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Helms Deep - Guardian Dev 'diary'

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guardian is already near the bottom of the list for classes i like to play... i suspect these changes shall make me like it even less.

unfortunately, the same can likely be said for every other class.

now, is anyone left on that tiny tiny team defending these class changes able to highlight how much more fun to play, or more functional ANY class will be?

anyone...

i suspect no. or we'd be having a very transparent presentation of each class, & touting the strengths & new fun & so on.

instead, vague dev diaries that say next to nothing.

if ease of threat management was such a great new feature... i know i'd bother explaining it. i'd promo the shit right out of it.

but THAT isn't happening.

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Hmm, just read it. Too complicated. I wonder if I'll be able to make a hybrid build by cherry-picking the non-complex options from each tree?

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I wonder when they'll tell us exactly whats going on with threat.

*sigh* I liked how LotrO handled threat already. 'ease of threat management' has me quite worried, that it wont play an active role in what tanks do anymore.

I expect that threat will more or less be a non-issue with Helm's Deep. It will be incredibly easy to hold and very hard for DPS/Healing to pull it off the tank, or whoever is playing the meat-shield at the time. With so many classes getting "tanking" upgrades, that would be the safest way for them to implement it.

Granted, given Turbine's history with agro management, I could see this going horribly wrong and having agro management being impossible at launch.

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I would like to see them do something with taunts on PvP. Maybe like SWTOR where taunts can reduce the damage your opponent does to anyone but the person applying the taunt

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I don't play a tank, but from what I understand is tanks have a higher base threat than everybody, say 100% while other classes have maybe 50%. Guardian attacks will deal threat 100%*damage or whatever, while the other class will have threat equal to 50%*damage or heal. If that's the case, I'm not sure, but it seemed threat might be a passive skill now from what I heard. So yeah, EZ mode tanking.

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I would like to see them do something with taunts on PvP. Maybe like SWTOR where taunts can reduce the damage your opponent does to anyone but the person applying the taunt

I do like that in SWTOR - it actually makes tanks useful as tanks. Of course, so does having objective-based PvP in which a good tank-healer combo can be almost OP in the right hands, but that's a different discussion. :)

Regarding LOTRO, a kinmate a few years ago mentioned that he'd heard Turbine was considering giving taunts an effect in PvMP for RoI, but obviously that never materialized.

I don't play a tank, but from what I understand is tanks have a higher base threat than everybody, say 100% while other classes have maybe 50%. Guardian attacks will deal threat 100%*damage or whatever, while the other class will have threat equal to 50%*damage or heal. If that's the case, I'm not sure, but it seemed threat might be a passive skill now from what I heard. So yeah, EZ mode tanking.

The difference would have to be more than 2:1, at least for DPS compared to tanks. Before even this last round of stat inflation (pre-Rohan, I suppose), our DPS was doing 3-6x as much DPS as the tanks.

Possibly for heals as well, but I don't know what healers parse.

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The difference would have to be more than 2:1, at least for DPS compared to tanks. Before even this last round of stat inflation (pre-Rohan, I suppose), our DPS was doing 3-6x as much DPS as the tanks.

Possibly for heals as well, but I don't know what healers parse.

Oh yeah definitely. I was just giving an example with basic numbers for simplicity's sake lol.

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Well, remains to be seen how it's going to be like.

I'll have to test it to make any judgement.

On live, I've been running my main in sword/board OP. (I like it best, damn it!).

If I'm able to run like that with the revamps, I won't have any issues with the Guardian Revamp.

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I referenced wet noodles before. We might be getting care bears with HD since there is no second level difficulty with the content. So threat will not be an issue. It never really was unless a taunt such as challenge failed on more than one mob on a 4 to 5 pull. The resulting chase to get threat on the mob as he lagged by me was more challenging.

I played 2 guardians actively.

The things it was missing was a secondary role. How many dps guards out there?

Honestly though it would be nice if I could bring my guard to a raid that already has 2 tanks without being told to log on to a healer or dps toon. If guardians had a viable dps spec I may have been able to get more play time on a single toon rather than playing other ones. If the dps was good enough I would have never rolled a champ during ROI.

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I referenced wet noodles before. We might be getting care bears with HD since there is no second level difficulty with the content. So threat will not be an issue. It never really was unless a taunt such as challenge failed on more than one mob on a 4 to 5 pull. The resulting chase to get threat on the mob as he lagged by me was more challenging.

