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Sapience leaves LOTRO


vr00mie
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As for them changing up the LI system, it sounds like your LIs will more truly "level with you". Possibly no more replacing at each level cap increase. We'll see how it works in practice.

 

I think it is pretty likely they will never finish changing LIs below cap level. It will be like housing or the old promised LI part two - a good idea but they never got to it. Sure everyone wants this, but they need to spend their small Lotro budget on making new zones to make maintenance mode less obvious. What is even more obvious: we will never get a real fix of the loot system; the most we can hope for is a few tweaks.

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The tools to make a good LI post-revamp are easily attainable in-game. To answer your question about how to get the legacies you wanted - you slot trash LIs (of the max user level of the previous expac) while you level up through the normal quest content. Once your LIs reach level 30, you decon them, grab some good legacies, reslot trash LIs then head out to quest some more. Once you reach level cap you should have a fair amount of desirable legacy scrolls already saved up. Relics, legacies and titles are so easy to attain in-game only the truly lazy or inept would buy them, imo. (I fully admit the 15 minute relic crit scroll is easier to get in the Store but is not something you'll miss if you don't have one.)  I can see how you'd get frustrated and think the Store was your only option since it appears you didn't know how to use the in-game systems available to you.

 

I have a hard time wrapping my head around how anyone thinks the post-revamp LI system is worse than this:

 

Yes, the Store sells LI items. However, if you don't buy anything from the Store you can still make LIs better than 99% of anything you could ever have lucked in to prior to the LI revamp.

 

As for them changing up the LI system, it sounds like your LIs will more truly "level with you". Possibly no more replacing at each level cap increase. We'll see how it works in practice.

Please let it go.  Now you're just calling me a idiot to prove your own point.  I bitched about 1 item I received not every single one.  Only because every upgrade I received on a tank weapon was a dps upgrade.  I made the LI system work for me numerous times. I played the game for 4 years.  I know how the LI system works.  I never said the old system was better or worse.  I never said anyone was forced to use the store to make the current process viable.   I only said that in store items were available for the system in question (new system).  

 

I've spent a considerable amount of TP in the store.  On virtue points, slayer deed accels, xp boosts, on content, on combat scrolls, and many other items.  The only TP I spent on LI's was to get extra slots (the same day we got bridles).  That was it.  

 

Honestly you are making more of it than it needs to be and in your quest to try and make me look like an idiot isn't working.   Stop trying to bring up points I never made.  I can not speak intelligently about the old system to begin with, which is why I did not address it.  I maybe had 2 or 3 months with the old system and that was at low levels 50-55.

 

Saying the current LI system has in store items is a fact.  And that's the only thing I have said.   My rant about a single LI was only to show there are frustrating elements to it at times, not that store purchases are encouraged or forced.

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Your previous posts about your 65 1st age LI left me with the impression you didn't know what you were doing. Maybe it helped you learn the system. My apologies. I only bring up the old system to show that the post-revamp ability to make a good LI is way easier than before. The ability to swap legacies is huge.

 

Yes, LI stuff is in the store. So are a million other things I easily do without. I guess I find the process less painful than you so don't really use the store for my LI stuff, whether main or alts. Everyone has a different level of tolerance on that I suppose.

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Your previous posts about your 65 1st age LI left me with the impression you didn't know what you were doing. Maybe it helped you learn the system. My apologies. I only bring up the old system to show that the post-revamp ability to make a good LI is way easier than before. The ability to swap legacies is huge.

 

Yes, LI stuff is in the store. So are a million other things I easily do without. I guess I find the process less painful than you so don't really use the store for my LI stuff, whether main or alts. Everyone has a different level of tolerance on that I suppose.

 

Indeed lots of things are in the store. The issue with the LI system is that it's been designed from the bottom up to steer people towards buying TP in order to get over having (and this is where peer pressure / the fear of feeling left out comes in) a shitty LI that does not have the right legacies, subpar relics and only 60 item levels.

