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vr00mie

Sapience leaves LOTRO

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Really I would prefer to pay 60-80$ for full game without any microtranactions rather than to have on-going fees or increased grinds (in games in which you can grind everything, but you can avoid it by paying $ in store).

 

 

Just logic 101.  Honest product for honest payment.   Microtranasctions ain't it.

Just to be devil's advocate..how can any MMO survive with just an initial fee to purchase and no monthly subscription fee or micro-transactions? Where does the revenue come from to release continuous content?  If I misread your post, my apologies :)

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If a game can make enough cash selling cosmetics and not resort to "gaming" the core game design by introducing false grinds for essential character builds / gear and thus corral those people into the store, then I know which one I would take. It's the lesser of two evils.

Players going on compromises like that is reason why we are in current situation.

 

If a game can make enough cash selling cosmetics and not resort to "gaming" the core game design by introducing false grinds for essential character builds / gear and thus corral those people into the store, then I know which one I would take. It's the lesser of two evils. 

 

Those games are now very, very rare indeed. Are there any MMOs that don't have a on-the-side business selling exclusive cosmetics & mounts even if they are BTP or full sub? Wildstar and ESO spring to mind but the former will soon be opening its own store if the current slide in its fortunes continues.

 

MMOs?   Kinda depend what games you consider MMOs, since people vary with it.    There are still online multiplayer games without microtransactions, but those titles I know of are not in my opinion MMOs.

 

As for MMORPG games (like Lotro, WoW, Rift, GW2, etc)  only title I THINK does not have microtransactions is FF XIV 2.0, althrough I've heard they are considering cosmetic cash shop. (take all this with a grain of salt, I don't follow FF XIV 2.0 anymore,  not my type of game for several reasons).

 

Anyway - this situation (with payments) is one of  few reasons I don't play MMORPGs anymore. 

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Just to be devil's advocate..how can any MMO survive with just an initial fee to purchase and no monthly subscription fee or micro-transactions? Where does the revenue come from to release continuous content?  If I misread your post, my apologies :)

 

In before 'expansions'.

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Just to be devil's advocate..how can any MMO survive with just an initial fee to purchase and no monthly subscription fee or micro-transactions? Where does the revenue come from to release continuous content?  If I misread your post, my apologies :)

 

I was talking about PoE.  It is not an MMO.   Besides it can have paid expansions.

 

For MMOs / MMORPGs - I am ready to pay subsciption, but only under a circumstance that apart of sub and big expansions, there are no other payments at all.

 

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I was talking about PoE.  It is not an MMO.   Besides it can have paid expansions.

 

For MMOs / MMORPGs - I am ready to pay subsciption, but only under a circumstance that apart of sub and big expansions, there are no other payments at all.

 

Understood.  And I agree with you on the last part.  I'd even be willing to pay a larger initial fee (vs. subscription) if it came with the promise that all/any content released within the first 2 or 3 years of the game is free.  A gamble to be sure, but still...I guess it would depend on the game in question and the company making it.

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Really I would prefer to pay 60-80$ for full game without any microtranactions rather than to have on-going fees or increased grinds (in games in which you can grind everything, but you can avoid it by paying $ in store).

 

 

Just logic 101.  Honest product for honest payment.   Microtranasctions ain't it.

I just think it would be foolish for a game developer to not allow their game to give avenues for people to spend discretionary income on expanded offerings in their chosen favorite area.  I think the days of EQ and WoW getting their income from monthly subs are gone.

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I just think it would be foolish for a game developer to not allow their game to give avenues for people to spend discretionary income on expanded offerings in their chosen favorite area.  I think the days of EQ and WoW getting their income from monthly subs are gone.

Sure. From business perspective it is foolish, because clearly some people are ready to pay more AND at same time there are enough other people with less money who are ok with playing in RMT game enviroment (& in many cases serve as a content).

 

Anyway - I am not playing and I am not gonna play MMORPGs anymore.  Not until all major MMORPGs problems are being dealt with succesfully. (& I consider microtransactions as one of this problems).

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That's too bad, drul.  Of course if you aren't enjoying something, you shouldn't do it.  I don't see microtransactions going anywhere though.  They allow specialization and customization, and in today's MMOs that ability is crucial if you are going to not only maximize revenue but appeal to different types of people with different play styles and interests.

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Yeah. I can see upside of microtransctions, especially (but not only) from business side of story.

 

Their downsides are much bigger for me as a player though, actually for me they are deal-breaking kind of thing. I though about diffrent kind of microtransction-based business model (pure F2P,  Freemiums, GW2 B2P+Cash Shop,  D3 Real Money Auction House,  Everquest Landmark&Next model and others)  but none of them change anything for me. All are unacceptable for me, because I don't like exactly what they do at core - allow to get in-game stuff for $ with all of it's consequences to a game enviroment and thus other players experience.

 

Microtranasctions models are fascinating from physological and business side of view though.  So much potential to monetize people if you at same time have complete control over whole enviroment people pay in to be in.

