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Turbine purges their post pledging "convenience not advantage" after putting store only relics for sale


Da Brudders
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One thing that is forgotten in this discussion is the matter of Middle-earth Enterprises (f.k.a. Tolkien Enterprises), and it relates to the aforementioned prediction that DDO will outlast LOTRO.

Just Google "Tolkien Enterprises" and "Iron Crown Enterprises", and you'll find some interesting stories about the licensing pull-out that occurred in the relationship between the two. Now, I won't tell the long and sordid story, but I do want to point out that, when ME (TE) gets the slightest hint that the return on their investment is declining, they have no qualms about rescinding the granted license, because their sole goal is profitization (something they have no hesitation to state). While that in itself is not a fault, they also have a perceived history of being rather ruthless in their pursuit of profit.

Personally, I consider it somewhat funny that WB/Turbine will have their ruthless business model, which will result in an eventual loss of profit for WB and ME, as the cause of the loss of license from ME, according to their own ruthless business model. It's only a matter of time, and I've seen it before.

As for me, being a lifer, I've played for free for some time. I have no further expectations, nor do feel any guilt over getting what I've gotten so far, as I justify my subscription as a good-faith initial investment in the success of the game.

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When I got mine it was advertised as getting the same as monthly sub.

We all know Turbine advertisements and promises...devil lies in details as usual. I was just asking is base for those mass lawsuits was strong or just some Turbine ad or promise.

They could bring out another level of sub and take the monthly points off of both lifers and current VIP's but I would imagine this would upset a lot of current players. As for RoI you will be able to but it with points, just not yet.

Well if done properly this could upset, but I think only some lifers and I guess there would be enough Turbine Defenders to explain it properly. After all lifers aren't paying anymore + their deal wouldn't be that bad at all. But it'd also give the chance for more profits for Turbine and brought less cash shop "conveniences" for those who want to pay subscription. Worse deal for lifers, better for paying customers, sounds quite fair for me.

I'm also sure they could dress it up and advertise properly. If they could bring gear to cash shop, oh excuse me, stat tomes and make those perceived as okay, just because stats are not on some kind of special "robe of awesomeness", they wouldn't have trouble in making new subscription plan. But they didn't. Kinda pointless to speculate on that matter too much.

Lifetimes were good for Turbine at the start as it would have recouped a large chunk of the money they spent making the game. Also lifers help to keep the population levels up which can be useful when new players come. The mistake was to offer lifetime subs for so long.

Yeah lifters weren't just necessary evil, but in the end deal was much better for players than Turbine. I don't have anything against people who bought it, just pointing out that those decisions will affect everyone via more cash shop items. It also explains why VIP isn't as good deal as it'd seem.

Yeah that's not a theory, I just thought Mabusian understood me as making "lifetimers brought F2P on us" theory. Thus the wording. Prolly me and my English, excuse non native speaker, please :)

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When I asked Patience specifically about the Lifetime deal during SoA beta, I was told in certain terms that it was a one-time deal specifically for beta players that would not be available later. With that in mind, I and others at the time jumped on it. At the time, it was a good deal for both parties, as we would get to play in perpetuity and Turbine would get 20 months of subscription per player (US $199.00 divided by the other special deal monthly rate of US $9.99) immediately to fund their continued development efforts. It was a fair trade.

As others have pointed out, the mistake came when this one-time deal was extended. Again, those players who saw the long-term benefit jumped at the chance to get off the monthly rate rut. To blame lifers for this is a flawed approach. The fault was solely with Turbine, who didn't realized that introductory offers like that should stay introductory. The F2P model that came later could be attributed to a poor decision on Turbine's part, coupled with the larger WB corporate desire for higher profits.

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The cost of Lifetime was around 12 to 14 months of pay per month subscription? After that it's all money saved. Something like that anyway...

As far as I remember, the original subscription was £11.99 / month, whilst the lifetime was £99. The figure that has always stuck in my mind is that I was playing free after about 8 1/2 months. I've been here over 4 years now. I can hardly complain. ;)

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All this Store junk is getting more and more questionable, that is, more "mandatory" for anyone who plays seriously.

I haven't indulged myself yet, but I can see how a good deal of these "freeloaders" who don't have to pay for their VIP anymore would be keen on buying more points. 500 a month burns in relic removals and other legendary itemizations, not to mention storage, (slayer) deed accelerations, wardrobe and costumes... A lifetimer is less likely to leave the game, more likely I would even say, to buy more points to add value to the investment already made. Besides, all that money from the Lifetime subscriptions has to have amounted a nice whoopin' deal of dough to spend on projects like say, more content for Lotro.

I don't agree with any of those points either, I'm afraid. I'm a serious player. I just don't think that the little increments that store-only items bring add anything significant. If you give me a straight choice between a player with "standard" kit that knows how to play their class, and some e-peen berk with bells, whistles, and go-faster stripes... I'll take Mr Competent every time.