 

If I wanted to get seriously into the end-game in lotro (ludicrous though it may seem), I would either have to slave over running instance after instance in order to get enough meds and marks to buy the tier scrolls and crystals required, somehow get hold of the 100k odd shards I would need for 6 role-specific relics (assuming only two LIs are required - some classes need 3 or 4 in end game) and then turn my attention to armour, jewellery & virtues (more work needed!). Or I could just get out my credit card, spend a £100 on TPs and save myself a lot of time and hassle.

 

So as someone who has played lotro since May 07, played every class to 75, raided, rp'd, solo'd, played music in a band, had an affair with a kin friend etc etc.... don't try and kid us that the LI system is not store centric.

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Indeed lots of things are in the store. The issue with the LI system is that it's been designed from the bottom up to steer people towards buying TP in order to get over having (and this is where peer pressure / the fear of feeling left out comes in) a shitty LI that does not have the right legacies, subpar relics and only 60 item levels.

 

If I wanted to get seriously into the end-game in lotro (ludicrous though it may seem), I would either have to slave over running instance after instance in order to get enough meds and marks to buy the tier scrolls and crystals required, somehow get hold of the 100k odd shards I would need for 6 role-specific relics (assuming only two LIs are required - some classes need 3 or 4 in end game) and then turn my attention to armour, jewellery & virtues (more work needed!). Or I could just get out my credit card, spend a £100 on TPs and save myself a lot of time and hassle.

 

So as someone who has played lotro since May 07, played every class to 75, raided, rp'd, solo'd, played music in a band, had an affair with a kin friend etc etc.... don't try and kid us that the LI system is not store centric.

Ugh back to legacies being an issue? Those are so easy to get I vendor them once I've made the LIs I want. Delving scrolls are easy barterables just running through the content. Crystals are hardly required and found in sufficient quantity in-game, imo (have you looked at the miniscule dps increase a crystal gives?). You can do very well with far less than 100k shards. Yes, you'll need a fair amount of +tier scrolls with marks&medallions, which you earn running all content (which is admittedly old).

 

So, as someone who has played since May 09, played every class to at least 60, raided on every class but Warden, had 9 level 85 characters (2 Captains), etc. etc. I can say confidently that you can do perfectly fine not ever buying a single LI thing from the store and that you can make better LIs than 99% of the LIs you lucked into pre revamp.

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Indeed, it was added for effect, though no doubt in some quarters it's seen as an extension of roleplay!

The kin I was in during MoM/SoM, Dark Templars, actually fell apart because of the kin leader having an affair with another member... I honestly can't comprehend it myself, but it does seem to exist.

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The kin I was in during MoM/SoM, Dark Templars, actually fell apart because of the kin leader having an affair with another member... I honestly can't comprehend it myself, but it does seem to exist.

 

I was in a kin a while back and the number of people in just that one kin who were involved with one another in one way, shape or form really surprised me. Took the concept of drama to a whole new series of levels.

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Ugh back to legacies being an issue? Those are so easy to get I vendor them once I've made the LIs I want. Delving scrolls are easy barterables just running through the content. Crystals are hardly required and found in sufficient quantity in-game, imo (have you looked at the miniscule dps increase a crystal gives?). You can do very well with far less than 100k shards. Yes, you'll need a fair amount of +tier scrolls with marks&medallions, which you earn running all content (which is admittedly old).

 

So, as someone who has played since May 09, played every class to at least 60, raided on every class but Warden, had 9 level 85 characters (2 Captains), etc. etc. I can say confidently that you can do perfectly fine not ever buying a single LI thing from the store and that you can make better LIs than 99% of the LIs you lucked into pre revamp.

 

but even you admit that the meds & marks grind is a necessity in order to obtain an on-par LI in order to end game with. Are people coming to lotro as new players or even those picking things up again from say back in the MoM or SoM days going to be able to aquire the quantity of currency needed? 

