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Thread: Player Council 2014: lessons to learn from 2013


Leafblade
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It would be possible to have a council without (ab)using them as a focus group. Then you don't have to show them any confidential stuff, and they can still channel and express feedback from the player base on existing things. As a result, no NDA required and they can report to and talk to the players, moving a player council a big step closer to representing the player base.

Just saying.

 

The problem with this is that Turbine would then have no control over them

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I even got an infraction for the last post in that thread :D

 

Seems to me Sap is getting a bit touchy with people criticising the PC. 

 

You got to be kidding me. You got an infraction for that:

 

quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Maxal viewpost-right.png
Allowing players the opportunity to actually visit the company and have face to face open discussions on new content, future plans and seeing what the DEVs are working on is unheard of in the gaming world. What other company allows this type of access? I really do not know but if they are out there please point it out for me and others here.
 

Show us the evidence and I'll believe you smile.png Otherwise it's just your opinion, PC member or not.

 

?????

FFS, Heaton is really a total moron. Maybe I should have applied to the PC just to be able to visit Turbine and tell that guy face to face what I think of him. I'd be interested to see how fast he shrinks to nothingness when not giving out infractions and bans from behind the safety of his computer but facing a real adult person.

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That's not quite true - I got TWO (minor) infractions for breaking section 8 of the community guidelines (8. Provoking Trolling & Baiting) in that thread

 

The first was for this - https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?535849-Player-Council-2014-lessons-to-learn-from-2013&p=7047293#post7047293

 

and then the 2nd for: - https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?535849-Player-Council-2014-lessons-to-learn-from-2013&p=7047801#post7047801

 

If Turbine are that defensive about seeing criticism of the PC on their forum then that's all the evidence that I need to know that the PC is itself just a crock of shite.

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I've been on his list for a while though I've been careful not to give him any justification. I would appeal but I really cannot be bothered wasting the fraction of a calorie in energy typing out the ticket.

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If he did not carry himself in such a generally condescending manner to begin with, I'd feel sorry for Sapience.  His problem is that the quality of the product he's representing is in decline.  You can't fix that or keep the criticism at bay by lashing out at minor infractions and any criticism of your product.  The answer is to make a better product.  He's made himself part of the problem now.  He's in quicksand.  The harder he fights, the deeper he sinks.  Unfortunately, when you're in a situation like that, it's difficult to recognize it.

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It's my view that those members such as Dark Cntry, Maxal etc are just there for the ego trip & a chance to get in with Turbine and so lack any credibility, though there are some who are attempting to engage with the players - Runesi_EU, Zume (who put up that survey) and hopefully those on this forum. But we'll see.

I completely agree with that. Whenever council bashing happens, I do feel bad for those in it who do seem to actually be trying to help.

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If he did not carry himself in such a generally condescending manner to begin with, I'd feel sorry for Sapience.  His problem is that the quality of the product he's representing is in decline.  You can't fix that or keep the criticism at bay by lashing out at minor infractions and any criticism of your product.  The answer is to make a better product.  He's made himself part of the problem now.  He's in quicksand.  The harder he fights, the deeper he sinks.  Unfortunately, when you're in a situation like that, it's difficult to recognize it.

 

And this latest round of infractions comes after the company-wide meetings and "no 2014 expansion announcement" - someone might be seeing his empire on the verge of crumbling into nothingness "Soon".

 

Also, welcome Glumposneak.  I remember you from the HD Beta.

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I've just read Glumpo's posts (missed them on first pass, really sorry).

I can't believe that he got an infraction for a well written and polite post.

I doubt writing to WB will change anything though, sadly.

I believe in Karma though, Rick will get what he deserves someday. What goes around comes around.

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And this latest round of infractions comes after the company-wide meetings and "no 2014 expansion announcement" - someone might be seeing his empire on the verge of crumbling into nothingness "Soon".

Maybe the got told that WB will do a major review of the state of the game and its surroundings in the next weeks.

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As I have no desire to remain on that forum with such an unwelcoming attitude by Turbine, I have posted the following.

 

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?503186-Dev-team-Why-is-level-2-of-angry-birds-amp-cut-the-rope-more-dificult-than-solo-play&p=7048368#post7048368

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I don't understand your point, especially since you're pulling up a thread 9 months old and replying to it.

1. Turbine hasn't silenced negative voices - if so, I wouldn't have posts left. That doesn't mean they agreed with us.


Actually they are pretty well doing exactly that, handing out infractions and accusing people of trolling who give opinions that don't agree with theirs.

