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You can can have any impression of me you want, I really don't give a rat's ass. Yes, that's me the bandwagon jumper! ./facepalm

 

Lol thanks for quoting that because I've got the guy on ignore. It always makes me laugh when someone has to resort to trying to rubbish the integrity for someone's opinion in order to get a point across. So, Spidey, because you take the contrary viewpoint you're just a blatant opportunist yet anyone because there are people who agree with him obviously means that he is in the right!. What a load of old rubbish!!!!

 

And on that note I'm off. Goodnight all!!!

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Regarding our reputation, my only real concern is that I'd prefer that we not get too nasty towards newcomers and people who still enjoy LOTRO, because we should want fresh faces and new perspectives

Ugh, this is getting stupid.   1. I think some of you are choosing to assume the worst about all of Bucko's posts because some of them come off the wrong way. I didn't see any difference in his c-wo

What I've always liked about this forum is that it has always felt natural. It was a place where conservations could take place. Conversations start on a particular subject and finish on an often comp

Ugh, this is getting stupid.

 

1. I think some of you are choosing to assume the worst about all of Bucko's posts because some of them come off the wrong way. I didn't see any difference in his c-word post from others on that topic. But it's been decided that you aren't going to like anything he says, and we all know that, so do we really need to derail every single thread with this silly bickering?

 

2. Some of you are clear that you're going to use words that make some of us uncomfortable no matter what anyone says, fine. We asked nicely, you don't wish to respect the request, that's your right. We're just a bunch of random strangers posting on an internet forum and nobody owes anybody anything. I don't at all get the extreme arguments that we're somehow classist or anti whatever country or pro book-burning because of a request to lay off of one specific word. This has nothing at all to do with profanity in general, and it isn't even about words being 'sexist'.

 

The only thing I'd add to Loth's earlier eloquent explanation (for anyone who cares) is this: when women are the victims of physical or sexual violence, the perpetrators use words like 'bitch,' 'cunt,' 'whore,' etc. to dehumanize the target of their aggression and deflect blame for the attack away from themselves and onto the victim, implying that if only she weren't such a *whatever*, he wouldn't need to be bashing her head in. For people who have survived such violence or who know others who have, words like that can be uncomfortable triggers, or even painful ones. 

 

Does that mean that men need to censor themselves and walk on eggshells every time a female might be listening in (since I know that's the next question that will be asked)? Of course not. It's my responsibility to tell you what makes me uncomfortable, not for you to guess. But in my universe, it's considered common courtesy that most people are willing to extend to one another when someone makes a polite request to please consider that x makes me uncomfortable. I don't say 'fuck' around my parents, for example, because it makes them crazy. Not because it's a rule or a demand, or even because I agree with their perspective on that word, but because I respect them and don't want to make things uncomfortable for them. I don't consider it odd or unreasonable to be mindful of others in that way. But whatever. It's your forum.

Actually, no, I wouldn't use that word on these forums and I haven't, except in this thread, and that was to point out, with humor, that it's context that matters, But I can concede, that to the women on these forums, it's objectionable, it won't be used by me.

 

As to Bucko, you yourself state that some his post come across the wrong way. I can't speak for Doro, LV, or Bango, but that's exactly what I was pointing out in my own way. Bucko came here with both barrels blazing, acting like he owned the place, and that's the perception I have of him. He'll either learn to deal with that perception or he won't. Doesn't matter to me either way.

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I think bucko was attacked too strongly. But I can't really blame bango or anyone for posting if he thought bucko's comments were offensive.

 

I totally see how his posts could bring up a reaction due to how they were worded (meaning, I don't think there was "nothing" there), but I also think he was attacked pretty harshly when his comment could have just as easily been ignored.

 

He has gotten a lot of grief on these forums, and it might have been kinder to just ignore his post, even if it sounded condescending. But whatever - a small post of his raised a storm.

