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cossieuk

Developer Diary : Minstrel Class Changes in Helm’s Deep

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I'd get into the whole 'rape vs meaning' thing, but it would likely just span a few pages of people thinking it can only mean one thing and me continually trying to point out meaning varies. Though I will say this: look at the meaning of the word.

I do not think it is about the meaning of the word past, present or future,but the act of rape in relation to a person forcing another person to perfrom acts that they do not want to partake in and how we need to change the attitudes of some people who use the word knowing it's association to those acts, who like to use the word to describe either their or someone elses success in a video game.

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I do not think it is about the meaning of the word past, present or future,but the act of rape in relation to a person forcing another person to perfrom acts that they do not want to partake in and how we need to change the attitudes of some people who use the word knowing it's association to those acts, who like to use the word to describe either their or someone elses success in a video game.

 

It can also mean mustard plants. Just because a word is used to describe a horrific act, does not mean that act has the monopoly on its use.

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It can also mean mustard plants. Just because a word is used to describe a horrific act, does not mean that act has the monopoly on its use.

Yes i am well aware of that we used to play in rapeseed fields as children ... though sadly they are now housing estates. But as i said it's the meaning as associated with forced acts in relation to gaming. Nobody is using that word and thinking of yellow fields you used to play hide and seek in when used as Wosret put it so eloquently "No more Moors raping War-Speech Minstrels"

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Yes i am well aware of that we used to play in rapeseed fields as children ... though sadly they are now housing estates. But as i said it's the meaning as associated with forced acts in relation to gaming. Nobody is using that word and thinking of yellow fields you used to play hide and seek in when used as Wosret put it so eloquently "No more Moors raping War-Speech Minstrels"

 

You know what they say: when you build a house on rapeseed fields, your mustard will be forever haunted.

 

I wasn't particularly meaning they meant yellow fields (that's just an impossible to defend idea). What I'm suggesting is that words only mean what you want them to mean, really. For example, I play a game called Chivalry. When you are attacked by multiple people and have no hope of a proper defence, you've been 'ganged'. It's a shortened version of 'gang raped'. But does the word 'ganged' cause issue with you, despite you now knowing what people are associating with that word?

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You know what they say: when you build a house on rapeseed fields, your mustard will be forever haunted.

 

I wasn't particularly meaning they meant yellow fields (that's just an impossible to defend idea). What I'm suggesting is that words only mean what you want them to mean, really. For example, I play a game called Chivalry. When you are attacked by multiple people and have no hope of a proper defence, you've been 'ganged'. It's a shortened version of 'gang raped'. But does the word 'ganged' cause issue with you, despite you now knowing what people are associating with that word?

I'm not familiar with the word ganged as being associated with gang rape so no in that case i wouldn't have had issue with it. However i would now have an issue with those that used the word in a context that implied it was a positive action and i would feel that way regardless of my personal experiance. thankfully most games have an ignore function which i do use but surely it is better to change attitudes than to ignore people.

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I'm not familiar with the word ganged as being associated with gang rape so no in that case i wouldn't have had issue with it. However i would now have an issue with those that used the word in a context that implied it was a positive action and i would feel that way regardless of my personal experiance. thankfully most games have an ignore function which i do use but surely it is better to change attitudes than to ignore people.

 

And yet 'raped', in terms of PvP, is synonymous with obliterated, destroyed or 'owned' (pwned, in some cases). So even 'ganged' is just the same thing but with a group of people. At no point do they actually mean 'raped' in the sense you mean. Which is what I mean when I say the meaning of the word depends on who reads it. You see it as meaning an actual, real-life incident. Gamers see it as having their ass handed to them.

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And yet 'raped', in terms of PvP, is synonymous with obliterated, destroyed or 'owned' (pwned, in some cases). 

It's hard to take that sentence seriously. Certain words are emotional triggers for people--on a much larger scale than say...a bunch of pubescent morons slashing away in a PvP arena of an MMO.  Helcawen's reaction to the word was an emotional one, but justified.  

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It's hard to take that sentence seriously. Certain words are emotional triggers for people--on a much larger scale than say...a bunch of pubescent morons slashing away in a PvP arena of an MMO.  Helcawen's reaction to the word was an emotional one, but justified.  

 

You would say that, you're one of the triggered!

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You would say that, you're one of the triggered!

Yep, guilty as charged.  And you can come across as insensitive prick.  Now that we all know our roles, can we just move on?

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Yep, guilty as charged.  And you can come across as insensitive prick.  Now that we all know our roles, can we just move on?

