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LasraelLarson

Neverwinter Online Trouncing Dungeons & Dragons Online via Steam

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drawing some eyes in this general direction, because i wonder in a genre that is allowed to have a direct competitor, does the competition actually improve things?

 

here are the steam pages for comparison:

 

Dungeons & Dragons Online

 

Vs.

 

Neverwinter Online

 

as you can see, Neverwinter is outperforming DDO by a considerable magnitude.  whilst being less than 3 months of activity for Neverwinter & almost 2 years for DDO;  Neverwinter has clearly made a larger impact than DDO ever managed.

 

so does DDO benefit from the competition?

 

i'd be interested in hearing from DDO players, how this has impacted things at Turbines DDO.  for better?  or worse?  or not at all?

 

did Turbine even attempt to step up their game?  or did they shirk at the first sign of a Challenger?

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It would be hard to say how much of the DDO base is established through steam, compared to NW. But even so, it would be hard to imagine DDOs total unique logins overall coming anywhere close to the steam NW numbers. I'm curious if Lotro total numbers are in the same order of magnitude.

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Lotros numbers have always been higher than DDOs

 

when DDO ftp launched, they were marketing a dramatic increase in users.  but dramatic increase from basically nothing isn't really significant.

 

anyway, given the sameness of genre for both DDO & Neverwinter; i do genuinely wonder what the impact of direct competition has had?

 

i know we have some posters here who actually play DDO.  curious to see if they have noticed anything perceptible.

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hmmm...

 

maybe i was wrong in assessing this as direct competition, simply because of the sameness in genre.

 

what this is more akin to, is someone stealing someone else's lunch money & giving them a wedgie that needs to be surgically removed.

 

calling it a competition in that light seems unfair.

 

Dungeons & Dragons Online really isn't competition.

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Neverwinter's Foundry system is not bad - some excellent user made content. When I've played it there has been a huge amount of activity on it's global channel. People dismiss the game too quickly because of the controls.

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Neverwinter's Foundry system is not bad - some excellent user made content. When I've played it there has been a huge amount of activity on it's global channel. People dismiss the game too quickly because of the controls.

 

I tried playing Neverwinter recently.  I have to say I found it interesting but seemed to not be very challenging.  Granted lower levels are not reflective of later stages but I just couldn't get into it very much yet.  Stuff dies too fast! lol  I do really like the big, sprawling feel to it though and also the way the quests seem laid out.  I have not deleted it yet, hehe - so I may continue with it later.

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OK time to revisit this puppy.

Neverwinter is still trouncing Dungeons and Dragons Online on STEAM:

basic Neverwinter  free to play game on STEAM.

Enhanced Neverwinter  $22.79 edition on STEAM.

Platinum Neverwinter  $59.49 on STEAM.

 

Vs.  free to play D&D Online

 

both Neverwinter & Dungeons and Dragons Online utilize the proprietary D & D license (originally from Hazbro & huge lawsuit details there as well) to make their prospective games.  so the FTP version absolutely kills, but it is also quite normal to see the actual paid version hit better numbers.

i am not saying i would ever play Neverwinter, but if it came down to picking the lesser of 2 evils... in a heartbeat i would play Neverwinter over DDO.

 

so unlike LotRO currently; DDO actually has a market competitor.

by 2021, or 2022...  that may change...   http://www.athlongames.com/athlon-games-partners-with-middle-earth-enterprises/

but one wonders if these titles will go head to head?  or is Zaentz winding down LotRO to transition?

regardless Neverwinter is smacking DDO down like a little bitch.

 

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8 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

What version of D&D is Neverwinter based off of?

there are versions?


an aside...  the December 8 2000 DUNGEONS & DRAGONS MOVIE had a $45 million production budget & grossed $15,220,685 domestically & $18,586,724 internationally for a grand total of $33,807,409.

 $33,807,409

-$45,000,000 = a net loss of...

-$11,192,591...

in spite of that market failure Paramount is taking another shot and it is expected to release November 19 2021.

SOURCE

 

 

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6 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:

there are versions?

Yeah, there's around two dozen different D&D "settings" that give a different flavour, like Planescape (I think that one is about multi-dimensions), Spelljammer (fantasy in space), Ravenloft (gothic horror, I think), and Forgotten Realms. The latter is what Neverwinter is set in, along with Icewind Dale, which is one of my all-time favourite iso games.

