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"like God taking a photograph"... Nukes


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Umm, we were talking Nuclear explosions, Japan, US and WW2... why bring up Vietnam? 

 

Because you asked:

 

I said many US soldiers also have committed war crimes. Then you wrote:

Tell me about these 1000’s upon 1000’s of US soldiers committing war crimes again?

So I answer you.  I guess you didn't actually mean this literally.

 

Just not sure why you went off on the things that Japan did. No one ever questioned any of that.

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My body is ready

Relax, I am just asking for specifics. Names in particular. How they approached. Why there were separate proposals. I'm not taking such statements easily, because most of the time there are catches

I will not reach agreement with CrankyCat on this matter, not even if we forum-nuke eachother.   Still, I will say that at least some people in the US doubt (or have doubted at some point) the wisdo

Because you asked:

 

I said many US soldiers also have committed war crimes. Then you wrote:

So I answer you.  I guess you didn't actually mean this literally.

 

Just not sure why you went off on the things that Japan did. No one ever questioned any of that.

 

You say that Japan has repeatedly apologised. I, and others, say no they have not, not even close.

 

I list a hand full of atrocities that Japan could specifically state in their apology, these atrocities have a date stamp, a place where they occurred and a horrific outcome. Few were brought to justice because of other political and strategic priorities  ie USSR- reds under the bed.

 

Specific war crimes need to be stated in specific apologies to give them credibility. It says, we recognise the horror, we are truly sorry. This is what we have done to ensure it never happens again and then build a fucking shrine that people can cry at, piss on, or whatever, and hopefully they all move on.

 

No Japanese apology has ever stated a specific episode, when it occurred, why it occurred and how they will make amends to surviving family members. In the case of the numbers I listed in my "wall of text" albeit nicely paragraphed, Japan could never make monetary compensation... but they don't even recognise fault.

 

I would call that cowardly. 

 

CrankyCat

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I am not going to apply my own absolute level, but for relative levels of apology you will find that Japan's WW2 apologies are rated much lower than Germany's. Germany has been doing a reasonable job, especially with France, and they support Israel to the point where people are saying it's too much (unfair to Israel's opponents now).

By contrast, the Chinese in particular think of having gotten an even shorter stick of apologies from Japan than other nations, in their mind betraying the fact that the Japanese still consider them lesser human.

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Germany has quite rightly asked Japan to do better in the apology area.

 

What Germany has done over the years has been fantastic. No re education of the children... just plain truth about what happens when a people in a desperate but very proud nation get desperate themselves and what desperate steps they will take to retain that lost pride.

 

Japan should be learning great lessons from Germany, but for whatever reason, will not take that step.

 

CrankyCat

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Apologies are nonsense. You cannot apologise for what someone else did. Especially when the someone else was someone who lived 50, 100, 200 years before you. I'm English, in case it's not obvious. There have been a few calls from UK veterans over the years; the Japanese should apologise for the way they treated our PoWs!

 

Why?

 

They treated our PoWs according to their culture. Surrender was shameful, death was far better. Surrender made you less than human, so they treated PoWs as though they were less than human. It's not the way you think, it's not the way I think... Ultimately the Allies won the war. The Japanese culture that produced that mindset was very thoroughly dismantled. The Japanese now may have trouble dealing with that past. Shit. Wouldn't you? How would you feel having your nose rubbed in what a bunch of c**** your country is, or was? Resentful? Much? But they are not responsible for what happened then.

 

And had I or you, any of you, been born a Japanese male in 1919, make no mistake, I & you, we would have been bayoneting babies, using comfort women, beheading PoWs... We would have been products of the culture we were born into, just as we are now. Lucky us, we have been born into a more enlightened culture (allegedly). We defeated the Japanese, and we destroyed their social order, pretty much completely. They don't bayonet babies, etc, etc any more. Success. Gratitude? Would you be grateful or resentful? And why should the children, the grandchildren, the great-grandchildren, be held responsible for the sins of the fathers?

 

Parochial, by the way, means having a limited or narrow outlook, Cranky. I promise, I will come back to you on this. It's not about the south pacific. Maybe I'm wrong, but so far you give the impression that nothing the US ever did could have been wrong, that the US won WWII, that Europe was utterly wrecked without US assistance... That the world revolves around the US, basically. I'm sure you didn't mean to, but that's the impression that I, at least, am getting!

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If you actually visited Japan or talked to Japanese people, you would not think this.

I should have said "the Japanese government". But it is what it is.

