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Another layoffs at Turbine


drul
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WBI will not allow those seats to go unused IMO. Either shutdown and move or fill it with someone. 

 

Turbine is the only east coast connection they have

 

Turbine is not going to get capital, but some other company in WBI undoubtedly has access to some capital, and in this day and age why not spread your staff among regions to take advantage of it?

 

I'm throwing out a dartboard guess of either Monolith East or WBI Boston. Will IC be transferred or will it go tablet/phone? :D

 

 

yeah mate,  Feb 12 was only round one.  i think there'll be another round come early Summer before Q3.  because when IC launches in the Spring, i can't see them needed to hire more people.

 

then the whole company will easily fit into one room.

 

perhaps the lease on that building is 2 contracts instead of one; which is why they moved there a while back & it's just a matter of will IC teams join AC2, DDO & LoTRO, or will it be the other way round?  >.>

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WBI will not allow those seats to go unused IMO. Either shutdown and move or fill it with someone. 

 

Turbine is the only east coast connection they have

 

Turbine is not going to get capital, but some other company in WBI undoubtedly has access to some capital, and in this day and age why not spread your staff among regions to take advantage of it?

 

I'm throwing out a dartboard guess of either Monolith East or WBI Boston. Will IC be transferred or will it go tablet/phone? :D

 

 

They have a large studio in Montreal witch is about 4 or 5 hour drive from Boston.   

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I agree.  Though I did see one of the Massively guys give SWTOR a grade of F for their pvp late last year.  I do not think they're quite as beholden to the game company as others like Ten Ton Hammer.  I have to think a part of their credo is they love gaming and they'll see the positive and look forward to more regardless of the situation.  Aside from that, he's been pretty critical of LOTRO and Turbine lately.  I've appreciated his willingness to not pull punches.  I can't fault him for liking what he likes and trying to remain optimistic.

Not surprised they gave SWTOR an F for PvP. There is so much exploiting and botting in the warzones that me and my family finally gave up on it and decided to stick with the PvE. Of course, I doubt that's why they got the F, though I wish more games would be reviewed for their exploitability so that decent players can be warned to find something else. Thankfully, the SWTOR playerbase doesn't seem to have yet figured out how to exploit the new PvP space combat. I've actually been having some fun with that.

Anyway, more on topic, my condolences to those at Turbine who have lost their jobs. It greatly saddens me to see so many laid off during such economically difficult times. You guys didn't deserve it. Your management at the top did, but not you. I know you did the best you could with the cards dealt to you. It must be so frustrating to work so hard just to lose your job anyway.

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(Re: +Patience) She's in some way connected to the Paris France location, she may be one of the few work from home employees. Was unaware they had a Massachusetts office.  I probably used up most of my search-fu reserve over the past couple days trying to figure out just who all survived the layoffs. She did move out to the west coast for the year or so she was with Zynga. Yes, I still follow her on twitter.

 

Did Patience tweet anything about the Turbine layoffs?

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Did Patience tweet anything about the Turbine layoffs?

 

She had put out a notice of a company hiring.  I think she wanted to either stay out of the excrement storm by not saying more.  After all, a lot of the people she worked with had already passed on from Turbine.

 

Speaking of her tweets, the ones I read after she left Turbine were very telling.  Her mood lightened incrementally, the farther she got away from her old situation, to where she seems to be floating on air by the time she reached the West Coast.  I think she chose the drive to help give her time to throw off a lot of negative baggage she had piled upon her when she was at Turbine.

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Did Patience tweet anything about the Turbine layoffs?

Not directly. She put out some recruiter info for her company as part of that 'job resource/layoff list'. The impression I got was that her personal facebook page had some other details about the numbers of folks laid off and that sort of thing, but I'm taking James429's word for that all and how they're connected, but he's been right about every other tidbit of info so far so I have no reason to doubt it.

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Not directly. She put out some recruiter info for her company as part of that 'job resource/layoff list'. The impression I got was that her personal facebook page had some other details about the numbers of folks laid off and that sort of thing, but I'm taking James429's word for that all and how they're connected, but he's been right about every other tidbit of info so far so I have no reason to doubt it.

 

Thanks, Crell. I appreciate the info.

