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Angry Joe's review of TESO


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Judging by what his ex-guildies are saying on Reddit, it would appear he didn't even get much higher than 15, and even then most of his time was just in Cyrodiil. No wonder he is so inaccurate, he hardly played the game... It shows in his review to be honest.

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MMOs are difficult to review fairly because of the requisite time investment for a fair review: From level to cap in all factions, IMO, and attempting to participate in multiple aspects of content from solo to raid to pvp to crafting and housing.

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Joe doesn't seem that sort of gamer to me at all, especially since in that review he was  sorta talking about how he wanted more immersion (don't think he used the word immersion, but it's what he was getting at.)  He was complaining about others coming in and ruining dungeon experiences or bots causing a boss fight to be completely unepic and take a person right out of the game and story.. so it would seem he's the opposite of what you think him to be. :P He seems the type to definitely be taking in the journey, wanting a good story, etc.  

 He got to level 10 and went to PvP. Just how much story do you think he was able to see in 10 levels? He also failed to mention that these are public dungeons, not end game dungeons. They are basically done to get the achievement and skyshard with in, and that's it, there isn't any special phat lewtz. The Guild quests have bosses that are very challenging and they are private instances, so no botters allowed. Bots are an issue, no doubt, they are being dealt with.

 

I don't like the guy, I think he's annoying. He's the type if I met him in RL after ten minutes of listening to him I'd want to choke slam him, so take my opinion of him with a large amount of salt.

 

I know you aren't playing so let do some side by comparisons story-wise.

 

ESO:

 

Main story, same for every race and faction.

 

Guild story, same for every race and faction..

 

Zones: So far at level 23 and just starting the 3rd big zone .Each zone, even the starter zones, have their own unique story line and quests, and each faction has their own zones, so there is no funneling of factions into the same zone at higher levels. That means each faction you play is completely different experience. Now I only have 1 toon that's been past the 1st big zone, so maybe they all have the same story line, but at this point it seems doubtful.

 

LOTRO:

 

Epics are the same for everyone.

 

After the initial starter zone for each race, all zones are exactly the same

 

Rift:

 

Main story is different for both factions.

 

After 2 exclusive zones for both factions, they are both funneled into the same zones, with different story lines and quests, until Ember Isle and the Storm Legion xpac zones, then it's all the same.

 

ToR:

 

Each class and faction has their own unique story line.

 

Once past the starter planet each faction has their own unique story line, but all classes within each faction has the same quests. (It's been awhile, I may be wrong on some points)

 

GW2:

 

Main story, initially it's different for every race, but at a certain point it's all the same.

 

After the starter zone for each race it's all the same from then on.

 

TSW:

 

Each faction has a unique start, then everyone is in Kingsmouth doing exactly the same thing with the exception of faction missions,

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MMOs are difficult to review fairly because of the requisite time investment for a fair review: From level to cap in all factions, IMO, and attempting to participate in multiple aspects of content from solo to raid to pvp to crafting and housing.

^^^^^^THIS

 

A good MMO should be at least 3 games for me. The journey to cap, end game raiding, and then PvP.

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He got to level 10 and went to PvP. Just how much story do you think he was able to see in 10 levels?

I saw that myself in those 10 levels and it (and combination with many other things) was enough for me to know I wouldn't want to pay whatever the sub cost is a month. To each their own.

 

I don't like the guy, I think he's annoying. He's the type if I met him in RL after ten minutes of listening to him I'd want to choke slam him, so take my opinion of him with a large amount of salt.

But this is the funny thing to me. People are all like "Oh, he only did 'x'" (and honestly none of us know precisely how much he did, only what he showed in his video/streams and hearsay) so therefore his opinion is to be discarded.. yet many of the same people watch like 2 minutes of his video, proclaim him to be a troll and the type of player that rushes to level, bots, etc. :P The opening bits of his videos are a bit, 'colourful' I conceed, but that's not the sum of what he does any more than the first 10 levels of TESO is its sum.

 

I know you aren't playing so let do some side by comparisons story-wise.

I don't say this to be rude or cause offense but to be honest: I'm not really interested. :P I was talking specifically about the reviewer, not the game.

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In his defence, from what I could see he either finished Auridon or close to it.  He also did the first four man dungeon which bugged out on them at the end so they couldn't complete it.