I got a 2 point infraction for this post

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7047269#post7047269

And was told,
 

Dear Glumposneak,

You have received an infraction at The Lord of the Rings Online™ Forums.

Reason: 8. Provoking, Trolling, and “baiting.” (Moderate) Threads or posts that are intended to create a strong negative or emotional reaction, provoke conflict, or are made simply for ‘shock value’ are considered trolling. Debating a topic on the merits or holding a strong opinion are acceptable, however making posts to provoke conflict or incite, bait, or mock others who disagree with you are not.
-------

-------

This infraction is worth 2 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

Original Post:
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7047269


And the Lortrocomunity forum is full of posters who have been banned for simply giving their opinion on here.

I expect this will result in another infraction or ban from me, but to be honest, there is so much censorship on here, so many of my posts have simply disappeared from this forum over the past few months, that I have little desire to post here anyway.

I responded to Sapience stating the following
 

As all I've given is my opinion, and I've been very polite in the process, how have I broken any rules, please show me where I am trolling?

If this infraction is not removed within a couple of days, I will be forwarding it along with an accompanying letter complaining of your heavy handed moderation to WB head office

I don't like the players council, I don't see the need, I don't see they are doing the game any good, that is not trolling, that is my (and others) opinion.

If you like, we can all leave and go and join that other site where we are free to talk?

It seems if people say anything you don't agree with, you don't have the knowledge to deal with it in a level headed way, instead you hover over the ban/infraction button.

With the greatest of respect, a community manager you are not, you lack very very simple polite communication skills to deal with anyone that disagrees with you and all you are doing is driving people away to other forums, one in particular, and you are making a bad situation for Lotro much worse. You drive me away, instead of being polite and rational on your forum that you moderate, I will say exactly what I think on that other forum where I don't have to watch what I say.

Do you really think you handing out infractions and bans to long term players who love (or loved) this game is really helping Turbine?

Just in case you are not sure, it isn't

I'm already struggling to stay playing this game, your actions are likely to drive me away completely.

I've copied your PM and this reply to forward to WB head office as part of my complaint.

I wrote to WB head office about your actions in Jan 2012, and I am about to do the same unless I get an apology and my infraction removed.

Have a great Christmas

Best


Of course me posting this is breaking forum rules and it will get deleted, but hopefully a few people get to read it first and see how heavy handed his moderation is.

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Wow...Damojo, Manstan, Holdumdown...others... there's a lot of Turbine Trolls waiting to crawl out from their cave and cook some Free Peoples in the official forum cauldron.

 

Wonder how many of them will receive 'minor infractions' for laughing at a poster and calling them a necro.  

 

Not sure what you'll accomplish by posting your infraction bit over there though, Glumpo.  Probably better to post it on Massively and some other sites (in more abbreviated fashion for the short attention spans) where it is beyond the reach of Sapience's de-'leet' abilities.


Most of the thread just got deleted.

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As I have no desire to remain on that forum with such an unwelcoming attitude by Turbine, I have posted the following.

 

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?503186-Dev-team-Why-is-level-2-of-angry-birds-amp-cut-the-rope-more-dificult-than-solo-play&p=7048368#post7048368

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Actually they are pretty well doing exactly that, handing out infractions and accusing people of trolling who give opinions that don't agree with theirs.

I got a 2 point infraction for this post

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7047269#post7047269

And was told,

 

And the Lortrocomunity forum is full of posters who have been banned for simply giving their opinion on here.

I expect this will result in another infraction or ban from me, but to be honest, there is so much censorship on here, so many of my posts have simply disappeared from this forum over the past few months, that I have little desire to post here anyway.

I responded to Sapience stating the following

 

Of course me posting this is breaking forum rules and it will get deleted, but hopefully a few people get to read it first and see how heavy handed his moderation is.

Good luck to you Glumpo, I was perma banned a few weeks back for constant trolling and baiting apparently, strange given I only had 3 infractions and one of those for using the term FUBAR, another was for a post aimed at sapience in beta, the third was for when sapience called out fred and i commented on him breaking the nda by revealing discussions from beta. So I dont know where this constant baiting/trolling thing came from but it matters not as I had just sent a ticket to delete my account anyway when it came through.

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Actually they are pretty well doing exactly that, handing out infractions and accusing people of trolling who give opinions that don't agree with theirs.

And the Lortrocomunity forum is full of posters who have been banned for simply giving their opinion on here.

You don't even have to give opinions. I was banned for asking about the Tolkien license extension when no clear answer was given. The infraction points that that piled on top of came from posting the math on how powerful exactly the Überpotions are, an "advantage not convenience" item that was in f2p from day one.