I'm a freeloader. I'm not spending money on points; my investment paid off years ago. Not least because I see little at the moment to persude me that there is a long term future in the game. LotRO could be be dead on its feet in 12 months. Why waste money on points? The occasional bunch of slayer deed tomes when they're on offer lasts a remarkably long time, the rest of the ones you mention don't appeal. And as I've already pointed out - the lifetime subs were almost certainly intended to pay off the capital investment in the game. They do not represent on-going investment in the game.

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As far as I remember, the original subscription was £11.99 / month, whilst the lifetime was £99. The figure that has always stuck in my mind is that I was playing free after about 8 1/2 months. I've been here over 4 years now. I can hardly complain. ;)

Normal lifetime was £150. I think the £99 offer was originally from one of the special editions.

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Again I'm having to suffer people saying that Lifetimers are playing for free or not contributing. My wallet says different.

I paid £20 for the first two months of sub about 3 years ago. I then paid £140 for a lifetime account. £20 on Moria, £15 on Mirkwood and now £30 on Isengard comes to a grand total of £225.

If your main problem is that I've paid all that in the past not now, I'd like to point out my lifetime account could be seen as pretty much like me paying around £3.50 per month (the lifetime cost divided by the months I've been playing).

So stop pretending you're any better for stupidly paying for a subscription. If Turbine wanted more of my money they should have just made big and better expansions and charged more. For now, I'm satisfied that my £225 is more than enough to justify my lifetime account.

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Interesting idea, except that you aren't being charged by the hour. Whether you play a little or a lot, you're still getting charged the same amount per month (or every several months, if you went with a multi-month option).

Of course, I admit that my point of view may be skewed by my lifetime account status, and I don't have to play in specific intervals to make my account seem "worth the expense".

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Interesting idea, except that you aren't being charged by the hour. Whether you play a little or a lot, you're still getting charged the same amount per month (or every several months, if you went with a multi-month option).

Of course, I admit that my point of view may be skewed by my lifetime account status, and I don't have to play in specific intervals to make my account seem "worth the expense".

I worked it out once for myself, just to see what it was. It serves no real usage except when someone moans that you are spending to much money on the game. It is good to ask them what else you can do for 7p an hour.

I also have a lifetime so the cost per hour is falling and if you work out the cost of my 500 monthly points then eventually Turbine are paying me to play *O*

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I guess I am one of those strange blokes that actually pay for points bundles even though I am a Lifer. Many (if not most) Lifers tend to see as just a freebie. I see LOTRO as a club...by helping subsidise the club, I help ensure that it will be around for a while longer.

And yes, originally the Lifetime was £99.99 at the end of Beta but the US Founder's Lifetime cost was $200 USD....

Greetings Dolnor

As of 23:59 on Sunday 8th April 2007 The Lord of the Rings

Online:Shadows of Angmar European Beta Program closed!

Thousands of adventurers have entered Middle-earth over the last few

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Enterprises under license to Turbine, Inc. Codemasters is a

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Again I'm having to suffer people saying that Lifetimers are playing for free or not contributing. My wallet says different.

I paid £20 for the first two months of sub about 3 years ago. I then paid £140 for a lifetime account. £20 on Moria, £15 on Mirkwood and now £30 on Isengard comes to a grand total of £225.

If your main problem is that I've paid all that in the past not now, I'd like to point out my lifetime account could be seen as pretty much like me paying around £3.50 per month (the lifetime cost divided by the months I've been playing).

So stop pretending you're any better for stupidly paying for a subscription. If Turbine wanted more of my money they should have just made big and better expansions and charged more. For now, I'm satisfied that my £225 is more than enough to justify my lifetime account.

Above quoted for truth, for myself aswell. I was a montly subscriber for awhile, until the time cards became harder to find. Then I used paypal to buy 3 month deals. I got the Lifetime at the last discount period I think, barely. I also got one point bundle when the bonus points were double (points and bonus points? weird concept) so I've spent a whole lot of money on the game. Granted it would be a lot more if I would've been subscriber the whole time.

But the most important deal for me in the Lifetime subscription is freedom. I don't feel forced to play since I just paid for this month. It is silly I know, but the ability to play or not to play without guilt of "wasting money" is important to me.

The rest is rant:

This is my first, and so far the only game I have paid monthly for. The whole concept of pouring cash constantly into a game when other games are single-shot expenses, seems insane to me even now. The amount of revenue of MMO's compared to regular games must be huge. And we pay. No wonder World of Warcraft keeps getting tested by companies who want to leech even slightly from that cash cow. I can't help remembering how many hours I spent on Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction. Maybe more than I have for Lotro (I'm around 5000 hours in at the moment, give or take a few hundred). Compare those near similar hours to the total amount of money the games have gained. Is it any wonder I jumped at Lifetime the moment it was possible, even if it was a big chunk of my salary at the time?