 

No. Chances are they'll go to the store. Even if someone only spends say 1500 TP to alleviate some of the grind, by having the grind in the first place, it is by the very essence of its design making the store at the least a tempting proposition and more like a necessity.

 

I know you don't agree with that. Perhaps your time in PC13 has skewed your views so that you cannot accept that Turbine would create a game systems that has as part of its intent, to generate TP sales. Same for mounted combat (the cosmetics), big battles (promotion points and build slots) and of course the class trait system itself (those four additional build slots for 100mc each).

 

You should open your eyes and accept the extent to which microtransactions have invaded most gameplay aspects of lotro. 

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If they really wanted to change the Trollshaws and Misty Mountains while preserving the feeling of exploration and mystery, they should have revamped the quests in the zone so that there were fewer quests, but that required more thought. The simplest way to do this would be to disable the quest tracker on the map and the minimap in those zones, to make the player read the text and explore the zone to find the objective based on the quest text. Each quest could be harder but also give more experience as a reward.

 

There are redundant zones for the Trollshaws and MM level ranges, so why not have different styles of quests in competing quest packs: Trollshaws and Misty Mountains for mystery and exploration and Evendim, Forochel, and Eregion for murderfest quick kill rampage questing?

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If they really wanted to change the Trollshaws and Misty Mountains while preserving the feeling of exploration and mystery, they should have revamped the quests in the zone so that there were fewer quests, but that required more thought. The simplest way to do this would be to disable the quest tracker on the map and the minimap in those zones, to make the player read the text and explore the zone to find the objective based on the quest text. Each quest could be harder but also give more experience as a reward.

 

There are redundant zones for the Trollshaws and MM level ranges, so why not have different styles of quests in competing quest packs: Trollshaws and Misty Mountains for mystery and exploration and Evendim, Forochel, and Eregion for murderfest quick kill rampage questing?

 

That would require forethought and effort.

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I had hoped beyond hope that they would have done a better job with the spider quests in the Trollshaws, but at least Turbine is consistent in their current (poor) development trend.

 

Some of the quests were combined to allow for less back-and-forth, but the final link of the quest chain involved standing on a specific spot near the Trapdoor Lair in order to get access to it.  The morale of the spiders remained unchanged, usually needing a duo at least in the mid-to-high 30's.  That, of course, requires that someone would actually buy the Trollshaws QP and be interested in running that gauntlet with you.

 

Making the spiders 5K critters, instead of 8-9K would have made it a small fellowship chain and soloable to 30's through 40's.  The Queen-mother quest in particular, which calls all spiders within a good radius (stealthed or non-stealthed) to attack when the Spider-mum is struck is a bit rough for a goodly number of folks, without thinning the herd a bit and hoping to have the whole business done before the (fast) respawns happen.

 

Also, they added some quests to include most of the mobs around Thoroniel, but for some reason they wanted you to ignore the wood-trolls that are intermingled with the bog-lurkers and huorns north of the spiders.  I don't get that.  With the exception of the epic quest where you fight alongside Legolas, there isn't a single quest that involves the wood-trolls.  It just seemed a natural thing to me to have a quest from Thoroniel for those, but Turbine ...

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but even you admit that the meds & marks grind is a necessity in order to obtain an on-par LI in order to end game with. Are people coming to lotro as new players or even those picking things up again from say back in the MoM or SoM days going to be able to aquire the quantity of currency needed? 

 

No. Chances are they'll go to the store. Even if someone only spends say 1500 TP to alleviate some of the grind, by having the grind in the first place, it is by the very essence of its design making the store at the least a tempting proposition and more like a necessity.

 

I know you don't agree with that. Perhaps your time in PC13 has skewed your views so that you cannot accept that Turbine would create a game systems that has as part of its intent, to generate TP sales. Same for mounted combat (the cosmetics), big battles (promotion points and build slots) and of course the class trait system itself (those four additional build slots for 100mc each).

