggression and EoB I doubt any class can hold agro better than a Warden currently. The skills now needed with Wardens isn't holding agro, it's survival. I may be talking out my ass, I haven't tanked a raid on my Warden in well over a year, but I recall when I was running Limlight Gorge dailies I was purposely letting a strength stance Huntards grab agro just to see how good Aggression is. Once I used Aggression the Huntards never got agro again.

It was the first week of new Erebor raids. The warden was full geared and he got mad at me for taking his aggro. He took it back then I took again and held it.

Regarding those huntards, strength using hunters don't worth shit :P I can get all aggro with my hunter if I want to with capped crit and 37k mastery unbuffed :) Only wardens can prevent it by spamming taunts like crazy.

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Can I ask what spawned this thread? Perhaps the impending class revamps? I'd encourage you to make these remarks on the LIVE boards if you can =)

Well, what spawned it was running a few instances and raids lately and finding that aggro just can't be held against people with FAs (especially not hunters who stand so far away that you can't use Rising Ire on them and who run AWAY from you when they get aggro). My survivability has been made incredible since all this Crit Def appeared on loot with U10 but aggro just seems to be sitting in the gutter.

Also, can't make any suggestions on the official forums because the douchebags over there decided a perma-ban was in order for disagreeing one of the CMs does an awesome job. Wouldn't make much difference anyway, since Turbine are only going to listen to their Council now (who I'm hoping will at least ferry some of these ideas over to the secret meetings).

However, in fairness to 2-h Champs, for a couple years now I've thought that 2-h Champs should have the option of "deconstructing" an off-hand weapon and adding the stats from it to their 2-hander - replacing the existing stats, of course. Although that means I'd be competing against an extra Champ occasionally for that shiny off-hand drop (well, in the old, sensible loot system, at least), it'd go a long way towards getting rid of the inequality caused by one set of Champs getting to choose the stats in one slot vs. the other set not having a choice.

That's actually not a bad idea.

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