 

Whilst I don't agree with everything and I think some of the criticism is overblown, he does have some very good points.  In particular for me, the way the game has so many public instancing and dungeons has not been a success.  Most of the quests, whilst great from a single player perspective, are not really designed for so many people trying to complete them at the same time.  Nothing breaks my immersion more than getting invested in a quest, only to reach the final named mob fight to find him half dead with 3 other people killing him and I've missed whatever bit of dialogue he had to say.

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I get a kick out of Angry Joe for the most part.   Watched a few of his takes on things.  Didn't particularly agree with some of what he said about the game but he just seems like an enthusiastic gamer to me.

 

I think I prefer some of the streams from BogOtter, 'Friend of Massively', more.  His Wildstar streams have been entertaining.

 

JRonnie, I agree with what you are saying.  But, not having killed 10 boars to complete a quest, having each feel to be a story being told, has been nice.  Though at times I wish I could get a little exp bump instead of completing 4-5 stages in a quest before getting the final reward.  I've enjoyed the voice acting, think the look of the game is tremendous, and so far am enjoying myself immensely.  I wish Turbine or Bioware could have done something like this for Middle Earth and/or Star Wars.

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I saw that myself in those 10 levels and it (and combination with many other things) was enough for me to know I wouldn't want to pay whatever the sub cost is a month. To each their own.

 

 

 

I wasn't all that impressed with my beta experience either as I posted on these boards. My opinion changed once I started playing live. I'm surprised Zenimax allowed an open beta with that build, it probably cost them sales. As for Angry Joe, to each his own indeed, his schtick doesn't appeal to me, but then I seldom listen to reviewers and tend to form my own opinions.

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In particular for me, the way the game has so many public instancing and dungeons has not been a success.  Most of the quests, whilst great from a single player perspective, are not really designed for so many people trying to complete them at the same time.  Nothing breaks my immersion more than getting invested in a quest, only to reach the final named mob fight to find him half dead with 3 other people killing him and I've missed whatever bit of dialogue he had to say.

 

I think that criticism can be leveled against most MMO's shortly after launch, those things tend to settle after a month or so. The only way to avoid this is to instance MMO's so much you as may as well be playing a single player game.

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Watched the review (Francis/boogie did something similar btw, like a tl:dr version of Joe's thing: check on youtube if you want) - and I respectfully disagree with both of them. 

 

To my liking the game is far from average, I would say it's quite exceptional - or at least is offering something you can't really find in other games. 

 

Stuff about imperial edition, gold spammers and bots - it's just unimportant details which will pass. 

 

I hope I will not sound like a fanboy or anything, but at the moment game looks quite fitting for my type of, well… me ;)

 

However maybe some exceptional things which are probably objectively there (and which probably will set some new standards), or which I haven't seen in this form or stage anywhere else:

 

1. Well, flexibility in builds etc. with skill point system, quite unparalleled I think. 

2. Logical action combat system (dodge, block, interrupt, light attack, hard attack) with a touch of MMO type skill "launcher". Also, monster and NPC physical bodies are not passable (as sprites), which contributes to the fun of the action

3. Nice use of phasing (indeed, after solving a "problem" the world changes, i.e., you deal with ghost problem via quest and ghosts vanish from the area, it becomes peaceful or inhabited with wolves etc), things will definitely develop in this direction in future

4. Good quest writing, and non-superficial lore! As well as a lot of follow-up detail. In, example, later in the game you meet NPCs you've helped in earlier quests in inn's of other towns, so you can actually talk with them about the good old times, what they were doing meanwhile etc. And books of course! NPC friendlies and enemies (including bosses) have a character. Quite amazing.

5. Immersive minimal UI (I actually enjoy not seeing nameplates.. majority of players have horrible names, not seeing them is a salvation! ;)) A lot of realistic details, like you have to stop to check the map, "look" at a character nearby to distinguish NPC from a player etc. And it's not only the option to switch this on or off - it is influencing player behaviour as well. I would be really glad if vanilla UI would stay as it is, and "missing" things would be added by add-ons (if people are desperate)

6. Solo bosses in a way "train" you for group and elder content. To my understanding, it's quite uniquely and well executed feature.

 

Of course, a lot can be improved (i.e. social tools etc) and issues Joe and Francis touch exist of course, but to my understanding they are either not essential OR too much connected with MMO "standard", as some things considered "standard" are not there. Another thing is, that when expectations are high you might get disappointed with the result initially.

 

I remember having quite a similar feeling when playing beta during the first day. Well, after that (and now) I can say each day I feel dragged in more and more, which is probably a good thing. 