 

You should open your eyes and accept the extent to which microtransactions have invaded most gameplay aspects of lotro

The grind for empowerment scrolls was far less post revamp than before. Pre revamp was 25 Sword Halls/7.5 Sammath Gul runs versus <1.5 Foundry runs afterwards. Hardly a necessity to get them from the store. My views have nothing to do with being on PC13.

 

I guess it can be tied to how much one plays. If you play a lot the store can easily be ignored. If you play not as often and still want everything now now now then, yeah, the store is going to be more attractive. I'm fine with cosmetics (whether warsteed or not) being in the store - that's the kind of stuff most people think should be in the store, no?

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I had hoped beyond hope that they would have done a better job with the spider quests in the Trollshaws, but at least Turbine is consistent in their current (poor) development trend.

 

Some of the quests were combined to allow for less back-and-forth, but the final link of the quest chain involved standing on a specific spot near the Trapdoor Lair in order to get access to it.  The morale of the spiders remained unchanged, usually needing a duo at least in the mid-to-high 30's.  That, of course, requires that someone would actually buy the Trollshaws QP and be interested in running that gauntlet with you.

 

Making the spiders 5K critters, instead of 8-9K would have made it a small fellowship chain and soloable to 30's through 40's.  The Queen-mother quest in particular, which calls all spiders within a good radius (stealthed or non-stealthed) to attack when the Spider-mum is struck is a bit rough for a goodly number of folks, without thinning the herd a bit and hoping to have the whole business done before the (fast) respawns happen.

 

Also, they added some quests to include most of the mobs around Thoroniel, but for some reason they wanted you to ignore the wood-trolls that are intermingled with the bog-lurkers and huorns north of the spiders.  I don't get that.  With the exception of the epic quest where you fight alongside Legolas, there isn't a single quest that involves the wood-trolls.  It just seemed a natural thing to me to have a quest from Thoroniel for those, but Turbine ...

 

Didn't there used to be a wood-troll quest?  I vaguely recall doing one way back when on my Champ, but I could be wrong.

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Didn't there used to be a wood-troll quest?  I vaguely recall doing one way back when on my Champ, but I could be wrong.

 

The only actual quest that involves wood-trolls as the main mob is I.4.8.  There is an epic quest before that, which involves Barachen mistaking a wood-troll in Giant Valley for an Ent, but that only amounts to one wood-troll, and that isn't much of a presence.

 

They've got two areas with a high presence of wood-trolls, the North Trollshaws and Giant Valley.  The one's in Giant Valley even have a mob named "Taushakh Sapling", harkening to the boss of I.4.8, but they aren't tied to a quest at all or made at all unique (save for the name).

 

Just seems a waste not to make any further use of these.

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The only actual quest that involves wood-trolls as the main mob is I.4.8.  There is an epic quest before that, which involves Barachen mistaking a wood-troll in Giant Valley for an Ent, but that only amounts to one wood-troll, and that isn't much of a presence.

 

They've got two areas with a high presence of wood-trolls, the North Trollshaws and Giant Valley.  The one's in Giant Valley even have a mob named "Taushakh Sapling", harkening to the boss of I.4.8, but they aren't tied to a quest at all or made at all unique (save for the name).

 

Just seems a waste not to make any further use of these.

 

I think the wood-trolls in Giant Valley - or one of them, at least - used to be tied to one of the Woodworker quests, back when we still had to do craft-specific quests to advance to certain early tiers.  I recall having to get an item from a wood-troll in Giant Valley, and I think the quest was granted by one of the NPCs at Barachen's camp.

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I think the wood-trolls in Giant Valley - or one of them, at least - used to be tied to one of the Woodworker quests, back when we still had to do craft-specific quests to advance to certain early tiers.  I recall having to get an item from a wood-troll in Giant Valley, and I think the quest was granted by one of the NPCs at Barachen's camp.

There's another Epic quest that involves woodtrolls, in Eryn Singor. Book 10, Chap. 7.