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So!

 

Back to clear some stuff up.

 

First, you guys should take off your rose-colored glasses and remember that the golden years of LOTRO were pretty awful. When Moria came out, the instances were horribly exploitable and were regularly bypassed or exploited for about six months. Before then, the game itself had great quests, but frankly was a bit of a bore. Remember launch month? The Auction House and Mail were down for three weeks.

 

Free-to-play saved LOTRO and DDO. Without it, they likely would have been shut down years ago. Check out what Fernando and Kate have said publicly - 3x to 5x increase in revenue. That's not a lie, it's the truth, and it helped save the company, not just the games. So as much as you may dislike it, it kept the games alive and saved Turbine by making us more valuable in the eyes of WB. Without WB, we most likely would have shut the studio down.

 

As to outsourcing any of Turbine's jobs, that is almost certainly not part of the plan. Game developers are difficult to outsource, and few companies do so. If they do, they tend to open a studio in the desired country, rather than hire another outsourcing company, since they're pretty shit at what they do.

 

Cheers!

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So!

 

Back to clear some stuff up.

 

First, you guys should take off your rose-colored glasses and remember that the golden years of LOTRO were pretty awful. When Moria came out, the instances were horribly exploitable and were regularly bypassed or exploited for about six months. Before then, the game itself had great quests, but frankly was a bit of a bore. Remember launch month? The Auction House and Mail were down for three weeks.

 

Free-to-play saved LOTRO and DDO. Without it, they likely would have been shut down years ago. Check out what Fernando and Kate have said publicly - 3x to 5x increase in revenue. That's not a lie, it's the truth, and it helped save the company, not just the games. So as much as you may dislike it, it kept the games alive and saved Turbine by making us more valuable in the eyes of WB. Without WB, we most likely would have shut the studio down.

 

As to outsourcing any of Turbine's jobs, that is almost certainly not part of the plan. Game developers are difficult to outsource, and few companies do so. If they do, they tend to open a studio in the desired country, rather than hire another outsourcing company, since they're pretty shit at what they do.

 

Cheers!

 

I hate to say it but I kind of agree. I was not around before free2play, so can not comment about how the state of the game was then, but from what I have heard, financially it was not doing too well.

 

I think many, if not most, will also agree that the increase in revenue allowed the game to continue.

 

What most are not happy with is not the fact that the game went free2play, but the poor way it was implemented to exploit the player by providing as little development of the game as possible which has now lead the game into trouble.

 

Turbine used a short term solution to save the game temporarily. Their customers got wise and sick of it and now their original solution is killing the game.

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So!

 

Back to clear some stuff up.

 

First, you guys should take off your rose-colored glasses and remember that the golden years of LOTRO were pretty awful. When Moria came out, the instances were horribly exploitable and were regularly bypassed or exploited for about six months. Before then, the game itself had great quests, but frankly was a bit of a bore. Remember launch month? The Auction House and Mail were down for three weeks.

 

Free-to-play saved LOTRO and DDO. Without it, they likely would have been shut down years ago. Check out what Fernando and Kate have said publicly - 3x to 5x increase in revenue. That's not a lie, it's the truth, and it helped save the company, not just the games. So as much as you may dislike it, it kept the games alive and saved Turbine by making us more valuable in the eyes of WB. Without WB, we most likely would have shut the studio down.

 

As to outsourcing any of Turbine's jobs, that is almost certainly not part of the plan. Game developers are difficult to outsource, and few companies do so. If they do, they tend to open a studio in the desired country, rather than hire another outsourcing company, since they're pretty shit at what they do.

 

Cheers!

 

The AH and Mail weren't down 3 weeks on EU side, I certainly don't remember that being the case.

Exploits a plenty tho, I remember that.

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So!

 

Back to clear some stuff up.

 

First, you guys should take off your rose-colored glasses and remember that the golden years of LOTRO were pretty awful. When Moria came out, the instances were horribly exploitable and were regularly bypassed or exploited for about six months. Before then, the game itself had great quests, but frankly was a bit of a bore. Remember launch month? The Auction House and Mail were down for three weeks.