As pointed out on the last page, actions speak louder than words. Germany didn't only apologize and pay and prosecute (not enough, but a lot). They also revamped their education system to at least since the 1970s bring up kids with very specific knowledge about how the Nazis came to power and what they did. So that it doesn't happen again. This element seems to be completely missing from Japanese education, and I have read reports that it is actually getting worse again and they scaled back on the admissions they had done in the past.

Germany goes as far as forbidden holocaust denial and display of Nazi symbols which is a bit overshooting the goal from an American standpoint but alas they do.

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Apologies are nonsense. You cannot apologise for what someone else did. Especially when the someone else was someone who lived 50, 100, 200 years before you. I'm English, in case it's not obvious. There have been a few calls from UK veterans over the years; the Japanese should apologise for the way they treated our PoWs!

 

Why?

 

They treated our PoWs according to their culture. Surrender was shameful, death was far better. Surrender made you less than human, so they treated PoWs as though they were less than human. It's not the way you think, it's not the way I think... Ultimately the Allies won the war. The Japanese culture that produced that mindset was very thoroughly dismantled. The Japanese now may have trouble dealing with that past. Shit. Wouldn't you? How would you feel having your nose rubbed in what a bunch of c**** your country is, or was? Resentful? Much? But they are not responsible for what happened then.

 

And had I or you, any of you, been born a Japanese male in 1919, make no mistake, I & you, we would have been bayoneting babies, using comfort women, beheading PoWs... We would have been products of the culture we were born into, just as we are now. Lucky us, we have been born into a more enlightened culture (allegedly). We defeated the Japanese, and we destroyed their social order, pretty much completely. They don't bayonet babies, etc, etc any more. Success. Gratitude? Would you be grateful or resentful? And why should the children, the grandchildren, the great-grandchildren, be held responsible for the sins of the fathers?

 

Parochial, by the way, means having a limited or narrow outlook, Cranky. I promise, I will come back to you on this. It's not about the south pacific. Maybe I'm wrong, but so far you give the impression that nothing the US ever did could have been wrong, that the US won WWII, that Europe was utterly wrecked without US assistance... That the world revolves around the US, basically. I'm sure you didn't mean to, but that's the impression that I, at least, am getting!

 

The apology is not nonsense.

 

Whilst future generations are not responsible for the actions of past generations, they most certainly have to deal with those actions.

 

It is fair to say the Anglo centric world has moved on, (with a bit of arm twisting from the US) and the so called apologies issued by (and retracted in some cases) various Japanese Govt heads have been accepted, the Asian world (China and the Korea’s in particular) has not.

 

China, ulterior motives or not, uses this particular hot poker with complete freedom, and Japan has never meaningfully tried to cool that ember.

 

There are 1.5 billion Chinese buying Japanese cars and electronics. Japan has been in an economic slump for 2 decades now, and like all other major nations, is not willing to take the hard medicine (Abeconomics will not work).

 

This generation of Japanese, through Govt approved and sanctioned editing of Japanese history, have no idea of the atrocities committed in WW2.

 

This generation of Japan have no idea what China and Korea is saying.

 

Do you see how this is not going to end well?

 

__________________________________________________________________________________

 

Ah, did the Allies commit War Crimes?

 

Of course they did. I will say though... We had to win, and We Won! To the Victor go the Spoils.

 

You put a gun in the hands of a person, and say shoot to kill, that will change that person, and some people do better than others in how they handle that change.

 

There are degrees of war crimes, Japan and Germany well and truly surpassed those degrees. At least Germany, albeit twisted beyond recognition, had some reason- I cringe saying that.

 

What was Japan's reason.. they didn't believe in surrender... 

 

There was extreme hate on both sides, and an extreme need for revenge from the victors at the end.

__________________________________________________________________________________

 

 I admire the USA greatly, the world would indeed be a terrible place without them, I am, though, not blind. The US, since the 1970’s, appears to be on some course of self destruction, especially in the economics area. It is like they want to implode.

 

They, as a nation, have become self loathing and apologetic.

 

Sorry to say, I have always imagined Winston Churchill punching the air in rapture when Japan attacked Pearl Harbour. He had wanted and practically begged Roosevelt to get into the war.

 

Of course USA swayed events on the European continent. 100,000’s of fresh recruits. The USA, I will say, did have the comfort of picking their fights in Europe.

 

USA definitely swayed events in the Pacific and after the wars, when between them and USSR, Europe and the globe was quite literally carved up on ideological grounds and turned Japan from a broken military machine into the 2nd greatest economic power in a few decades.

 

USA also assisted and funded Great Britain and USSR in resources, material and food. It is how, I think, the USA has/had this weird view that war is good for the economy.

 

Great Britain was licking its wounds years after the war. Food rations did not finish until mid 1950's for god sake.

 

Sleeping Giant indeed!

 

CrankyCat

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