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The grind for empowerment scrolls was far less post revamp than before. Pre revamp was 25 Sword Halls/7.5 Sammath Gul runs versus <1.5 Foundry runs afterwards. Hardly a necessity to get them from the store. My views have nothing to do with being on PC13.

 

I guess it can be tied to how much one plays. If you play a lot the store can easily be ignored. If you play not as often and still want everything now now now then, yeah, the store is going to be more attractive. I'm fine with cosmetics (whether warsteed or not) being in the store - that's the kind of stuff most people think should be in the store, no?

 

Cosmetics are a given in any micro-transaction portal and as they have no impact on game-play then why not sell them. Not that much different than the haute couture industry - if someone wants to wear a £5000 frock when a £50 one is just as functional then that's their choice.

 

Back to LIs and legacies. an Anfalas Scroll of Empowerment costs 3782 marks and 586 meds. The last time I checked, a t2c sambrog run gives 800 odd marks and about 70 something meds given that one needs at least 9 scrolls for each LI, assuming that the goal is to have 6 legacies at tier 6, more if one adds additional major legacy slots. Double or treble for the other one or two LIs that will be required then it starts to add up.

 

Yet as I mentioned at the start of this discussion, that's not the real grind - getting the 10k plus shards is a substantial task for a new player. That's a lot of ixp and decon of many, many, many relics. 

 

However, we're assuming in all of this that the person has the appetite to grind group content over and over. What about the player who wants a decent LI but neither has that appetite or does not want to run group content at all? Those quantities of meds & marks are now beyond the reach of those. The store is very compelling and no doubt in my mind as to why it is a major revenue source for them.

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Cosmetics are a given in any micro-transaction portal and as they have no impact on game-play then why not sell them. Not that much different than the haute couture industry - if someone wants to wear a £5000 frock when a £50 one is just as functional then that's their choice.

 

Back to LIs and legacies. an Anfalas Scroll of Empowerment costs 3782 marks and 586 meds. The last time I checked, a t2c sambrog run gives 800 odd marks and about 70 something meds given that one needs at least 9 scrolls for each LI, assuming that the goal is to have 6 legacies at tier 6, more if one adds additional major legacy slots. Double or treble for the other one or two LIs that will be required then it starts to add up.

 

Yet as I mentioned at the start of this discussion, that's not the real grind - getting the 10k plus shards is a substantial task for a new player. That's a lot of ixp and decon of many, many, many relics. 

 

However, we're assuming in all of this that the person has the appetite to grind group content over and over. What about the player who wants a decent LI but neither has that appetite or does not want to run group content at all? Those quantities of meds & marks are now beyond the reach of those. The store is very compelling and no doubt in my mind as to why it is a major revenue source for them.

Yes, I will admit that the current empowerment scrolls, 3.5 years after the revamp, are a bit pricey (though they are still less grind than pre revamp to get one). During RoI it required less than 1.5 Foundry runs.

 

I do wish the refine option for getting shards allowed for mass refine options. That is a flaw I've mentioned before as well. Refining 1/4-1/3 of your relics and combining the rest can give you a decent amount of both shards and higher tier relics on top of what you can get from crafting. I don't find IXP to be something that's hard to get.

 

The person that didn't have the appetite to grind group content pre revamp likewise had no option to increase the tiers of their LIs. Indeed, they were entirely at the mercy of the RNG for all their legacies and tiers. That's setting aside the possibility that the ID yielded only 2 major legacies. This type of player is better off after the revamp, even if all they do is swap out legacies.

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The only actual quest that involves wood-trolls as the main mob is I.4.8.  There is an epic quest before that, which involves Barachen mistaking a wood-troll in Giant Valley for an Ent, but that only amounts to one wood-troll, and that isn't much of a presence.

 

They've got two areas with a high presence of wood-trolls, the North Trollshaws and Giant Valley.  The one's in Giant Valley even have a mob named "Taushakh Sapling", harkening to the boss of I.4.8, but they aren't tied to a quest at all or made at all unique (save for the name).

