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Turbine purges their post pledging "convenience not advantage" after putting store only relics for sale


Da Brudders
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http://www.casualstrolltomordor.com/2011/03/episode-78a/ (Audio file beyond the video)

Thank you.

In a thread about turbine removing (censoring) topics on their forums you're surprised you do not find something like this on the official forums? Srsly? 7(8)7*O*

I was thinking more about the Codies forum, actually. Still though, I wouldn't expect them to delete a topic regarding Kate's speech, provided of course that it was done under the guise of simply posting pertinent information and there was no criticism. Purging old posts is standard for them, I'm sure their ulterior motive for including the post in question is obvious to all but at least they had a precedent to hide behind. I don't think they're that brazen that they would delete anything and everything without at least being able to mask their reasons for the benefit of their many supporters.
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I was thinking more about the Codies forum, actually. Still though, I wouldn't expect them to delete a topic regarding Kate's speech, provided of course that it was done under the guise of simply posting pertinent information and there was no criticism. Purging old posts is standard for them, I'm sure their ulterior motive for including the post in question is obvious to all but at least they had a precedent to hide behind. I don't think they're that brazen that they would delete anything and everything without at least being able to mask their reasons for the benefit of their many supporters.

They deleted the post mentioned in the OP as a direct response to the many people throwing the "convenience, not advantage" promise back in their faces. And, they did so unabashedly.

It's rather long and tedious, but you need to listen to that entire audio from PAX East to understand. How their customers feel about something is way, way down on their list of priorities. In most cases, they could care less. As to their supporters, those can be bought, and the truth has little or no effect on sycophants anyway. That keynote address really sums up Turbine's new approach and the justification for it. Worth the listen.

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Purging old posts is standard for them

Not in this case. Turbine does a purge of the forums once a year. But they announce it, and then (after a week or two) delete threads which have not been active since half a year.

No, deleting the "convenience not advantage" thread was no purge. They wanted to hide the message. But maybe someone should explain the "Streysand-effect" to them^^

+what Spheric said

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Only one way to stop them putting things that give great game advantages into the store in future - don't buy them - ever.

I don't think its enough to stop them, I mean we are just a few and silent protest won't draw any attention to this. In my opinion the best way is to publicize this fact : you can "pay to win" with lotro now, and anyone investing in the game will probably see the nature of the game profoundly transformed in the next few months.

Do enough negative publicity on twitter and the like, and be sure to include hashtags like #lotro or #turbine to make sure they hear about it. Only thus will they understand that they should be careful with the store as they will ultimately lose customers.

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EDIT - I'll also add that Turbine are at risk of hastening the demise of their cash cow (lotro) with this cut-throat commercial approach. It just takes the introduction of a credible next generation MMO for players to vote with their feet (i.e. SWTOR, Guild Wars 2, The Secret World).

So absolutely true. I can see the next year being very eye-opening for some decision makers at Turbine when these new MMO come out - but then they would have milked this certain cash-cow 'til it's last drop. We may never get to Mordor :'(

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Its bad the way the Store seems to be taking over and ruining LOTRO. I don't see a problem with the cosmetic stuff like a new dress or a horse. But buying things from the store to make your character a better fighter or crafter. Just seems wrong and makes you wonder if its worth grinding to make your character better when somebody else can do much the same with a couple of clicks of a mouse.

I suppose i will stay until the Isengard expansion comes and see what that brings.

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I don't see a problem with the cosmetic stuff like a new dress or a horse. But buying things from the store to make your character a better fighter or crafter. Just seems wrong and makes you wonder if its worth grinding to make your character better when somebody else can do much the same with a couple of clicks of a mouse.

I agree with this post completely - fluff and charslot, content and storage unlocks are what the store should be offering, not ways to bypass game content.

Oh right, how silly of me, I forgot their goal seems to be making such crappy "content" (the various grinds from virtues to relics) that people are even happy to spend money to bypass it... so they can do what?

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I agree with this post completely - fluff and charslot, content and storage unlocks are what the store should be offering, not ways to bypass game content.

Disagreed. It is ok even to change time for money. Scolls of Empowerment for example are a perfect store item. You don't have the time to grind for it - buy it. If one spends hours and hours for grinding these rolls - it does not matter how one spends this hours. Doing a RL-Job or grinding ingame - both costs time, so there is no difference at all.

We, who buy this stuff, can now decide wheter to quit our job to have enough time for grind, or to stay in our job and get the grind otherwise done. In addition it gives Turbine a lot of money to develope new content. "gave" actually.