 

Free-to-play saved LOTRO and DDO. Without it, they likely would have been shut down years ago. Check out what Fernando and Kate have said publicly - 3x to 5x increase in revenue. That's not a lie, it's the truth, and it helped save the company, not just the games. So as much as you may dislike it, it kept the games alive and saved Turbine by making us more valuable in the eyes of WB. Without WB, we most likely would have shut the studio down.

 

As to outsourcing any of Turbine's jobs, that is almost certainly not part of the plan. Game developers are difficult to outsource, and few companies do so. If they do, they tend to open a studio in the desired country, rather than hire another outsourcing company, since they're pretty shit at what they do.

 

Cheers!

I am sure I would think same way if I would be an employee (or investor) at company.  Tbat is only natural, work and providing for yourself and family comes miles ahead of everything else.

 

As a player - f2p change made further existence of Lotro for me meaningless. I only regret that I've sticked in f2p Lotro for few months. For me Lotro had shut down years ago.

 

Yeah exploits were present. Expereienced that I won't tolerate that kind of bad work (releasing expansion with so exploitable content) and lack of action (keeping instances open and not fixing them)  in further games I will play.

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So!

 

Back to clear some stuff up.

 

First, you guys should take off your rose-colored glasses and remember that the golden years of LOTRO were pretty awful. When Moria came out, the instances were horribly exploitable and were regularly bypassed or exploited for about six months. Before then, the game itself had great quests, but frankly was a bit of a bore. Remember launch month? The Auction House and Mail were down for three weeks.

 

Free-to-play saved LOTRO and DDO. Without it, they likely would have been shut down years ago. Check out what Fernando and Kate have said publicly - 3x to 5x increase in revenue. That's not a lie, it's the truth, and it helped save the company, not just the games. So as much as you may dislike it, it kept the games alive and saved Turbine by making us more valuable in the eyes of WB. Without WB, we most likely would have shut the studio down.

 

As to outsourcing any of Turbine's jobs, that is almost certainly not part of the plan. Game developers are difficult to outsource, and few companies do so. If they do, they tend to open a studio in the desired country, rather than hire another outsourcing company, since they're pretty shit at what they do.

 

Cheers!

 

 

I have been around since the friends and family alpha in '06 and own multiple accounts (f2p accounts not included)

i love this game.

yes it had its warts back in the day all games do but SOA/MOM are still preferable to what it is now.

and i agree turbines f2p hybrid not only saved ddo/lotro but it was also the blueprint other devs used to save or launch their own games.

for that turbine deserves kudos.

 

however turbine took the greedy path with their store shoving it down our collective throats.

(again to be fair other companies took note of this and for the most part those adopting turbines style of f2p have avoided these pitfall turbine gleefully jumped into headfirst.)

the incessant in your face presence of the store made it harder and harder to play.

add to that the despot-like behavior of the CSM and it makes for an extremely unpleasant experience.

so bad that i eventually stopped playing back in october of 2012 except for an occasional login to check on things.

(i have recently started to play again once in a while but not for long as the store just gets to me)

 

i play other f2p mmos...swtor, rift, path of exile among others and in none of them is the store as prevalent as it is in lotro.

yes the store is there in these games but i dont feel i HAVE to buy from it in order to advance in the game like i do with lotro.

 

most of the folks i know from lotro dont really hate f2p, they hate the WAY it was implemented in lotro and the open greed.

between the store and the CSM it has ruined a truly wonderful community.

 

devs from other studios still use turbine as an example, but now it is for what not to do with f2p and how NOT to run the online community.

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First, you guys should take off your rose-colored glasses and remember that the golden years of LOTRO were pretty awful. When Moria came out, the instances were horribly exploitable and were regularly bypassed or exploited for about six months. Before then, the game itself had great quests, but frankly was a bit of a bore. Remember launch month? The Auction House and Mail were down for three weeks.

Instances being exploited isn't a problem. Those who want to run it properly will still do so. And the AH and mail being down for 3 weeks very early on is just a hiccough.

 

Free-to-play saved LOTRO and DDO. Without it, they likely would have been shut down years ago. Check out what Fernando and Kate have said publicly - 3x to 5x increase in revenue. That's not a lie, it's the truth, and it helped save the company, not just the games. So as much as you may dislike it, it kept the games alive and saved Turbine by making us more valuable in the eyes of WB. Without WB, we most likely would have shut the studio down.