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The problem with the MMO market is there is so much saturation in the market with competing F2P games, and less and less sub based games.  From what I've seen with sub based games is you get what you pay for.  I paid the WOW sub for 5 years and never once did I question those charges.  The game was up and running around the clock 6 1/2 days a week (maintenence day for 6 to 12 hours).  And it seemed as though the money spent was being reinvested in the game and I think that was the thing that was most important to me.   When we got WOW expansions we got far more than 40$ worth of content (comparably to other games).  When I spent 40$ on the Burning Crusade I got far more play time and replayability out of that than any other game on the market, and I'm positive that's where that 15$ a month went (along with the superior customer service and reliability of the servers)

 

As far as the customer service is concerned, my WOW account was compromised in 2010.  It took a total of 40 minutes to have every item restored and the account returned to me.  We had a kinnie in 2012 that had his Lotro account compromised it took him several weeks to have his account restored 100%.  I remeber his naked dwarf running around during that time lol.

 

As evidenced at times by the Lotro forums there are players who are willing to dump massive amounts of money into the game, while getting less and less of a return.  Usually their defense of Turbine is the same quote.  "Turbine is running a business and they need to make money".  It is stated time after time as if no one playing understands the goal of making video games is turning a profit.   The counter argument would be that Turbine can make a profit, but when that profit is gained at the loss of players by over monetization or grindy systems (poorly designed) to encourage store use, that there are far fewer cows to milk and less overall profit, rather than per customer.  (yeah I know severe run on sentence) 

 

I really have no problems with a buy to play model with paid dlc (as long as the DLC is worth the dollar spent).  Don't charge me 60$ for the game and then bag me for 40$ for an xpac that has less than 1/4 of the the original product.   I have no problem with Sub models as long as they continue to pump that money back into the game.  As far as free to play is concerned I have yet to see it done 100% correctly. Sometimes they offer a subscription that allows you to rent content, sometimes they give you store stipends, but overall the F2P craze should have been kept to the mobile platform, where poor graphics and game design reall does not matter as much.

 

Sorry for the long winded post.

 

Don't get me wrong, I did not want to come off as some WOW fan boy.  The gameplay had some very glaring issues and those are major reason why I quit nearly 5 years ago.  But atleast their content additions are up to par.

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@Quinn...well said, agree 100%

I'd think most would since it's simple logic and not opinion.  Sometimes I think I should have my own blog or write for these e zines but you guys know well enough my emotions sometimes get in the way of rational thinking lol.

 

Sadly though there is not one single game I have seen recently released I feel is worth a pruchase.  My gaming time is now absorbed by netflix, forum browsing and writing songs for my band, so the hiatus has been good and at time boring.

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I'd think most would since it's simple logic and not opinion.  Sometimes I think I should have my own blog or write for these e zines but you guys know well enough my emotions sometimes get in the way of rational thinking lol.

 

Sadly though there is not one single game I have seen recently released I feel is worth a pruchase.  My gaming time is now absorbed by netflix, forum browsing and writing songs for my band, so the hiatus has been good and at time boring.

 

I bet a lot of the profits made from LOTRO got funneled to IC.

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I bet a lot of the profits made from LOTRO got funneled to IC.

I think guarentee is a better word than bet.  It's doing just as well as WB's other MOBA Guardians of Middle Earth, which means it isn't.

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Those wood-trolls always confused me. There are 3 different types of troll really. The earless, rounded-headed film copies. The big-nosed, big-bellied classic trolls. And the weird root/branch-limbed things that are these supposed 'wood-trolls'. But they just look weird. Nothing like trolls to me. And that big one in Giant's Valley is clearly not a wood-troll at all. It's an ent given an evil skinning. It makes no sense to me why they called it a wood-troll, or why the wood-trolls they do have look like they do. One of the few designs I didn't agree with even from the start.

 

The regular Trolls are made from stone, hence they turn back to stone when exposed to sunlight.

 

Wood Trolls seem to be a turbine invention. I can't see them turning to wood when exposed to sunlight, because tress need sunlight, more evil Ents than anything.

 

I agree, the big one in Giants Valley seems more Ent to me.

 

Because it leads to better designs being withheld for the sake of selling them. In your frock analogy, it would be the equivalent of a store offering a flat monthly rate to rent out any piece of clothing a customer wants, but then restricting some better looking items behind an additional purchase. If I'm paying for a game, I expect the full game. Not to be limited in any area because the company wants more money from me.

I rather like ESO's way of dealing with armor. Crafted armor is rather plain at low levels, but the higher the levels, not only does it have better stats, it looks better too, much more detail, shinier, etc., even if they are the same motif.

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The Trollshaws zone revamp has KILLED the spirit of this zone. It used to have a mood of its own, a feel of desolate, uncharted, dangerous wilderness that permeated every quest. The old (pre-revamp) Trollshaws immersed you into that mood with its old quest designs and texts of the old quests. Admittedly, I am the kind of Lotro player who loved to explore, wander, and get lost (not playing for progression but for immersion), and Trollshaws absolutely delivered on that front.