 

Just seems a waste not to make any further use of these.

 

Those wood-trolls always confused me. There are 3 different types of troll really. The earless, rounded-headed film copies. The big-nosed, big-bellied classic trolls. And the weird root/branch-limbed things that are these supposed 'wood-trolls'. But they just look weird. Nothing like trolls to me. And that big one in Giant's Valley is clearly not a wood-troll at all. It's an ent given an evil skinning. It makes no sense to me why they called it a wood-troll, or why the wood-trolls they do have look like they do. One of the few designs I didn't agree with even from the start.

Cosmetics are a given in any micro-transaction portal and as they have no impact on game-play then why not sell them. Not that much different than the haute couture industry - if someone wants to wear a £5000 frock when a £50 one is just as functional then that's their choice.

 

Because it leads to better designs being withheld for the sake of selling them. In your frock analogy, it would be the equivalent of a store offering a flat monthly rate to rent out any piece of clothing a customer wants, but then restricting some better looking items behind an additional purchase. If I'm paying for a game, I expect the full game. Not to be limited in any area because the company wants more money from me.

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Cosmetics are a given in any micro-transaction portal and as they have no impact on game-play then why not sell them. Not that much different than the haute couture industry - if someone wants to wear a £5000 frock when a £50 one is just as functional then that's their choice.

Game is not real world though.  When I fire up a game to have a little relaxation in the evening after a day, last thing I wanna see or think about is real money.

I wanna pay my money buying game and after I do that not having to have anything to do with purcharsing in-game again and I want to have access to 100% of the game without any grinds caused because game developer is selling in-game stuff.

 

It is that simple.

 

As for cosmetics.  There is game - Path of Exile, hack&slash game kinda like Diablo  really nice game.  It mainly sells stash space and cosmetics (mainly additional cool animations of attacks, etc).

I've played it and I've paid for additional storage 40$. My first Cash Shop purcharse for real money ever.

 

Then after playing it for longer time, after I "achieved" better in-game skill, better understanding of mechanics, character builds, etc  then I was like - hmm I want my game character to LOOK better as well  & then I realized that nicest looks are for $. 

 

That is not fun and killed my desire to play it.

 

Really I would prefer to pay 60-80$ for full game without any microtranactions rather than to have on-going fees or increased grinds (in games in which you can grind everything, but you can avoid it by paying $ in store).

 

 

Just logic 101.  Honest product for honest payment.   Microtranasctions ain't it.

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Because it leads to better designs being withheld for the sake of selling them. In your frock analogy, it would be the equivalent of a store offering a flat monthly rate to rent out any piece of clothing a customer wants, but then restricting some better looking items behind an additional purchase. If I'm paying for a game, I expect the full game. Not to be limited in any area because the company wants more money from me.

 

If a game can make enough cash selling cosmetics and not resort to "gaming" the core game design by introducing false grinds for essential character builds / gear and thus corral those people into the store, then I know which one I would take. It's the lesser of two evils. 

...

 

Really I would prefer to pay 60-80$ for full game without any microtranactions rather than to have on-going fees or increased grinds (in games in which you can grind everything, but you can avoid it by paying $ in store).

 

 

Just logic 101.  Honest product for honest payment.   Microtranasctions ain't it.

 

Those games are now very, very rare indeed. Are there any MMOs that don't have a on-the-side business selling exclusive cosmetics & mounts even if they are BTP or full sub? Wildstar and ESO spring to mind but the former will soon be opening its own store if the current slide in its fortunes continues.

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If a game can make enough cash selling cosmetics and not resort to "gaming" the core game design by introducing false grinds for essential character builds / gear and thus corral those people into the store, then I know which one I would take. It's the lesser of two evils. 

 

And that sort of thinking is why we're in this position in the first place! Give them an inch, they'll take a mile. Consumers need to make it clear they won't stand for being nickle and dimed. Unfortunately, there are too many who are either more than willing or don't particularly care, so games companies get away with it.

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