 

I think, TES - one of ultimate single player RPG game principles contributed as much as they could to MMO sphere in this hybrid TODAY, without moving too far away from MMO standards and conceptions (which could be risky financially I guess). I'm a fan of Morrowind (as well as some aspects of Oblivion and Skyrim of course), so surely there is too little dialog choice and REAL impact of actions, too little freedom and too much linearity - if you would consider it a single player game. Instead of this you get option to live in TES world with other people! Now… as NPCs standing always in the same place in Morrowind might have bugged me (Oblivion and Skyrim is unique with all the NPC AI actions, but it would be probably quite demanding to implement something like this in a MMO yet), the same is of course here (but much better than in other MMOs!!!). Of course sometimes NPCs (and whole armies) travel amazingly fast unseen (phase from place to place). Of course killed monsters respawn in the same place after a while… One day however this kind of stuff will change, and in my book ESO is pretty nice step towards greater immersion and meaningful questing in MMOs. 

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I think a lot of the whining/bitching is because we are so used to seeing so many things that we are used to in MMO's, and are rather stuck in our ways.

 

I do however agree some systems need work, especially the social UI aspect.

 

The bots/gold spamming are already thinning out(whether that is due to ZOS, or them moving on, I don't know), and the public dungeon respawn mechanism appears to have been tweaked, so that a boss will only spawn when a new player enters the immediate area(tested this earlier this evening... and can 100% confirm) or the mini boss has a VERY long timer.

 

Regarding names above players... can you imagine what it would look like in town if all 200 players had there little names showing!!!  Good grief, talk about text overkill LOL.

 

Just over a week or so before the 30days initial 'included time' expires, then we shall see whether there is actual subscriber retention.

Exciting times ahead, I reckon this game will be fine.

 

My entire guild will be continuing to play(just over 70 players now... I only formed the guild just before launch).

Now just to get them into the VR zones to start the real stuff! :P

 

It bodes well for the future imo.

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A good addon is rainbowreticle

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info118-RainbowReticle.html

It shows friends, guild members or everyone else if you want as you move the cross hair past someone, much better than nameplates in my opinion. The screen shots on that page only shows how the cross hair changes colour depending on mob, and don't do the addon justice.

You can always delete it if you don't like it, it's now a must have for me.

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Upon further review, Angry Joe's review was over the top.  

 

I think he made some solid points, but the stuff that he dwelt on and ridiculed ad nauseum was often making mountains out of mole hills.  He even admits himself that these are not uncommon problems for any MMO and that they'll likely get fixed over time.  He also went on about some of the very fine points of the game that he thinks are real plusses.

 

I almost felt like I was listening to a more profane version of Justin Olivetti from Massively.  Roll the dice and see if this is going to be a positive or negative review, but then straddle the fence and say both.  And he's gone out of his way before to make the comparison of this game's features compared to a free to play game.  I just don't see the point.  If you REALLY like an MMO and get into it, 15 a month is about as cheap a form of entertainment you can find.  The difference between 1 game and another would have to be absolutely non-existent for me to make that 15 a month the deciding factor.

 

At the same time, he has a handle and public persona to keep up and 'Angry Joe' can't come across like Mr. NiceGuy.  He's gotta use the F-word a bunch and show the angry side.


A good addon is rainbowreticle

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info118-RainbowReticle.html

It shows friends, guild members or everyone else if you want as you move the cross hair past someone, much better than nameplates in my opinion. The screen shots on that page only shows how the cross hair changes colour depending on mob, and don't do the addon justice.

You can always delete it if you don't like it, it's now a must have for me.

Thanks, Glump.  I'll take a look at it.  Just got it through Minionui :)

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Just over a week or so before the 30days initial 'included time' expires, then we shall see whether there is actual subscriber retention.

Exciting times ahead, I reckon this game will be fine.

 

My entire guild will be continuing to play(just over 70 players now... I only formed the guild just before launch).

Now just to get them into the VR zones to start the real stuff! :P

 

It bodes well for the future imo.

I agree, my guilds a long established guild from EU Lotro, gw2, swtor etc and isn't looking to rapidly expand. We have 47 guild members playing TESO and we all love it and will all be subbing.

In this particular case those saying they are cancelling their subs on the OF forum are a very small percentage of players, I doubt I've seen more than 30 to 50 saying they have cancelled and many of those have said words to the effect of

"I've cancelled my sub, you have until its up for renewal to sort out xx and get me to re sub"

Many were when the bank slot problem happened and I have seen people saying they are happy with the outcome and have re subbed.