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IIRC DDO is 3.5e, Neverwinter is 4e (loosely, in both cases). Neverwinter plays more like modern WoW with all the smash button flashy skills win win give me muh lewtz, whereas DDO plays more like LOTRO with an equally shitty engine and equally shitty customer service.  They're both terrible games IMHO, but Neverwinter is the lesser of two evils, which is why it has more players.

4 hours ago, Doro said:

Yeah, there's around two dozen different D&D "settings" that give a different flavour, like Planescape (I think that one is about multi-dimensions), Spelljammer (fantasy in space), Ravenloft (gothic horror, I think), and Forgotten Realms. The latter is what Neverwinter is set in, along with Icewind Dale, which is one of my all-time favourite iso games.

 

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7 hours ago, Doro said:

Icewind Dale, which is one of my all-time favourite iso games.

now that is a name i have heard before, not because i am familiar with, but for whatever reason, "Icewind Dale" gets mentioned enough in passing that it has permeated to a greater degree...  though not as much as "Morrowwind".

my Dungeons & Dragons knowledge is spotty at best, but i had assumed it was the whole board game w/ Dungeon Master Culture & someone (or someones) got round to turning that into a novel or novels & that whatever that was is source material...  but beyond "Icewind Dale" i wouldn't recognize any of those names you mentioned, or have a single clue what book, or who wrote, etc.

and if there are IP limitations, which from the big lawsuits back in 2009, i had assumed there were...  the scope of game that could be created, would be just as limited as a LotRO game...  which in the case of the latter, Zaentz seems to have a rubber stamp clause attitude about & protecting the IP and is more pretense than substance.

but if movie audiences are any indicator...  LotRO is clearly more popular (& a money maker) Vs. DDO with a much smaller audience (which lost money.)

3 hours ago, psalm8818 said:

whereas DDO plays more like LOTRO with an equally shitty engine

no kidding!  & apparently DDO has a dodge function (possibly aim as well?)

i can just imagine how absolutely crap that experience is on the old ass Turbine Engine & Client that was created in the late 1990's & has been patched over the years (direct X 9) to what it is today.  SOURCE

the engine & client functioned well under realities of early 2000's, but "has been" showing its age since about 2010. if ever you were looking for an example of "spaghetti code"...   look no further than the Turbine Game Engine & Client.

in 2019 and beyond, anything existing on said code, or developed with...  is freeware.

the fact they still charge anything is almost criminal, but i suppose if you want to pay,  you may just be...   criminally stupid.  🤡😉

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10 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:

no kidding!  & apparently DDO has a dodge function (possibly aim as well?)

i can just imagine how absolutely crap that experience is on the old ass Turbine Engine & Client that was created in the late 1990's & has been patched over the years (direct X 9) to what it is today.  SOURCE

the engine & client functioned well under realities of early 2000's, but "has been" showing its age since about 2010. if ever you were looking for an example of "spaghetti code"...   look no further than the Turbine Game Engine & Client.

in 2019 and beyond, anything existing on said code, or developed with...  is freeware.

the fact they still charge anything is almost criminal, but i suppose if you want to pay,  you may just be...   criminally stupid.  🤡😉

Having actually played DDO a bit a while ago, it actually works rather well with the engine... more so than LotRO ever did.  The big thing is that DDO is an instanced MMO, which helps a ton with keeping things in check.  That and it's been a loooong time since I've logged in.

However, DDO is probably the most pure D&D translation I've seen in a long time, as it's the 3.5E system in MMO form with some elements of 4E bled in.  I don't know how epic levels worked, but it did allow you to reroll the char as a way to provide advancement as the reroll gave you a feat and allowed DDO to better reuse its instances... something LotRO failed at doing miserably.  The freedom to multiclass worked well in that implementation, as there was a lot of depth in how you built your char... which means it's pretty easy to make a non-viable character if you aren't building somewhat sanely.

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8 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

it's the 3.5E system in MMO form with some elements of 4E bled in.

no idea what that means.

8 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Having actually played DDO a bit a while ago, it actually works rather well with the engine... more so than LotRO ever did.  The big thing is that DDO is an instanced MMO, which helps a ton with keeping things in check.

yeah that instancing & lobbies may help with some issues, but DDO still lags like a bitch. & it is old looking. the animations are exactly as stiff as LOtRO's.

when it comes to combat , both are tab targeting and the only "aim" skill Lotro has is the RK stone at max (5) trait rank. Lotro does not have "dodge" rolling but DDO does...  i wonder if they also have "dash" as an evasion mechanic?  regardless the more punchy action oriented the combat...  the more infuriating the lag becomes.

& if there is a weapon swap mechanic as well?  yikes!  add the lag issues with calculation buffs & debuffs & swapping configuration trees...  both these games are showing their age.