 

Some people (including me) have said some outrageous or stupid things here, and people were kind enough to accept them anyway. Not that bucko has said anything outrageous or stupid at all, imo. He just got into a few thread fights.

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As to Bucko, you yourself state that some his post come across the wrong way. I can't speak for Doro, LV, or Bango, but that's exactly what I was pointing out in my own way. Bucko came here with both barrels blazing, acting like he owned the place, and that's the perception I have of him. He'll either learn to deal with that perception or he won't. Doesn't matter to me either way.

(uses of 'you' are generic here) Everyone's perceptions are different, and yours are as valid as anyone else's. I just don't want us to turn into what we hate about the OF. Damojo used to troll all my posts just because they were by me. Didn't matter whether they were critical of Turbine or full of fangirl--because I said it, it had to be taken badly. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's seen that over there.

 

Just because I didn't see what some others saw in bucko's post doesn't mean they saw it wrong. But I seem to remember that we used to handle these things differently here. For example, Quinn once saw something in an OF post of mine that I didn't intend, he called me on it, I explained what I really meant, and then we understood each other. Problem solved. Is there a reason everyone (ALL sides) can't just take a deep breath and make an effort to understand each other, or at least stop arguing about it, since it never accomplishes anything except the not-good kind of thread derails?

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Hmmm... the conversation in this thread has got me thinking... Ouchie!

And it's deep, DEEP thinking.

 

I find myself agreeing with the ladies.

What's more I prefer ladies in all aspects of life save their taste in movies.

Hmmm... perhaps I need to inquire about "the change".

I've always been rather attached to my bits and pieces... but this thread...

As a male I have also found endless enjoyment in the scratching of my butt and the front of my butt = do women?

Speaking of my butt... do y'all think my butt looks fat?

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(uses of 'you' are generic here) Everyone's perceptions are different, and yours are as valid as anyone else's. I just don't want us to turn into what we hate about the OF. Damojo used to troll all my posts just because they were by me. Didn't matter whether they were critical of Turbine or full of fangirl--because I said it, it had to be taken badly. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's seen that over there.

 

Just because I didn't see what some others saw in bucko's post doesn't mean they saw it wrong. But I seem to remember that we used to handle these things differently here. For example, Quinn once saw something in an OF post of mine that I didn't intend, he called me on it, I explained what I really meant, and then we understood each other. Problem solved. Is there a reason everyone (ALL sides) can't just take a deep breath and make an effort to understand each other, or at least stop arguing about it, since it never accomplishes anything except the not-good kind of thread derails?

I will say that your on my list of top posters at this point.  I call it a list of personal heroes.   lol

I have admitted to having a disagreement with Bucko his first couple posts in. 

At first he seemed like the type that I am weary of on the O board.  But I took his terms out of text and me had a group hug.   We worked things out.  And I respect him. 

 

But the snarkiness of some of his posts in this thread?   His opinion of proper language when ladies are present  is one thing.  Calling folks keyboard tough guys and delusional is a bit different.  That's name calling. 

 

Can the posters he called out take it?  Sure.  After all the back and forth bickering though about a topic of a swear word (used for genitalia) that I only see in I hate Richard Heaton threads, is it necessary?   It's almost like we have 10 MAR- whatevers around here trying to make rules  for this forum.   Up until this point I thought we policed each other well enough, unless you count the only closed thread which is when Brrokk departed to the west. 

 

And the entire thing was over semantics. 

The only thing missing was RKL with his bright cyan highlighter. 

From what I've seen recently anyone professing to enjoy the game to any degree gets "educated".  They either fall in line or worse, something like this thread happens.  Bucko took a ton of hits from us his first week because he said he liked the game.  Some of the jabs he received were earned.  But I went back and read his posts it this is what it probably stemmed from:

Or better yet, Drul...you could stop trolling on this overly negative site (it should be called IhatelotrobutIcantletitgo.com) and maybe go outside and get some fresh air.