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You don't even have to give opinions. I was banned for asking about the Tolkien license extension when no clear answer was given. The infraction points that that piled on top of came from posting the math on how powerful exactly the Überpotions are, an "advantage not convenience" item that was in f2p from day one.

 

So you were one of the people who tested the ueberpotions back when we were accused of whining but not testing, eh? :)

 

And you received infractions for it?  Wow - math and facts are infractable things.

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So you were one of the people who tested the ueberpotions back when we were accused of whining but not testing, eh? :)

 

And you received infractions for it?  Wow - math and facts are infractable things.

Right. I cannot give you an exact list but my 10 infraction points for the ban were 4-5 or so in 2010 for the potions (including multipe infractions for the same post), 1 or 2 for legitimate clashes with the fanbois or reopening threads of something in between, and then a barrage for the Tolkien license inquiry that piled up over time with me not posting in between as more and more points were assigned to existing posts.

Of course I can't be exact since the email forwarding of pms is broken and I can't log in to read my pms.

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Right. I cannot give you an exact list but my 10 infraction points for the ban were 4-5 or so in 2010 for the potions (including multipe infractions for the same post), 1 or 2 for legitimate clashes with the fanbois or reopening threads of something in between, and then a barrage for the Tolkien license inquiry that piled up over time with me not posting in between as more and more points were assigned to existing posts.

Of course I can't be exact since the email forwarding of pms is broken and I can't log in to read my pms.

 

That's crazy.

 

To steal a line from Stephen Colbert, "Facts have a well-known anti-Sapience bias."

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That's crazy.

 

To steal a line from Stephen Colbert, "Facts have a well-known anti-Sapience bias."

Actually I think I posted a list of infractions I had on this forum before licensegate. I might be able to make a more precise statement.

In any case, what makes me ROFL is how people seriously state (and tell others) that the license has definitely been extended based on what Sapience said. Makes you lose faith in humanity :)

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Actually I think I posted a list of infractions I had on this forum before licensegate. I might be able to make a more precise statement.

In any case, what makes me ROFL is how people seriously state (and tell others) that the license has definitely been extended based on what Sapience said. Makes you lose faith in humanity :)

Haha yeah that always makes me laugh and cringe as well, since "plan to" and "intend to" seem to be stone wall fact when turbine say those things to some people, hey I plan to and intend to drive to work and back everyday without a crash or accident but that doesnt mean some moron isnt going to pull out at a junction without looking does it?

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This is the one thing I think the Player Council needs to improve on most:

 

"From time to time, be asked to help draft a report on the council's activities for publication to the entire community."

 

If Turbine hasn't been asking anyone to draft these reports, council members should have been demanding to be asked! In fact, I think player council members should publicly resign in protest after not being asked to do this even once in the past 8 months.

 

Even if you think you could continue to do some good by working on the inside, the continued lack of communication is eroding players' confidence in the council, in Turbine, and in the future direction of the game.

 

Even if it was just fluff or incredibly vague teasers, a monthly (or even quarterly!) report of council activities doesn't seem like that much to ask.

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It's really absurd.  You're right, Fredelas.  That should have been done.  But if Turbine was interested in a working, collaborative communication with the playerbase, they would do the login surveys.  They would start discussions on certain topics (class/game-feature/direction), peruse responses, pick out likely candidates that show themselves to have something to offer, and invite them into more exclusive feedback discussions.  The focus group that is the PC is a glorified PR session.  They handpicked some of the most arrogant, condescending people they possibly could have for the council...and while Sapience might have indeed seen a few likely candidates to be his Sith apprentices, it should not have made sense to Turbine to pick these individuals.  It just all goes back to my overarching conclusion about Turbine: They're dysfunctional.  That fatal flaw leads to them doing one thing after another that either doesn't make sense or is done poorly and it permeates throughout their entire operation.

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Some of the most knowledgeable and experienced captain class posters I saw and felt presented well-reasoned arguments over the past few years were NOT a part of the 'council'.  They needed a streamlined but 'greater' delving for information, not lesser.  What are they doing now?  Shrinking the council.  The focus group gets even smaller.  Perhaps that accurately reflects the playerbase, I dunno.  But the conflicting 'forums are an insignifcant percentage of the players-we saw enough threads on the forums to justify the streamlining of classes' message from Sapience was all I needed to see that their 'data mining operation' was hurting, either in the gathering or the interpretation processes...likely both.

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what good is a "player council" that doesn't even share any of their experiences or is allowed to discuss ideas with the rest of the community because "turbine told them not to"?

 

why hire players to get feedback they could have found in the 'suggestion' section of their forum as well?

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