 

Calm down, dear. Just explaining how words don't always mean what you think they mean.

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I'm pretty sure Helcawen doesn't require you to "explain" that to her.  Which brings me back to the insensitive prick part.  You actually thought it was necessary to argue with a rape victim that she shouldn't be offended by the use of the word rape simply because a group of people use the word in a slightly different context in an online game.  Next you'll be telling her to just "let it go".  And for the record, I'm the epitome of calm.

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Calm down, dear. Just explaining how words don't always mean what you think they mean.

 

While this is true, it is rediculous to apply it to the word in question. Can you imagine yourself in a vunerable position where someone threatens to rape you? How would that make you feel? Would you call the police? I know i would, and how do you think the authourities are going to react when the offender comes out with - words don't always mean what you think they mean. Everyone knows what the word implies and to cover it up and pretend otherwise is an insult to yours and others intelliegence. Rather than trying to justify yours and others use of it Doro why not stop and think how it may affect others. Instead why not try to educate others in why they shouldn't use the word.

 

Edit: For the record i will be bringing up this as a discussion topic at my next meeting and would like to use this thread as reference for some discussion points. If anyone has issue with this please let me know via pm and i will blank out your posts.

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While this is true, it is rediculous to apply it to the word in question. Can you imagine yourself in a vunerable position where someone threatens to rape you? How would that make you feel? Would you call the police? I know i would, and how do you think the authourities are going to react when the offender comes out with - words don't always mean what you think they mean. Everyone knows what the word implies and to cover it up and pretend otherwise is an insult to yours and others intelliegence. Rather than trying to justify yours and others use of it Doro why not stop and think how it may affect others. Instead why not try to educate others in why they shouldn't use the word.

 

I did have it once... it was just before a fight and I think the guy just panicked and said the first thing that came to mind. I was more confused than anything. I don't deal with police and if I feel someone has wronged me I deal with it myself.

 

But you're applying it to an entirely different situation. It's the context that matters. Threatening to rape someone and using the word rape in reference to PvP is entirely different. You should obviously be aware of that.

 

As bucko has said, I'm insensitive. I don't care how my words affect others, because I don't care about how they feel. And I do not believe there are words people shouldn't use. Ever. Hurt feelings mean much less to me than freedom of words.

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I can't agree with calling someone vile for using the word rape - especially if that word is very widespread in a community.

 

Exactly this.

 

The word rape is used on so many occasions in gaming world that people who suddenly feel offended by it either pretend to haven never seen it beeing used in gaming or are just not gamers and obviously the latter is not the case.

 

In gaming the word rape can mean many things so stop acting like this word has just one meaning in gaming. Basically when someone say he will rape you in game, he means he will defeat you without a sweat etc. Or when you say that creeps were raped by freeps obviously it doesn't mean that freeps abused creeps sexually. I'm sure that people where who are so upset by what Worset wrote, know this very well, they just pretend like they never saw the word rape beeing used in many contexts in gaming world.

 

I start to feel like this place becomes an OF as well. Basically we will have to cease to post anything soon as some people are too sensitive and only things they agree with can be posted.

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I did have it once... it was just before a fight and I think the guy just panicked and said the first thing that came to mind. I was more confused than anything. I don't deal with police and if I feel someone has wronged me I deal with it myself.

 

Well Doro all i can say is i wish i had the emotional and mental strength to shrug off such things. Most men and woman i have spoken to who have been the subjects of a sexual attack would not say the same. Once again i invite you to come and skype a conversation with my support group to explain in person how rape doesnt mean rape regardless of context.

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Just because a word is widely used dosent make it right.  It is often used by people with little maturity and they need to grow up

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Well Doro all i can say is i wish i had the emotional and mental strength to shrug off such things. Most men and woman i have spoken to who have been the subjects of a sexual attack would not say the same. Once again i invite you to come and skype a conversation with my support group to explain in person how rape doesnt mean rape regardless of context.

 

I didn't say it doesn't mean rape regardless of context. I said the exact opposite. Context is required.

 

Support groups depend on the person. Some feel better with other people. I, personally, would find it self-defeating. If something happens to me, I am not a victim in my own mind. For lack of an undramatic phrase, I'm just the person who hasn't gotten even yet.

 

I'll try with my own example. When I was younger, I was stabbed on a cycle track by a group of hoodies. Now I don't hold any grudge against the kid who did it because I've long since balanced that. But I won't stop people mentioning the words 'knife', 'stabbed', 'mugged', 'hoodie' or anything else I could possibly associate with it.