Sure there used to be these "slayer" quests, but in Trollshaws they were staged immersively: each of them had a back story, lots of interactions with quest-givers, and I really felt that accomplishing such seemingly mundane tasks were making a difference to them and their situation. That is good quest description writng - even if quests themselves were as mundane as killing 10 boars/wolves/etc. It was still part of the story.

So damn glad I got to experience the old Trollshaws twice before the revamp absolutely gutted it. Now you enter the zone and get spammed with automated quest bestowals telling you to "kill ten boars" or "kill ten trolls" etc. Yeah, like by randomly walking into a zone you suddenly know what to do or what to kill. No explanations given. No interactions with NPCs. The quests that were bestowed by NPCs with stories of their own, and with background descriptions of their own, have now been divorced from their quest-givers and turned into automated pop-up quests telling you to kill random shit without any explanation or background flavor.

Just what the bloody hell?... And how is this supposed to have been an 'improvement'... Maybe it's a smoother game mechanic that saves time and effort, no longer requiring to interact with NPCs, but to me who used to play for immersion, this revamp has killed Trollshaws.

A similar death has befallen to the Misty Mountains with its own "revamp". Allow me to illustrate with an example that left me infuriated.

In the original Misty Mountains (pre-revamp), you travelled to Gloin's camp in his little fortress outpost. Not only was it exciting to 'meet' Gloin, but he had a quest for you - and a story to go with it. I no longer remember it verbatim (and didn't save a screenshot), but the gist of it was that he felt awkward leeching off the nearby Rivendell's hospitality and to make up for the dwarves' continued presence in the area he wants to present his allies with some top quality bear hides as a diplomatic gift. Sure killing 10 bears is a chore, but when framed into a story it becomes an extension of the story. As a reward, you could choose an item called "Gloin's Crossbow".

Compare that to what you get nowadays in the "revamped" Misty Mountains:

You randomly stumble into the zone, and get a pop-up remote-bestowal quest spam to "kill 10 bears". Why? No explanation. I guess because bears are bad, mmkay? No traveling to Gloin's camp. No interaction with Gloin at all. No story. No background. Just go kill 10 bears mmkay. So you plod through the random area killing ten bears. Upon the death of 10th bear, you get spammed with a "quest completed" popup, rewarding you with some experience, some Thorin's Hall reputation, and an item called "Gloin's Crossbow". What the bloody hell does it have to do with Gloin anymore, since he is no longer the quest-giver? Well, you see, the developer in charge of this revamp was lazy/rushed/too smart for all you plebians to understand (circle one) and didn't even bother changing (or even renaming!) the quest reward despite the painfully obvious oversight of this. But hey, this is something that would be noticed only by those who played through Misty Mountains before the revamp and who would even do such a thing, so let's keep "Gloin's Crossbow" as it is and move on to the next Lotro feature to mutilate.

In the "revamped" Misty Mountains, as in the "revamped" Trollshaws, you ride into camps that used to be quest hubs, and the NPCs who used to give you quests are simply standing in silence, and you can no longer interact with them at all. Because nowadays, Lotro automatically bestows quests to you directly, to save you time and effort, valued customer. Less immersion into the game world means more time you can $pend in Lotro $tore in$tead.

As I read this I thought I have to see this for myself since I have never done the new Trollshaws or MM as well.

There are some things in the post above that are just not true. They might have changed this since you played it.

Auto bestow quests: yes they are there, and sometimes in a really annoying way as you need to be in a certain area and might miss it otherwise. However most of them - at least in the Trollshaws - only after you got a quest telling you to go to that area and do something there. A good chunk of these you need to turn in at an NPC. Especially the one where you get Gloin's Crossbow. So you still get that one from Gloin directly.

Quests that often auto complete are repeatables although some of these you still have to turn in at an NPC. And these repeatables are great for things like rivendell rep which makes it a bit easier for those poor hillmen at the bitter stairs.

Questflow in general is the typical new way I.e. questing on rails and no way to deviate. This is so annoying in every way I.e. you cannot just go to thorenhad and quest there without getting the breadcrumb quest before when you finish barachen's camp. There is no way to enjoy some single quests without doing the previous ones. You are almost forced to do them all.

Looking beyond that there are a few new quests some old ones got removed - unfortunately some good ones as well - but overall the zone has a better flow and you can easily use it as a 35-40+ zone now so one could use it to bypass evendim.

The addition of more small camps and swift travel spots makes it much easier to get around although they added a bit too many.

Another thing to make it easier and worse overall is that a good part of the trolls now have only normal HP and are not red rings anymore. While this is good for getting plus 1 zeal it takes away from the fact that these trolls were scary.

Generally it is now a zone to get through. Yes it lost immersion because of too many small camps, a bit too much swift travel. It is now easier to get rep and have a steady flow through the zone. And as mentioned above being forced to that flow is my biggest annoyance.

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