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6 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:

no idea what that means.

There's been various versions of the D&D rules set over the year, as AD&D (Advanced Dungeons and Dragons) is considered 2.0, and then there was a 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, and 5.0 releases through the years... maybe a few more.

Either way, while the overall each versions are largely the same, each version has nuances which is why some will prefer 3.5 (like me) over 5.0, and completely loathe 4.0 because it's a screwed up mess.

6 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:

& if there is a weapon swap mechanic as well?  yikes!  add the lag issues with calculation buffs & debuffs & swapping configuration trees...  both these games are showing their age.

I think the last time I played this was back before Windows 8.1 released, as I was still running Windows 7 at the time (as I generally stay on the latest Windows version), if that says anything to how long ago this was - but everything generally worked back then as the calculations weren't nearly as indepth as what you're thinking, so it worked well with DDO.

LotRO, on the other hand, added complexity in all the wrong ways, which is why there's all the problems with it.

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9 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

but everything generally worked back then as the calculations weren't nearly as in depth as what you're thinking, so it worked well with DDO.

so by doing less they actually kept more of the pre-2010 functionality than LotRO.  so if you like playing something released in 2006, then this may be your thing...

anyway here is a video review of DDO that is overtly sarcastic, but it is recent (less than 6 months old).  shows a bit of early game-play & tons of pay for use features:

whilst overtly negative, it has some positive statements (voice acting, engaging quests, etc.)

but what i like is that it highlights the fact they charge premium prices for an old ass game.

for myself, i wouldn't play it entirely (all access) for free.

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10 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

There's been various versions of the D&D rules set over the year, as AD&D (Advanced Dungeons and Dragons) is considered 2.0, and then there was a 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, and 5.0 releases through the years... maybe a few more.

Either way, while the overall each versions are largely the same, each version has nuances which is why some will prefer 3.5 (like me) over 5.0, and completely loathe 4.0 because it's a screwed up mess.

I think the last time I played this was back before Windows 8.1 released, as I was still running Windows 7 at the time (as I generally stay on the latest Windows version), if that says anything to how long ago this was - but everything generally worked back then as the calculations weren't nearly as indepth as what you're thinking, so it worked well with DDO.

LotRO, on the other hand, added complexity in all the wrong ways, which is why there's all the problems with it.

Close. There was Basic D&D then Advanced D&D (and even stuff before Basic). THEN came 2.0, 3.0, 3.5, etc. D&D 5.0 ends up being about the 8th iteration of the ruleset, depending on how you count.

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4 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:

so by doing less they actually kept more of the pre-2010 functionality than LotRO.  so if you like playing something released in 2006, then this may be your thing...

anyway here is a video review of DDO that is overtly sarcastic, but it is recent (less than 6 months old).  shows a bit of early game-play & tons of pay for use features:

<video>

whilst overtly negative, it has some positive statements (voice acting, engaging quests, etc.)

but what i like is that it highlights the fact they charge premium prices for an old ass game.

for myself, i wouldn't play it entirely (all access) for free.

I think you need to put some context on this as going by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8.1 that was before 2013, so my experience is clearly dated.  That and I enjoy retrogaming when the game is actually worth playing as I don't need the best graphics to appreciate a game that's fun.

The main point to this is that the way DDO was handled was so much better than LotRO as you had adventures (aka quest packs) that were narrated, and just a better level of polish.  VIP in DDO actually made sense as the quest packs (which were largely made by Turbine), and many of the other features are just standard perks as part of VIP.  In the long run, though, buying the components would eventually be more money efficient as (tbh) neither LotRO nor DDO is really worth a sub nowadays.  I can go more in depth on more of the perks, but that's a derail.  What the dude probably saw was someone doing a reincarnation, which is where you get a permanent trait to the character after hitting level 20, put your gear into a cache, and then have your level reset back to 1.  Leveling works differently, as while there's 20 levels in total, there's like 4 or 5 ranks to each level, so there's actually more levels than you'd think in practice.  The one downside to DDO is that you must have a decent understanding of 3.5 or you will not do well because it's a little too easy to screw up a char because you don't know what your doing - which can be fixed with money.

I mean, I did enjoy the time I spent playing DDO, yes that was a while ago.  It's a game that would DEFINITELY work better with a group of friends, as a lot of the quest packs offer the LotRO equivalent of 4-5 dungeons with a questline to go through them, and a lot of the quests are well done enough that they felt worth the money at the time.  The downside was that the technical bar of entry coupled with a horrendous flop initially (which is why it was forced to go F2P) essentially doomed that game.