But this bullshit they are doing now since "Scroll of Removal" and now with shop-only relicts is what it is. These are relevant items which are not achievable In-Game (not even to mention the lore-breaking effect - imagine a RP-Toon asking another: "oh hai, where did you get this pretty shiny relict attached to your remarkable bow" - "yeah, you know - I got it from the TURBINE™ LOTRO™ SHOP for just 550 TURBINE™ Points")

Until the Store-Only relicts where invented, I was willing to spend money for the Shop. Heck, I spent more money for LotRO in the last few month then in the last 3 years.

But now, I will never spend any real money to Turbine ever again, ever. Maybe if they change their point of view. Maybe if they are going to keep their "convenience, not advantage"-promise. But as it is now - they do not deserve any money.

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Disagreed. It is ok even to change time for money. Scolls of Empowerment for example are a perfect store item. You don't have the time to grind for it - buy it. If one spends hours and hours for grinding these rolls - it does not matter how one spends this hours. Doing a RL-Job or grinding ingame - both costs time, so there is no difference at all.

I disagree on Your disagree as due to what You said above also means it'd be okay to sell 1st age items and top raiding gear in store. I think Turbine got it right 1st time selling convenience not advantage. Of course Scrolls of Empowerment You mentioned in example are perfect example of convinience, due to multiple and easy ways to obtain them and themselves being worthless without proper Legendary Item.

The appearance of store exclusive potions, stat tomes, relic removal scroll, relics is nothing but pure greed. That greed is okay as long as store items doesn't influence gameplay, but it isn't even one year since TS introduction and I already can call them advantage. If nothing will change that does not bode well for the future...

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it'd be okay to sell 1st age items and top raiding gear in store.

That was not intended to be implied.

As long as items are group-items (achieved exclusively by raiding with a group of 3/6/12/24 ppl), they should never come to the store. So no 1st age items, and no raiding gear. When we can level up to Level 75 or 85, and 1st ages can be bartered for skirmish-marks, in other words, when these items can (ingame) get earned by solo-grinding - they can put it in the store as well.

The appearance of store exclusive potions, stat tomes, relic removal scroll, relics is nothing but pure greed. That greed is okay as long as store items doesn't influence gameplay, but it isn't even one year since TS introduction and I already can call them advantage. If nothing will change that does not bode well for the future...

Agreed.

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My Humble stance on this is that all items on the store should be avalaible in-game to grind, craft, fight for and nothing should be 'store exclusive'. I am fully aware some enjoy bypassing content i.e buying virtures etc and that helps in theory 'fund the development time' for more content :).

However items shouldnt be on the store to give a clear advantage i.e (evil pots morale/power) and asking people not to buy them is like asking people not to buy a giant cookie :).

If its there, people will buy it.

I guess I'm old school and like to work towards things and begrudge items I cannot obtain in-game.

Finally I know one guy (who has a lot of money) in my kin who has spent almost £250 on the store since F2P. He buys the virtues on his alts, morale/power pots, scrolls of empowerment's etc etc. We give him a nickname 'Turbines Investment Junkie' since its people like him thankfully that are probably funding isengard :P

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My main issue here is the fact that Turbine are trying to cover up what they initially said, this effects their integrity in my opinion!

Companies are going to change their minds on things, especially if they see profit in it. I am fine with that but I am not fine with the attempted cover up. Shame on you Turbine!

With regards to the whole buying instore thing, if someone wants to spend their hard earned cash on pixels on a screen then let them but I say mark the items as such so when you hover over it you can see its store bought. Morale pots etc well that just harms the ingame economy so its swings and roundabouts really.

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That was not intended to be implied.

As long as items are group-items (achieved exclusively by raiding with a group of 3/6/12/24 ppl), they should never come to the store. So no 1st age items, and no raiding gear. When we can level up to Level 75 or 85, and 1st ages can be bartered for skirmish-marks, in other words, when these items can (ingame) get earned by solo-grinding - they can put it in the store as well.

Okay, that I understand and like, just thought that doing 3/6/12/24 man content mainly just requires more time and if it's okay to cut corners...

And what's really annoying me is the thought Turbine is already making much more money on people like Honvik described and don't need to push stuff like relics into store, yet the greed...

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I've asked on twitter if they can justify the decisions that is currently being discussed and how they can justify the price increase of server transfers from European servers to other servers, yet the US server transfer prices remain the same.

Lets see if I get a reply....

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If the store went one of these two ways, which would you prefer? Obviously, there are other directions but for the sake of argument....