My advice to Bucko at this point is if you have something to say, say it.  But please refrain from calling posters names.  The above is getting personal to get an emotional response.  We all know the people that do that....

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Quinn, that was my first post made weeks ago. If that is going to be the basis of someone's decision to argue or assume the worst of any post (like the one I made in this particular thread) what is the point of contributing. And as for actual name calling...look back at the posts, I think you'll find I never called anyone a prick, moron, thug for hire, etc. Those are personal attacks with intent. But apparently what I've said is somehow worse...but I'm new so I apparently don't get the free pass other folks do.

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 After all the back and forth bickering though about a topic of a swear word (used for genitalia) that I only see in I hate Richard Heaton threads, is it necessary?   It's almost like we have 10 MAR- whatevers around here trying to make rules  for this forum.   Up until this point I thought we policed each other well enough, unless you count the only closed thread which is when Brrokk departed to the west. 

 

 

I'm glad you mentioned MarV in the context of this discussion as it's timely that I remind everyone of the following thread:

 

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?534534-Aldburg-Crafting-Hall-gt-Aldburg-dueling-center&highlight=aldburg+spar+craft

 

Well worth the read, though in places it can be hard going. You'll see that I too was arguing in favour of people being allowed to spar wherever they wished not, as with the use of the C word, because I like to spar day in day out around those making whatever, but mostly because I take umbrage with those who wish to enforce their own viewpoints on others.

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The only thing I'd add to Loth's earlier eloquent explanation (for anyone who cares) is this: when women are the victims of physical or sexual violence, the perpetrators use words like 'bitch,' 'cunt,' 'whore,' etc. to dehumanize the target of their aggression and deflect blame for the attack away from themselves and onto the victim, implying that if only she weren't such a *whatever*, he wouldn't need to be bashing her head in. For people who have survived such violence or who know others who have, words like that can be uncomfortable triggers, or even painful ones.

Well, that IS about sexism, then. Assuming we use those words for women only and men never get insulted when they're beaten up. I've been in enough fights to know what people shout, and if you live where I live, it tends to be 'I'll smash your fucking head in, you fucking cunt'. And men can be called dicks, bastards, faggots, cocks, etc and any variation in-between. But do we ask people not to use those words because men have also 'survived such violence'? Of course not. I don't see why women should claim a monopoly on abuse either. If anything, that's a form of sexism in itself.

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Doro, I don't know how much you know about slavery in the US and the history of racism against blacks. If someone black asked not to be called nigger or some other quite bad slur, and then you came and said, "well white people are  called names too, etc. etc. - but I don't care if anyone used a white term like cracker, so why do you care?" ... that would be completely diminishing the existence of anti-black racism in history and currently also. There is a huge amount of discrimination in the US still against blacks. Being black means in the US someone will not rent you an apartment or be willing to give you a basic job just because you are black. Not always, but it happens a lot.

A majority of white Americans want to think it almost never happens though. They want to deny racism exists in the US.

 

So the names that sometimes white people are called, is quite different than the names people have used as racial slurs against black people in the US.

__________________________

 

Guy's view of sexism - it's not a big deal. it doesn't even happen much. I am not sexist. why even talk about it?

 

Women's view of sexism - I have to deal with it in some form every single day. Of course it exists.

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Doro, I don't know how much you know about slavery in the US and the history of racism against blacks. If someone black asked not to be called nigger or some other quite bad slur, and then you came and said, "well white people are  called names too, etc. etc. - but I don't care if anyone used a white term like cracker, so why do you care?" ... that would be completely diminishing the existence of anti-black racism in history and currently also. There is a huge amount of discrimination in the US still against blacks. Being black means in the US someone will not rent you an apartment or be willing to give you a basic job just because you are black. Not always, but it happens a lot.

A majority of white Americans want to think it almost never happens though. They want to deny racism exists in the US.

 

So the names that sometimes white people are called, is quite different than the names people have used as racial slurs against black people in the US.