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On 4/4/2019 at 11:51 PM, Almagnus1 said:

The downside was that the technical bar of entry coupled with a horrendous flop initially (which is why it was forced to go F2P) essentially doomed that game.

maybe, but the actual DDO franchise also doesn't seem to translate to the mass market, but is a niche with Dice and Dungeon Master crowd & paperback books.  i think the core that want that in a video game are already playing.  i just don't think there is some hidden mass market for said IP out there.

in fact i think that may be why NeverWinter does better than DDO...  because it doesn't hold remotely as close to the source rule-sets, but is much more approachable.

regardless, i have never read any of the books, or even seen said 2000 movie.  whilst i can appreciate medieval fantasy settings, i have no personal requirements for a D&D rule-set.  it just isn't a feature i look for, or need.

i also believe that those who do require such, are entirely niche.  a fringe market.

if this 2021 movie does go ahead, i predict it will be another flop @ the box office & probably lose money again.


anyway looks like Daybreak still is setting the pricing on Expansion packages...

PRE-ORDER Ultimate Fan bundle ONLY 129.99 USD$

soo worth...

NOT.

edit: one more for good measure & a dose of cringe:

not all that unlike LOTRO after all.

yet they think a premium bundle is worth 129.99USD, or a standard edition 39.99$

both sad and laughable.

i could do this for hours:

 

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10 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:

maybe, but the actual DDO franchise also doesn't seem to translate to the mass market, but is a niche with Dice and Dungeon Master crowd & paperback books.  i think the core that want that in a video game are already playing.  i just don't think there is some hidden mass market for said IP out there.

in fact i think that may be why NeverWinter does better than DDO...  because it doesn't hold remotely as close to the source rule-sets, but is much more approachable.

regardless, i have never read any of the books, or even seen said 2000 movie.  whilst i can appreciate medieval fantasy settings, i have no personal requirements for a D&D rule-set.  it just isn't a feature i look for, or need.

i also believe that those who do require such, are entirely niche.  a fringe market.

if this 2021 movie does go ahead, i predict it will be another flop @ the box office & probably lose money again.

I think that's the core problem with DDO.... it's TOO close to the tabletop version that many that play basically go "why don't I just join a local group instead?"

10 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:

anyway looks like Daybreak still is setting the pricing on Expansion packages...

PRE-ORDER Ultimate Fan bundle ONLY 129.99 USD$

Was not aware of that, and that seems a little overkill.  If I'm going to spend that much on a video game, it's going to be on something like https://www.warframe.com/prime-access , provided it's for a warframe I like.

10 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:

<lag videos>

I wonder if there was a server move (or some of the botched LotRO-style server "upgrades") as I don't recall the lag being that bad when I had played for a bit.  That said, I can definitely see your point as that's just bad.

I wouldn't be surprised if SSG has taken whatever chance LotRO and DDO had of surviving and driven it into the ground.

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On 4/6/2019 at 9:45 PM, Almagnus1 said:

I wonder if there was a server move (or some of the botched LotRO-style server "upgrades") as I don't recall the lag being that bad when I had played for a bit.

every-time they add something to the existing code, things get muddled...

Arywen mentioned the addition of legendary items & the forge and relic system created a whole new load on the backend.

dynamic layering (around FTP launch in 2010) was another addition that in theory should lessen lag on low end systems having to process less players in a zone, but anything patched into the old beast tends to add issues elsewhere.

right around great river update (March 2012) they completed the virtualization work (i don't know when it happened for DDO, but the 2 properties tend to both get back-end side-grades applied) allowing for the games to run on EVEN less hardware.  for myself (and many others) this was when things went permanently south, never to return.

from July 2010 (when i got my brand new machine) - March 2012 i actually played the game with decent performance.  not like a newer game obviously, but for Lotro, it was a passing grade.

regardless, all these additions over the years, have only cost the basic performance of an older game(2007), with an even older engine and client (1998.)

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2 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:

regardless, all these additions over the years, have only cost the basic performance of an older game(2007), with an even older engine and client (1998.)

I suspect that's the main problem, as LotRO and DDO have not been modernized.  What's more ironic is that WoW:Classic is going to show how you bring an old MMO back to life again... but they had to basically rewrite the server code and massage the database to have it work correctly because Blizzard wasn't going to put the original 1.12 server code out for the world to exploit and hack all over again.

I doubt SSG has the manpower or financials to fix their clients as it's all too little, too late.

 

 

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