I've seen probably as many again, possibly a few more, but still talking something along the lines of 70 to 150, that have threatened to cancel due to problems they are having, and some of those seem to be those odd cases where the game won't run without crashing on their PC, and of course if they can't sort their problems out, probably will quit.

But on the OF we are talking about 200 in total. While I have guessed that amount, I'm on their forums every single night, reading most posts in their customer support section and it is a small minority threatening or confirming they have or are quitting. And of course some of the really pissed off ones mention this over and over again in various threads.

Obviously any sub based game will have a percentage who buy the game but decide after a month it's not for them, but most people like that simply stop playing, they don't go onto the OF forum to tell us all.

I get the feeling with a lot of threads on various forums that many of the complainers have only played beta if at all and have no interest in seeing any teething problems fixed, I think many of them would be overjoyed for some reason to see this game fail.

I also think that most people are in game having great fun and I think it will have a great future.

I know I sound a bit like the Lotro defenders when I and others have complained about the state it's in, but that's a different situation where people have invested years of their time in Lotro only to see it ruined. Whereas, Teso hasn't been live for a month yet.

I hope it remains sub based but I'm not going to say it won't ever end up F2P, but I think that won't be on the cards for a good long while,

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Upon further review, Angry Joe's review was over the top.  

 

I think he made some solid points, but the stuff that he dwelt on and ridiculed ad nauseum was often making mountains out of mole hills.  He even admits himself that these are not uncommon problems for any MMO and that they'll likely get fixed over time.  He also went on about some of the very fine points of the game that he thinks are real plusses.

 

I almost felt like I was listening to a more profane version of Justin Olivetti from Massively.  Roll the dice and see if this is going to be a positive or negative review, but then straddle the fence and say both.  And he's gone out of his way before to make the comparison of this game's features compared to a free to play game.  I just don't see the point.  If you REALLY like an MMO and get into it, 15 a month is about as cheap a form of entertainment you can find.  The difference between 1 game and another would have to be absolutely non-existent for me to make that 15 a month the deciding factor.

 

At the same time, he has a handle and public persona to keep up and 'Angry Joe' can't come across like Mr. NiceGuy.  He's gotta use the F-word a bunch and show the angry side.

Thanks, Glump.  I'll take a look at it.  Just got it through Minionui :)

 

You might have got the wrong thing as for some reason searching for Rainbow Reticle through Minion gives you a patch for it to do something else.

 

If your using Minion, you need to search for "Exterminatus Rainbow Reticle"

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Ive got to chime in on this one, i do really think ESO gets put down far more than it should for fairly minor things given the stupidly ridiculously large scale of the game. (makes Lotro's game world look modest)

 

The horse issue: It isnt an issue if you can't afford one, there is no need to buy the imperial edition. Its no hassle getting around, there are quick travel options around the place as well. As with lotro, currency from completing quests increases as you level, this is missed by most people.

 

Public dungeons: Are not instances, they are not the end-game encounters. You'll likely find layers camping them out for the boss's, they respawn every few minutes however. Public dungeons are akin to Goblin town in lotro, except normally far smaller in scale. So theyre not the most significant part of the game and weave their way into your normal activities, sometimes theyll be one thats part of some form of story arc.  So there not normally the most significant of spaces. And i personally havnt had an issue yet.

 

The phasing thing, its not an issue if several or more players keep to the same quest at once, so if you play regularily with a significant other its no problem whatsoever. However it does mean if they forget something you cant always go back and help the other person out. Think of phasing as a room, this room has several states depending on where you are on the quest. You cant swap between these states. And these states exist to move the story of the quest along. ie a pristine city, a city under attack, a city smouldering after the attack. You would progress through each of these states in a seamless way as part of the questing experience and they themselves would be seamlessly integrated into the open world (if part of the landscape - which they often are).

 

I do implore people to actually try it before passing judgement, theres a lot you can be put off by with the sheer amount of negativity flying around, by mostly minor issues. Ive heard complaints ranging from the day/night cycle is only 6 hours it should be a whole day !! (try playing in the dark every evening with a 24h cycle) and there's no rag-doll physics (In an mmo, youve got to be mad how would they handle that). 

 

The beta's didn't do a good job of showing off the game (what a sad world we live in now) and actually put me off, but a lot has changed. So give it a go.