I played 2 guardians actively.

The things it was missing was a secondary role. How many dps guards out there?

Honestly though it would be nice if I could bring my guard to a raid that already has 2 tanks without being told to log on to a healer or dps toon. If guardians had a viable dps spec I may have been able to get more play time on a single toon rather than playing other ones. If the dps was good enough I would have never rolled a champ during ROI.

I now play DPS Guard most of the time.

It's been a loooong time since I grouped on my main. In Their Absence, I think, was the last cluster I did on him.

I think I have to keep changing between alts every now and then or I get burnout, and when I get burnout, I need a good 2-3 months away from LOTRO.

Trying to limit that, I swap between games.

Currently, I'm a bit burnt out on World of Tanks, hehe.

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I now play DPS Guard most of the time.

It's been a loooong time since I grouped on my main. In Their Absence, I think, was the last cluster I did on him.

I think I have to keep changing between alts every now and then or I get burnout, and when I get burnout, I need a good 2-3 months away from LOTRO.

Trying to limit that, I swap between games.

Currently, I'm a bit burnt out on World of Tanks, hehe.

My main in WOW was a warrior. When dual spec was finally introduced I was able to use fury as a secondary spec. I never got burned out for 2 reasons. Reason 1 was because it was fun to be able to switch back and forth from tanking and dpsing. Reason 2 was because we had plenty of content to run, over 15 5 mans and when WOTLK concluded 3 multi boss raids. Not to mention a decent pvp system. I made use of all 3 trait trees on just that toon alone.

Then when I got to Lotro I was tired of tanking. My main was a burg and I had a hunter alt. As always we had a mjor shortage of tanks as warden were deemed unusable and guardians were few and far between (somewhere around the end of ita and beginning of ROI. So I level a guardian. It was my main toon for ITA, ROI and Erebor. My 2 main alts were a warden and an RK. During ROI my dps toon was a champ until I was able to learn Draigoch and TOO.

I'm a tank by nature. Even when I was tanking Karazhan, Mount Hyjal, ICC hard mode I never got tired of it. When I first came into LOTRO I was afraid to tank. I felt like maybe I should do the circuit as a DPS until I got the hang of the game. When I realized 99% of the players are ok with you learning the process and figuring out how to tank as a guard I took it up right away.

I really enjoy tanking. Recently though dps champs have been doing the job and my guardian has been reduced to tanking raids only in some cases. I'd like to run spambrog too! lol

But yes I play other toons as well since there are only 2 spots for it in a raid. I have healed on an RK and used my burg for dps.

Come to find out I'm decent at healing, but I would have expected this since my alt in WOW was a resto shaman. At times I was able to solo heal some of the tougher content on that shaman. This included 4 ICC bosses and pretty much all of Naxx excluding the last 2 bosses. When I wanted to be known as a great tank I was known as the best shaman healer on my server.

But yeah what can I say I love to tank. I just hope I can find a game that needs me. Because Lotro probably won't.

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I don't play a tank, but from what I understand is tanks have a higher base threat than everybody, say 100% while other classes have maybe 50%. Guardian attacks will deal threat 100%*damage or whatever, while the other class will have threat equal to 50%*damage or heal. If that's the case, I'm not sure, but it seemed threat might be a passive skill now from what I heard. So yeah, EZ mode tanking.

That's currently not the case. As a tank, you have your damage threat, some purely tactical threat with damaging or non-damaging skills, a small threat modifier if traited or equipped with a good legendary belt and a threat copy. Force taunts have nothing to do with threat, they only capture a mob's attention for the duration of the taunt.

From the dev diaries, it looks like tanks are getting huge threat modifiers to ease threat management, to the point where there won't be a "threat tree" as there used to be a "threat trait line". Frankly it sucks. Balancing threat and resistance was what used to make the tanking fun, before the DPS went completely off the chart to the point where the full threat build became the cookie cutter build. I guess finding a balance was too difficult for brainless drones, so now threat will be EZmode (to compensate for the insane DPS levels since ToO), and a tank will be left without any choice. Unless you count sacrifice to buff the group as a real choice.

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From the dev diaries, it looks like tanks are getting huge threat modifiers to ease threat management, to the point where there won't be a "threat tree" as there used to be a "threat trait line". Frankly it sucks. Balancing threat and resistance was what used to make the tanking fun [...]

Yes.