You're falsely equating profit with being saved. It could be that pre-F2P, their revenue was more than enough to keep the game alive (as they stated, F2P wasn't because LotRO was in any trouble, it was simply out of greed). Then getting 3x to 5x that revenue after F2P, that was simply the initial blast and certainly not a sustained figure.

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You're falsely equating profit with being saved. It could be that pre-F2P, their revenue was more than enough to keep the game alive (as they stated, F2P wasn't because LotRO was in any trouble, it was simply out of greed). Then getting 3x to 5x that revenue after F2P, that was simply the initial blast and certainly not a sustained figure.

 

Yes, I'm going to call shenanigans on this. They are NOT making 3x to 5x more than they werre. It certainly probably increased their MONTHLY revenue by that much for one MONTH, but not sustainably. No way. Otherwise, why was everyone shown the door.

 

The rest of HelloWorld's post rings true. But I didn't care. It was Middle-earth, and felt like it.

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Free-to-play saved LOTRO and DDO. Without it, they likely would have been shut down years ago. Check out what Fernando and Kate have said publicly - 3x to 5x increase in revenue. That's not a lie, it's the truth, and it helped save the company, not just the games. So as much as you may dislike it, it kept the games alive and saved Turbine by making us more valuable in the eyes of WB. Without WB, we most likely would have shut the studio down.

 

 

 

By my calculations the game has been running an almost identical amount of time in F2P model as it has non-F2P model.... So if the revenues were 4-5 times increased just how did Turbine manage to balls it up so badly? Why did the content get less and less (and lower quality) for more cost? Compare the 'free' updates in SoA to those received during Riders of Rohan... Alternatively, lets compare the Moria expansion compared to any expansion released under the F2P banner. Moria had so much more content than any expansion since it really is night and day in comparison. Even Mirkwood which was sold as a 'mini-expansion' had more content that Helms Deep (actually Mirkwood had great content when you include Skirms but Turbine never did get the reward system right for fellow/raid skirms).

 

While F2P may have massively increased revenues the investment in the games has just been all down hill. Actually when I hear how many people Turbine employ (or did employ) I do wonder exactly what they all did... LOTRO was the last 'new' game they produced and that was back in 2007... hardly prolific eh? Sounds a bit like 3D Realms syndrome with LOTRO  now getting the squeeze because of many years of poor management of Turbine resources... Or maybe we can blame the Harry Potter MMORPG which Turbine were supposed to be developing but got cancelled ;)    

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So!

 

Back to clear some stuff up.

 

First, you guys should take off your rose-colored glasses and remember that the golden years of LOTRO were pretty awful. When Moria came out, the instances were horribly exploitable and were regularly bypassed or exploited for about six months. Before then, the game itself had great quests, but frankly was a bit of a bore. Remember launch month? The Auction House and Mail were down for three weeks.

 

Free-to-play saved LOTRO and DDO. Without it, they likely would have been shut down years ago. Check out what Fernando and Kate have said publicly - 3x to 5x increase in revenue. That's not a lie, it's the truth, and it helped save the company, not just the games. So as much as you may dislike it, it kept the games alive and saved Turbine by making us more valuable in the eyes of WB. Without WB, we most likely would have shut the studio down.

 

As to outsourcing any of Turbine's jobs, that is almost certainly not part of the plan. Game developers are difficult to outsource, and few companies do so. If they do, they tend to open a studio in the desired country, rather than hire another outsourcing company, since they're pretty shit at what they do.

 

Cheers!

 

Have you ever watched any adverts where a company advertises a product for sale, claiming that it is 50% off or 75% off? Have you then read the small print and found that the reference price, against which the said discount was calculated was only in use for 2 weeks before the sale started? Makes you question the validity & province of the sale does it not?

 

So, as with Turbine, I'll take a punt with a high degree of confidence that the 3 to 5x revenue increases was applicable only for a short period, say no more than 3 months, after which that increase tailed off.  Why do I know? Because if it was a longer term trend then KP and the rest of the execs at WB would be telling the market about this wonderful success story and not issuing press releases informing the market of layoffs and "strategic repositioning"...