1. Turbine adds a variety of End gear, Relics, Legendary Weapons in store for purchase as well as leaving the opportunity to acquire them in game through an average, moderate playing style (rather than infinitesimal chance drops).

2. Turbine adds Relics and certain other "advantage" items to the store that are exclusive and are not attainable through gameplay.

I would go with option 1 as I am not an uber player, enjoy the game mainly through exploring and don't use the store and never will other than to purchase future content. It doesn't impact on my playing style if others (who have little time or simply a lot of cash) decide to attain items through the store (although I am aware that others feel differently about this). To me using the store for advantage is like using using cheat codes to dumb down PC games. At first liberating but then soul destroying as it removes the challenge and reason for enjoying the game in the first place. With this option many would go the play to acquire route and a great deal would splash the cash, so Turbine would still win.

The second option (and one currently being implemented) is just plain wrong to me both financially and morally. Making everything available to everyone, whatever their playing style, is fair and still a money spinner. The idea of spending my non working hours grinding deeds to accumulate 5 and 10 Turbine points to scrape together enough for a Relic is obscene and is the polar opposite of my idea of what a game should offer me.

When I sign up on the Turbine forum I will use the following text (from Hurin in the original Turbine thread) as my signature.

And. . . Finally. . . Begging

Please Turbine. As a loyal customer, and vocal advocate over the last four years, I'm literally begging you not to go down this road. Please don't disillusion and disappoint those who gave you the benefit of the doubt this whole time and stuck up for you even as the slippery slope started appearing ever more steep.

Yes, we can all make up our own minds about what's a deal-breaker for each of us as individuals. And ultimately, we can all "just quit if we don't like it." But, I'm asking you to please not force that decision upon us. Don't make us choose. Because we don't want to go. We want to stay. But many of us can't stay if this is the way it's going to be. Can't anything be done?

Hurin

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If the store went one of these two ways, which would you prefer? Obviously, there are other directions but for the sake of argument....

1. Turbine adds a variety of End gear, Relics, Legendary Weapons in store for purchase as well as leaving the opportunity to acquire them in game through an average, moderate playing style (rather than infinitesimal chance drops).

2. Turbine adds Relics and certain other "advantage" items to the store that are exclusive and are not attainable through gameplay.

I would go with option 1 as I am not an uber player, enjoy the game mainly through exploring and don't use the store and never will other than to purchase future content. It doesn't impact on my playing style if others (who have little time or simply a lot of cash) decide to attain items through the store (although I am aware that others feel differently about this). To me using the store for advantage is like using using cheat codes to dumb down PC games. At first liberating but then soul destroying as it removes the challenge and reason for enjoying the game in the first place. With this option many would go the play to acquire route and a great deal would splash the cash, so Turbine would still win.

The second option (and one currently being implemented) is just plain wrong to me both financially and morally. Making everything available to everyone, whatever their playing style, is fair and still a money spinner. The idea of spending my non working hours grinding deeds to accumulate 5 and 10 Turbine points to scrape together enough for a Relic is obscene and is the polar opposite of my idea of what a game should offer me.

When I sign up on the Turbine forum I will use the following text (from Hurin in the original Turbine thread) as my signature.

And. . . Finally. . . Begging

Please Turbine. As a loyal customer, and vocal advocate over the last four years, I'm literally begging you not to go down this road. Please don't disillusion and disappoint those who gave you the benefit of the doubt this whole time and stuck up for you even as the slippery slope started appearing ever more steep.

Yes, we can all make up our own minds about what's a deal-breaker for each of us as individuals. And ultimately, we can all "just quit if we don't like it." But, I'm asking you to please not force that decision upon us. Don't make us choose. Because we don't want to go. We want to stay. But many of us can't stay if this is the way it's going to be. Can't anything be done?

Hurin

The main problem is that with option 1 the community have given partly in if they accept it.

The statement was that end raid gear and stuff would not be in the store at all.

I let my principles count and cancelled my subs.

I cannot look in the future but I still believe that Turbine gonna put more and more of those kinda items in the store. Sure, not too much in one time, but slowly but surely though.

As long as people buy those items, and I think many will, Turbine gonna keep cracking at it.

I don't condem those people, but on the other hand LOTRO is not my game anymore.

I decided to not play the waiting game and waste even more time and money on a game I know I will leaving soon enough anyway after the next gear store exclusive.

My trust in Turbine is gone and as I said on the original Turbine forums, I don't do business with companies I don't trust.

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  • 1 month later...

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