What I think is going on here is that Turbine fundamentally misunderstands this: play fun comes from choice and observing the outcome of choice. You don't need many skills for that, in fact it is counterproductive, and in theory reducing the number of skills should improve play fun. However, if simplifying the set of skills and other choices leads to one way of doing things obviously being the right one fun is lost. There needs to be very complex tradeoffs for people to explore. That is what a game like this is about.

And don't say that going arcade will make financial sense. You won't get good money out of those people. They find a new twitcher games quickly and they don't have to spend money and they don't.

The people going deep in exploring choice and consequence are more likely to spend money, if nothing else because they are stuck in mine game they have mentally invested in and hence come under control of monetization measures that kick in after some play time.

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I would like to see them do something with taunts on PvP. Maybe like SWTOR where taunts can reduce the damage your opponent does to anyone but the person applying the taunt

^^^^THIS One of the few things ToR did right with PvP.

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I don't play a tank, but from what I understand is tanks have a higher base threat than everybody, say 100% while other classes have maybe 50%. Guardian attacks will deal threat 100%*damage or whatever, while the other class will have threat equal to 50%*damage or heal. If that's the case, I'm not sure, but it seemed threat might be a passive skill now from what I heard. So yeah, EZ mode tanking.

If it gets any easier than it is now it will be like WOW tanking during WOTLK.

Paladin- Avenger shield, consecrate spam, stand around until the mobs die.

Druid- Hit the swipe button hundreds of times over and over.

Warrior- Charge, thunder clap spam, sit around till the mobs die

Death Knight- I never tanked on one but similar to Paladin

At least during Burning Crusade I had to tab target as well as fire off skills to gain threat.

As it is now for guardians I can easily hold threat by doing the following:

Challenge, shield swipe, shield taunt, Shield swipe, retribution, WR, Shield taunt, etc.

I do not think tanking has to be made any easier than it is now. Especially when on my warden I can spam eob and hold threat.

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^^^^THIS One of the few things ToR did right with PvP.

Exactly what Warhammer Online had for years, AOE taunts reduced incoming damage for your whole group, single target taunts reduced incoming damage for yourself. That actually made taunts useful for more than just keeping aggro in pve.

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Yes.

What I think is going on here is that Turbine fundamentally misunderstands this: play fun comes from choice and observing the outcome of choice. You don't need many skills for that, in fact it is counterproductive, and in theory reducing the number of skills should improve play fun. However, if simplifying the set of skills and other choices leads to one way of doing things obviously being the right one fun is lost. There needs to be very complex tradeoffs for people to explore. That is what a game like this is about.

And don't say that going arcade will make financial sense. You won't get good money out of those people. They find a new twitcher games quickly and they don't have to spend money and they don't.

The people going deep in exploring choice and consequence are more likely to spend money, if nothing else because they are stuck in mine game they have mentally invested in and hence come under control of monetization measures that kick in after some play time.

Turbine made Lotro in a way that you click, click to get stuff. Same as molyneux cube, cow-clickers and other brain-dead games that earned truckloads of money - just out of people that sit and fu***n sit and mindlessly clicked to get "reward" (points, pixels, xp, etc).

I know it sucks for you and that it is not what Lotro was (well all mmorpg's and games are to some extent, but you know what I mean), but well present is present and past is in past and not coming back for Lotro.

Shame I lost an article that explain medical and behavioral theory used by many of modern mmo, mmorpg's and facebook / browser games.

It is connected to this phenomenons:

http://en.wikipedia....mulation_reward

http://en.wikipedia....ioral_addiction

When you feel you get a boon / "reward" even if those are pixels you got without effort, your brain reward you by releasing chemicals that work similarly to drugs like coccaine. Then you naturally want more of this. Game creators realized that and that is why you see more and more games that are about repeating very simple, short and easy task in order to have a chance of getting something perceived as substantial reward (i.e. rare loot from Lockbox) or small guaranteed reward every time you do it (some kind of token or point each time you complete certain action).

Putting complex, long activities that require brains - getting ready, devising strategy, creating builds, cooperation, substantial chance of failure, etc is counter-productive from game creator point of view when you have goal I descirbed above. Fast, short, non-complicated, greatly streamlined task is what is better. To keep that players in compulsive clicking.

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From what I heard, threat generation was broken in beta 2, which is closing soon anyway. If anyone can give fresh news when beta 3 reopens (especially on threat), I will read them with pleasure.

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