 

By all means claim the growth figures, but from what i can see none of us here on this site were born yesterday, unlike some on the official forum...

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That surge of income seemed to permanently shift the focus from providing a high-quality game experience to providing a so-so experience with a shop attached to it.

 

When the initial surge abated (by many accounts after the Rise of Isengard xpac came out ), the solution wasn't "go back to providing high-quality game experience" but "put in more opportunities to spend money in everyday gaming situations".

 

People keep resisting the push to spend more, and you have the downward spiral we see now.

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i play other f2p mmos...swtor, rift, path of exile among others and in none of them is the store as prevalent as it is in lotro.

yes the store is there in these games but i dont feel i HAVE to buy from it in order to advance in the game like i do with lotro.

 

I am nitpicking and I am sorry for that ;p    but Path of Exile is not an mmo.   It's online multiplayer, but not mmo.

 

Path of Exile developers say same thing

 

We do not classify Path of Exile as an MMORPG. It is a competitive online action RPG, and has little in common with games that are typically given the MMORPG moniker.

 

Just saying ;)

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Free-to-play saved LOTRO and DDO. Without it, they likely would have been shut down years ago. Check out what Fernando and Kate have said publicly - 3x to 5x increase in revenue. That's not a lie, it's the truth, and it helped save the company, not just the games. So as much as you may dislike it, it kept the games alive and saved Turbine by making us more valuable in the eyes of WB. Without WB, we most likely would have shut the studio down.

I think you misremember. The only claims about increased revenue from f2p were from the first two quarters after f2p was released. There were no new numbers afterwards. That means for years now.

While a couple of quarters with 2x or 3x revenue sound pretty good to the casual or business reader, we here know that this could be just a bunch of people scrambling together their personal lifetime subscription - for a lot less money than an actual lifetime sub.

I take it as support for this view that they made the expansions so expensive. The expansions were the last way to get money out of those folks.

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I hate to say it but I kind of agree. I was not around before free2play, so can not comment about how the state of the game was then, but from what I have heard, financially it was not doing too well.

 

I think many, if not most, will also agree that the increase in revenue allowed the game to continue.

 

What most are not happy with is not the fact that the game went free2play, but the poor way it was implemented to exploit the player by providing as little development of the game as possible which has now lead the game into trouble.

 

Turbine used a short term solution to save the game temporarily. Their customers got wise and sick of it and now their original solution is killing the game.

Yep I agree.

When I heard it was going F2P, I was (stupidly it appears) optimistic. We were promised regular content, we were promised it wouldn't be play to win and basically we were promised it wouldn't be like it is now.

The regular content never materialized, the store ended up in our face and the whole thing was a total shambles from the pov of most people that enjoyed playing the game.

They messed up big time initially offering life time accounts, and Codemasters selling lifetime accounts for £75 a few weeks before F2P was also a silly move and obviously done by them as they knew they were loosing the license soon.

Before it went F2P, 8 out of 10 people I met in game seemed to be life timers.

Obviously if your a Tolkien fan and you get offered such a deal, most people would jump at it. The problem is, it's the Tolkien fans that are the ones likely to want to play for any real length of time, so while it might have got them a lot of money initially, a few years down the road meant hardly any new income with a sub based game where the majority didn't have to pay.

The problem is, Turbine took the short route with F2P, rather than investing all this 3 - 5x more revenue in good content, and deliver what we were promised, they became greedy. And in my opinion it's backfired badly.

They forgot about their core base of players. While I stand by my thinking that lifetime accounts are a bad idea for a niche mmo like Lotro, it's also true that many life timers also paid to sub one or more other accounts.

When it went F2P, many more lifetimers started up numerous F2P accounts and made the occasional TP purchase, and subbed for one month to go premium etc.

But someone at Turbine decided to simply get as much cash off of us as they could. It looks to me like the majority of the 3 - 5x more income did not get plowed back into Lotro development but was used elsewhere.

It went from an immersive Tolkien environment, to an in your face store that killed half the game.

I used to spend some of my TP on daily task resets, it was 50 TP a time, I probably did this about once a week on one of my alts.