__________________________

 

Guy's view of sexism - it's not a big deal. it doesn't even happen much. I am not sexist. why even talk about it?

 

Women's view of sexism - I have to deal with it in some form every single day. Of course it exists.

 

Very different scenario. If a person asks not to be CALLED something, fair do's. If a person asks for a word not to be used in general, that's a different kettle of fish.

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Very different scenario. If a person asks not to be CALLED something, fair do's. If a person asks for a word not to be used in general, that's a different kettle of fish.

 

Not really. I can think of some very racist terms. If some black asked not to use the term nigger, anyone decent from the US (so who knew how it was used) would agree not to use that term.

 

You were the one who brought up the thing about other names that men were called. That is your argument. And the discussion about c*nt is about a word used when calling someone something.

 

No one is criticizing you or saying you are wrong to use that word. They are just asking for you and others not to use it here. You can be a jerk and use it any way. Probably no one would care. You don't have to argue that there is nothing wrong with that word. Nobody will change their mind and suddenly agree with that argument. Some words have a history of being used in a very oppressive and degrading way.

 

Nothing is wrong with speaking up against words that are sexist or racist. If someone was being racist - using clearly racist words - I would probably say some thing also. That is all. At that is why I am saying anything about the C swear.

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The use of the "C" word and the "N" word are poles apart in terms of how they are used and the intent behind their use, in the UK that is. When used as an insult, the "C" word is abusive, derogatory and certainty inflammatory but in my experience it's not one that is directed towards one specific sex nor does it carry with it sexual connotations. Certainly where I grew up the use of that word normally was the precursor to something or other kicking off. Again, it's all down to context.

 

The N word though has a history of the enslavement, maltreatment, abuse, murder, segregation, humiliation and torture of people because of the colour of their skin and it's use in modern day society is to remind the recipient of the history of the treatment of said race. Similar to how kids when I was young used to insult Jewish people by making a hissing sound and also no doubt similar to the term "Boy" when directed against someone who is AfroCaribbean in origin. 

 

So, whereas the 'C' word has begun to creep into mainstream use in the UK - see the The Thick of It video I posted earlier - that is nothing to the issues caused by what I would call the trivialisation of the 'N' word in films such as the "blaxpolitation" movies and more recently films such as Pulp Fiction. 

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Not really. I can think of some very racist terms. If some black asked not to use the term nigger, anyone decent from the US (so who knew how it was used) would agree not to use that term.

Probably because it's been built up more than it should be in this day and age.

 

You were the one who brought up the thing about other names that men were called. That is your argument. And the discussion about c*nt is about a word used when calling someone something.

I responded to the idea that just because a woman can be called something, that means the word is best not used at all. And the word can be used to call someone else something as well, which is where I'd prefer freedom in it. Direct it at a poster, bit much. Direct it at some random person, meh.

 

No one is criticizing you or saying you are wrong to use that word. They are just asking for you and others not to use it here. You can be a jerk and use it any way. Probably no one would care. You don't have to argue that there is nothing wrong with that word. Nobody will change their mind and suddenly agree with that argument. Some words have a history of being used in a very oppressive and degrading way.

No one is criticising or saying I'm wrong to use it... and then you follow it up by saying you're a jerk if you use it. Do you not see a problem, there?

 

Nothing is wrong with speaking up against words that are sexist or racist. If someone was being racist - using clearly racist words - I would probably say some thing also. That is all. At that is why I am saying anything about the C swear.

And I'm saying it ISN'T sexist to use it. In fact, most of the time I use it I don't even mean 'vagina'. I've even used it in a positive way. It's where I'm from. If you use it specifically to be sexist, then of course it is. If you're using it for the sake of profanity, then it isn't. Same with racist terms. You'll note a lot of black people also call each other 'nigger'. Clearly it isn't the word that's the issue, rather people's perception of it.

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Same with racist terms. You'll note a lot of black people also call each other 'nigger'. Clearly it isn't the word that's the issue, rather people's perception of it.