 

Oh and it is ruddy gorgeous, if youve played Rift its large step up from that and looks to be pretty well optimised. It runs faster/smoother than lotro does on my laptop (onboard - HD4400) hilariously!

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The horse issue: It isnt an issue if you can't afford one, there is no need to buy the imperial edition. Its no hassle getting around, there are quick travel options around the place as well. As with lotro, currency from completing quests increases as you level, this is missed by most people.

 

Yep and travel is free between one wayshrine and another.

It's also free if you travel to another player, so if a friend, guild mate etc is in an area you want to get to and your not near a wayshrine, travel to them will put you at the nearest wayshrine to them.

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Oh and it is ruddy gorgeous, if youve played Rift its large step up from that and looks to be pretty well optimised. It runs faster/smoother than lotro does on my laptop (onboard - HD4400) hilariously!

 

Thats another criticism I just don't get that the graphics are dour and depressing. They are the polar opposite of WoW, Wildstar and the like and are more based in a realistic colour pallette so maybe its taste thing but some areas are absolutely stunning. Especially for the people who always complement the Lotro world builders, they'd really like the enviroments in TESO I'd guess.

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Yep and travel is free between one wayshrine and another.

It's also free if you travel to another player, so if a friend, guild mate etc is in an area you want to get to and your not near a wayshrine, travel to them will put you at the nearest wayshrine to them.

As a general rule, I suggest to all my guildies that if they are wanting to group(even just general questing), it is a good habit that the first thing the invited player does after they have received their invite is travel to their leader(no matter if he thinks going by wayshrine may be just as fast)...  This will guarantee the entire party will be in the same layer.

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I do implore people to actually try it before passing judgement[...]

How do I do that? It is gated behind a full purchase.

Not gonna do that as long as the negativity looks reasonable.

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The horse issue: It isnt an issue if you can't afford one, there is no need to buy the imperial edition. Its no hassle getting around, there are quick travel options around the place as well. As with lotro, currency from completing quests increases as you level, this is missed by most people.

 

 

Yep, gold is quite easier to get by in higher levels. There are not many gold sinks in the game, besides bank/bag space and horses… 

 

Thats another criticism I just don't get that the graphics are dour and depressing. They are the polar opposite of WoW, Wildstar and the like and are more based in a realistic colour pallette so maybe its taste thing but some areas are absolutely stunning. Especially for the people who always complement the Lotro world builders, they'd really like the enviroments in TESO I'd guess.

 

Graphics, oh god, yes, it's too subjective probably. ESO realistic graphic style is quite amazing (for me). Cartoonish art style of WoW was one of the reasons I couldn't bind with the game (and I tried hard at least 3 times!). GW2 - some of the character models, some of the armour models, all the legendary weapons - horrible (no complaints about amazing world building!!)! Now, I said it's subjective, but somebody would have to threaten to kill all my family for me to play something like Wildstar (graphic-wise) even for a minute! Forget I said its subjective, it should be banned, all this kitsch, its abomination, anything what is related to anime should be removed from the face of earrrrrrrrrr, um, well... ;) So, as I've said, its pretty subjective. 

 

 

How do I do that? It is gated behind a full purchase.

Not gonna do that as long as the negativity looks reasonable.

 

Waiting out is quite wise probably, as main problems related to bugs, bots etc. will be dealt with. I think negativity will pass as well. We'll see. Time always shows what's what. :) However, for me negativity seems to be over the top or not reasonable enough in most cases. Things have substantially improved even if you "tried" it in beta. The owls are not what they seem! ;)

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How do I do that? It is gated behind a full purchase.

Not gonna do that as long as the negativity looks reasonable.

They look credible from the outside.

 

Short of debunking some of the more outlandish criticisms that are around online with first hand experience one at a time (which im not doing) i dont see a way forward.

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Will just have to keep posting about how we are enjoying the game as we move through it.  

 

Between the family of five, teacher contract negotiations, and coaching baseball...I've had very little time to play lately and am not likely to be leveling fast this next month.  Still only at level 21.  I log in a few times a day to start the next research for my crafting professions.  

 

But I love the look. I love the stories of the quests.  Love the voice acting.  Cannot wait to start getting into the PVP at Cyrodiil.  Like the challenge of a new combat system with active dodging and blocking.  I just wish a game this good was set in Middle Earth because that will always be the center of my fantasy universe.

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