Then Turbine decided in their wisdom to up the price to 100 TP and I haven't bought a single one since.

Most people I know did not leave because the game went F2P, they left due to lack of decent content, the game being dumbed down, and the store being too on our faces (daily hobbit presents for example).

GW2 and EQ2 both have a store, sure many people hate them, but at least I can play either without it feeling like one big advert for the store.

Person after person warned what was happening, person after person ended up banned from the forums, or gave up hope and moved elsewhere.

Turbine have got no one to blame but themselves.

I've noticed over the last few years that a load of people complain about the direction the games taking, one by one they disappear, whether they give up, move on, or Sapience bans them, who knows, but when they go, another lot of completely different posters come along with exactly the same complaints, exactly the same warnings that they know person after person that is leaving, and again they end up with infractions, ignored etc.

There's probably about 4 - 12 people on the official forums in all this time that continually have a go at anyone that criticizes the game, some I think are just wishful thinkers and are making all these comments to try to convince themselves it isn't true, a few are just trolls, who deliberately miss any point being made and act like kids the way they quote bits out of context or try to use silly arguments (such as some of the ones responding to the recent layoffs).

I've only ever posted on the forum if I had a problem my kin couldn't solve, occasionally to make a suggestion in the suggestion part, and when I'm pissed off with the game, all other times I would rather play than live on the forums. Yet these same few people that appear to have their heads in the sand, seem to spend more time posting every day in the forums than I used to spend actually playing Lotro.

It's not a matter of them having a different opinion to me, I couldn't care less if someone thinks the games great, it's the way they respond to the posts, I really don't believe people are really that blinkered (unless they are very young).

Many people including myself have seen such things happen in various businesses either where we've worked at, or others we've been in contact with and it doesn't take a genius to work out what Kate was really saying with her producers letter and the layoffs do not surprise me in the slightest. Some of those 12 odd people think we're having a party over here, gloating and saying "I told you so".

Well I am saying I told you so because it was bloody obvious. I'm not saying this to gloat, I did really mean it when I said I hoped I was proven wrong.

Reminds me of a company I used to run the IT department at. I gave 6 months of warning to the center manager that xyz would happen if they continued down the route they were going, time and time again, I and many others warned them, They refused to listen.

Within 6 months, I was working 15 hrs a day, 7 days a week, missing my kids birthdays etc trying to fix the problems I warned them about. And I did tell the center manager that I and others told him so and I got the usual "lets try to be positive, lets look on the solution" bullshit.

I also told him about 3 members of staff who like Rick should not be in their jobs and were a big part of the problem. He tried to reprimand me for that, I went above his head and I ended up being forced to resign with a nice 15k pay off.

Roll on 6 months, the center manager was replaced, there was about 2 - 300 staff there. Within 2 months of the new center manager being there, he made just 3 people redundant, you've guessed it, the 3 people I had the guts to complain about as I could see the damage they were doing, and while everyone else complained about them behind peoples backs, I tried to do something about it.

My point being, there comes a time in life when people simply want to scream, I'm 50 in a few months, I'm sure I'm no where near the oldest, I see letters like Kate, and people sticking up for the letter on the forums, and I want to scream at them "how stupid are you". I can understand some people just from school etc and not used to the way the world works, might understandably fall for it, but most of us see letters like that, see how they are treating us, know full well what they are really saying and just cant be bothered with what is effectively business bollocks. I hate it as much as I hate modern business talk.

Many people (me included) are sick of being treated like thick stupid idiots by companies, I see some people sticking up for such practices on a variety of forums (not just lotro related) saying thats how the world of business works, all I can say is some people might accept it, I think it's wrong and I know from these various forums that for every one person that still pretends everything is OK, they loose about 10+ customers who do not like being treated like that.

My pet peeve is silence, I'd rather a simple message saying they are preparing an announcement than nothing. It just makes it look like the companies have total contempt for us.

Treat us with a bit of respect, treat us with a bit of curtsey, treat us like we have some brains, and remember we pay your wages. Keep us informed of developments whether good or bad and companies will be pleasantly surprised how much stuff we are willing to put up with under those sorts of circumstances. Make it an them and us environment and you can go stuff yourselves.

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