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Just because a word is widely used dosent make it right.  It is often used by people with little maturity and they need to grow up

 

I am a grown up and in gaming in certain situation i would use a word rape and people would not have a problem with it as they completely understand in what context it was used.

 

This one particular word is so wide spread in gaming world that i am actually very surprised to see some people here beeing so much hurt by this.

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I am a grown up and in gaming in certain situation i would use a word rape and people would not have a problem with it as they completely understand in what context it was used.

 

This one particular word is so wide spread in gaming world that i am actually very surprised to see some people here beeing so much hurt by this.

 

Maybe you need to learn to read better then, because it's obvious why the use of the word is upsetting to Helcawen.

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Maybe you need to learn to read better then, because it's obvious why the use of the word is upsetting to Helcawen.

 

Maybe.

 

But i did read what Helcawen posted and still stand by what i wrote.

 

This particular word is so wide spread in gaming that it's context in games, never means beeing abused sexually etc.

 

EDIT: after giving a bit more thought, maybe i don't have a bproblem with this word beeing used so much as for a not a native english speaker it doesn't "sound" so bad. I know the meaning of it but it's just not an issue for me. But i thought that if i was in an environment of gamers that are gamers from Poland and if we used the word "gwałcić" (to rape) it would be at least strange ( never played with other polish players in any game so i can't say if they use this word in polish but i would assume they are not. There are just other words that  think would be used on such occasions).

 

But in the end it comes down to me never getting offened by anything said to me in virtual world, regardless of the language used. It's just beyond my understanding, how can someone feel insulted by anything said on the internet or within games by an anon person.

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Edit: For the record i will be bringing up this as a discussion topic at my next meeting and would like to use this thread as reference for some discussion points. If anyone has issue with this please let me know via pm and i will blank out your posts.

If you want to discuss it with your support group, let me give you my opinion on the topic.

I don't use the word for gaming, and never did. I heard it several time in PvP over vent, and grew tired of it. As a dude in a mostly male gaming environment, I didn't really care at first as it had for me as much weight as being called fat or short by people who never saw me even in picture. But I don't want to get accustomed to this language as it really does belittle the real act which is abject (my best approximation is that it is probably not far from torture). And as we can see here today, it does elicit very strong reactions from survivors, when a better choice of words would not hurt anyone. So now, whenever someone in a PUG use that word, I ask them to stop, and if they don't I simply drop group.

Helcawen, I wish you all the best for the future.

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As bucko has said, I'm insensitive. I don't care how my words affect others, because I don't care about how they feel. And I do not believe there are words people shouldn't use. Ever. Hurt feelings mean much less to me than freedom of words.

Well, at least you own up to it, good on ya.  But lets save the whole freedom of words/speech that gets thrown around a bit on here for when it actually applies (and hopefully those of us on this forum will never have to).  This is more of a case of "but Mommy, all the cool kids in LOTRO are using "rape" and "gay" that way so why can't I?"

 

After all, there is a vast difference in an adult who is young at heart and an adult who is immature.

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Well, at least you own up to it, good on ya.  But lets save the whole freedom of words/speech that gets thrown around a bit on here for when it actually applies (and hopefully those of us on this forum will never have to).  This is more of a case of "but Mommy, all the cool kids in LOTRO are using "rape" and "gay" that way so why can't I?"

 

After all, there is a vast difference in an adult who is young at heart and an adult who is immature.

 

In this case, it's you playing 'mommy' (Freudian analogy, perhaps?). Not sure why you think you have any power over what we can and can't say, though.

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In this case, it's you playing 'mommy' (Freudian analogy, perhaps?). Not sure why you think you have any power over what we can and can't say, though.

Well, at least you are consistent with your authority issues.  This goes back to the whole c**t argument.  No one is exerting any power over anyone here.  Well, except for you...you are basically telling someone they should consider the context about a given word before they react to it.  You're telling them how they should feel or not feel, simply because you don't react the same way.

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Well, at least you are consistent with your authority issues.  This goes back to the whole c**t argument.  No one is exerting any power over anyone here.  Well, except for you...you are basically telling someone they should consider the context about a given word before they react to it.  You're telling them how they should feel or not feel, simply because you don't react the same way.

 

Yet your analogy implied a level of power over what can and can't be said. Implying that we are complaining we are being stopped from saying what we like by 'mommy'.

 

But yeah, I am telling people to consider context before reacting, or you end up with a blind emotional reaction. However, I am not telling them how they should feel afterwards.

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