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Hmm...sorry if people felt offended with my freebies term. Of course everyone who payed at least once be if for points, subscription or lifetime did contribute for game and can't really be called as such. My reasoning was wholly from Turbine side, and the truth is that lifetimers vs subscriber doesn't bring money here and now. They of course got the money upfront, but after those Y x monthly subscription months, lifetimers stopped paying vs subscriber who would play for the very same time.

Anyways instead making subscribers more valuable customers, by for example giving them better deal than lifetimers/premiums, Turbine ignored that and went cash shop way - offering better deals for all those who would like to spend extra cash, regardless of their payment plan or lack of thereof. But as it's have it's ups(keeping lifetimers happy) it has it's downs(cash shop offering advantages).

Sure it's not that bad really as exactly as mentioned a good player without cash shop features is better than poor one with them. But what if You take a good player without cash shop stuff vs same one with? I already can see the difference, not big, but noticeable. And I'll be pessimistic here and say that it'll only become more and more noticeable as to keep cash shop profitable they'll need to offer new stuff constantly. And fullf alone won't cut it.

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  • 4 weeks later...

And there it is, the final end of any of this convenience and not advantage pretence, Creeps can now buy skills in the store.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?415851-Post-NDA-PvMP-info-please

The slippery slope just became a sheer cliff face, all bets are off now I think.

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And there it is, the final end of any of this convenience and not advantage pretence, Creeps can now buy skills in the store.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?415851-Post-NDA-PvMP-info-please

The slippery slope just became a sheer cliff face, all bets are off now I think.

Let's sum this up. Only VIPs will be able to join the Freep side where they are facing creeps who can buy their skills instead of earning them. Looks like a kind of masochism to me.

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I wonder who at Turbine is going to be the first to face palm and go "Doh!"

From a premier top-of-the-line MMORPG to a low-rent Asian style production line MMORPG in one fell year. That's some serious brand remodeling right there.

So sad.

>:(

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Indeed lifers are Turbine biggest mistake. These most loayal players that should be base of income were turned into freebies.

I am going to respond to this because I have seen this sentiment expressed on the official forums a fair bit as well and it is unfair.

The fact is that most Lifers made a gamble originally and paid out a hefty sum of money to get the lifetime subscription with no guarantees that over the long run lotro would be a game they play longterm. In general they are not the kind of people who want something for nothing.

I am a lifer and got the special offer lifetime from codemasters around the time F2P was announced. It cost £75

36 months subscription (approx £8 per month): £288

Lifetime: £75

Moria: £30 (can't remember exactly)

Mirkwood: £20

Adventure Pack: £5

Total: £418

The above is what I have spent on my account. My husband has an account which he has spent the same on and we have a third account for my mother which has been mostly premium (with a couple of months VIP) for the past year.

Just prior to the announcement of ROI I was considering buying my first points bundle - I held off until I knew more about ROI and have decided not to give Turbine anymore money until they start treating their playerbase more fairly.

At the same time most lifetime players I know are quite willing to purchase points when there are things they want to buy from the store on the grounds that they like to contribute to the cost of running and developing the game in exchange for some store fluff.

Lifers are most likely still a very loyal player base and while some may hoard points and spend them carefully I am confident that on the whole they are still a solid source of income for Turbine and should not be easily dismissed as 'freebies'.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Let's make sure this cut-throat commercial approach is advertised across the industry ;)

TSW has already announced a cash shop being introduced into the game at launch. And that discussion is also quite a rant fest. People are being labelled communist for opposing an obvious money grab. Or told they don't understand economics.

Let's sum this up. Only VIPs will be able to join the Freep side where they are facing creeps who can buy their skills instead of earning them. Looks like a kind of masochism to me.

It's been suggested that VIP players avoid the moors totally because of that. If no one goes in there, those creeps have no reason to support the store, and it hits Turbine in the pocketbook directly. Of course, there is no guarantee that they won't open up parts of ROI to open MPvP either, making players have to run the gauntlet just to quest. If they can go back on their store promises, and WB now owns the license, we don't know just how much control they have over it. It might be that when WB purchased it, they inked new words that make them able to do just that.

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open PvP would be the end of lotro, I still don't think, they're that stupid.

then again ... *sigh*

You know what they used to call people who argued against open PVP, and people who didn't like when someone just killed lower levels or newbies? Carebears. This was considered a degrading or at least a rude term for people who were "too casual." This was happening a lot in a game I used to play. It shows a bit of that attitude you can find in an open world PVP game. Lotro was never designed to be a PVP game. PvMP was added as a bonus, neglected and not really balanced.

So in short, I agree. Open PVP is totally against what Lotro is. I certainly hope that PVE and PvMP stay as they are, mostly separate parts of the game.

----

I haven't played PvMP very much, some Creep'ing now and then. It doesn't strike my fancy, despite my streaks of player versus player enthusiasm. It's not balanced, it doesn't work very well and I somehow don't like how PvMP is handled in Lotro.

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