It is NOT the person's perception of a word that is the problem. So some black asks a white person not to use the word nigger, and you are going to blame them and say it is their perception of the word that is the problem. When quite possibly their great grandparent was a slave. It is a word that has a strong history - you can't just blame the person asking you not to use that word.

 

Same thing with the c*nt. It has a very strong negative history. Maybe no one cares what you say off the forum or in your social circles. That is what is I meant by not criticizing. I am not even saying using the word is wrong. But here, in an international forum, where several people asked you to not use that word, then I am saying you can say "screw you, I can do what I want" (and be a jerk or uncaring about others), or you can be considerate and maybe not use it - which doesn't seem too much of a problem - to not use one word.

 

I get the problem with this word - you use that word where you live and don't think it is sexist. Maybe it's not - in your social circle. It the US it usually is sexist when used. I guess I am saying I could care less what you say off forum. I don't care too much what you say in this forum (what words you use). But I do think it is being a jerk or uncaring to use it here where people know that word as highly offensive.

 

I just don't think you are going to convince anyone that using that word is fine in this social group. To me, it is exactly like using the word nigger when someone black has asked you not to. Maybe the only difference is that that word is used differently in the UK, where in the US it is very sexist and used as a slur against women.

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It is NOT the person's perception of a word that is the problem. So some black asks a white person not to use the word nigger, and you are going to blame them and say it is their perception of the word that is the problem. When quite possibly their great grandparent was a slave. It is a word that has a strong history - you can't just blame the person asking you not to use that word.

Well yeah, you can. Their great grandparent was a slave (well, more likely further down than that). So what? I've got ancestors who have suffered things as well. So have most people. But that wasn't me that suffered it. I didn't know them. Same with them. If anything, it was a good thing for their descendants who now live in the US (as others have said, the country of opportunity). If I'm told I can't use a word that they use all the time, well that's racist to be honest. I can't use a word because of the colour of my skin.

 

Same thing with the c*nt. It has a very strong negative history. Maybe no one cares what you say off the forum or in your social circles. That is what is I meant by not criticizing. I am not even saying using the word is wrong. But here, in an international forum, where several people asked you to not use that word, then I am saying you can say "screw you, I can do what I want" (and be a jerk or uncaring about others), or you can be considerate and maybe not use it - which doesn't seem too much of a problem - to not use one word.

 

I get the problem with this word - you use that word where you live and don't think it is sexist. Maybe it's not - in your social circle. It the US it usually is sexist when used. I guess I am saying I could care less what you say off forum. I don't care too much what you say in this forum (what words you use). But I do think it is being a jerk or uncaring to use it here where people know that word as highly offensive.

That's exactly my point. They've set up that premise. If I say 'I don't want you to use the word 'and' any more because it offends me', and then say if you continue to use it you're a jerk, that's setting up a situation where you either do as I say or I label you a jerk. Unless it's directed that them, there is no word I will not use.

 

I just don't think you are going to convince anyone that using that word is fine in this social group. To me, it is exactly like using the word nigger when someone black has asked you not to. Maybe the only difference is that that word is used differently in the UK, where in the US it is very sexist and used as a slur against women.

Probably very different. And wouldn't it be sexist (I almost wrote 'sexiest'... oooh matron) to imply we can't use certain words for the sake of women? It implies that they can't handle the use of those words, but men can.

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I think it is all about degrees. And you can't completely say there is no reason to be considerate to other people's feelings. If someone Jewish who was in a German concentration camp, asked me not to use certain words which were related to the holocaust, I would say, ok.

 

If someone black asked me not to use certain words, I would also say Ok - especially if the words were used as racial slurs and related to slavery. Just like some words are used against women int he US. 

 

I wouldn't say this: in the US we don't use that word against Jews, so even though you were in a concentration camp, you should just forget about it and not ask me to not use a word. I don't think it is different - c*nt is a very strong, negative swear in the US.

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