Jump to content
LOTROCommunity

What the hell is happening to this forum with regards to moderation?


Recommended Posts

As you know, there are many lurkers here. I have spoken to quite a few and one recently told me that its actually a good thing that forums such as the LOTRO Community exists. Because while you're all "busy shitting in your own waterhole, you're not spoiling anyone else's". (This was not a reference to the official LOTRO forums). Make of that what you will.

 

"One" told me a similar thing not to long ago, I wonder if it was the same one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 479
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Regarding our reputation, my only real concern is that I'd prefer that we not get too nasty towards newcomers and people who still enjoy LOTRO, because we should want fresh faces and new perspectives

Ugh, this is getting stupid.   1. I think some of you are choosing to assume the worst about all of Bucko's posts because some of them come off the wrong way. I didn't see any difference in his c-wo

What I've always liked about this forum is that it has always felt natural. It was a place where conservations could take place. Conversations start on a particular subject and finish on an often comp

It is women who are offended by that word.

Being a "big boy" doesn't make you an authority on what is offensive to women, any more than being white allows me to tell minorities what insulting names ("nigger", "kike", "spic", etc) they're allowed to be offended by.

In this case, I think a PM is an appropriate moderator action. Polite people don't wish to give offense to others. If you were a polite person, you would be grateful. If you want to advertise that you're rude and insensitive to others, then just keep using it.

The amusing part of it is, i used it to descibe Sap, and i think the majority of the women in here who have suffered his wraith and abuse of power like i have (and many others i might add) would more than likely have no problem themselves throwing it him too! And btw, like someone else said, it's all about context. I never have, nor would i ever chuck it out there at/too/referencing/ whatever to anyone else BUT lil' ricky. He more than deserves it IMO, and i am pretty sure a lot of others here would agree. But, like i said before, it wasnt just that. Some other rediculous crap came at me too, much milder than the use of the C word in that context, in that thread, long long ago when Darm arrived on the scene here. Trying to construe a freakin joke about the heydt's into a real world threat was what really took the cake for me. There is a click on any board wherever you go, and a few here became adversarial right off the bat, because they knew who i was on the OF boards, as i have had some rumbles witrh a few of them, which i know to be true from the old neg rep system on the OF's. Some here took delight in throwing constant neg rep at me, and sending little messages along to let me know they did it over there too. You know who you are. So do i.

 

But until the whole sap leaving thing last week, i hadnt posted here in a very long time. One thing about me is i call a spade a spade, you may not like the way i sometimes say it, most dont as i have a tongue like a stiletto. Your either on one side of the fence or the other with me. I am used to that, because thats how it is in real life too. I just think the whole problem in my case is, Darm's been on the other side of that fence with me from the start, and after the rediculous Heydt bullshit, thats when i took a powder until the SAP shit last week. Saps had me 1 point away from perma for almost three years now, knowing what he would do on the OF at the slightest inkling of anything negative or even indifferent about his leaving on the OF's woulda brought down his ban hammer. I knew full well he would be over here reading that thread, thats what brought me back with some final big digs at that c....wait "twat". Mission accomplished, could care less what happens from here.

 

But i do call a spade a spade, aint that right Darm?

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is women who are offended by that word.

Being a "big boy" doesn't make you an authority on what is offensive to women, any more than being white allows me to tell minorities what insulting names ("nigger", "kike", "spic", etc) they're allowed to be offended by.

In this case, I think a PM is an appropriate moderator action. Polite people don't wish to give offense to others. If you were a polite person, you would be grateful. If you want to advertise that you're rude and insensitive to others, then just keep using it.

 

However, I think there is a larger point: what is offensive to some is not offensive to others. I note that you say it's women who are offended by the word, yet I've met men who were offended by it and women who weren't. Where do we draw the line? Different words will offend different people. So do we start banning all potentially offensive words, do we ban no words (just the context, as in if it's directed at someone else) or do we start drawing arbitrary lines over words for the sake of feelings?

 

Personally, I see no word as offensive really unless it's directed at someone as an insult. But if I did, I wouldn't expect other people to stop using a particular word for my sake.

Link to post
Share on other sites

As you know, there are many lurkers here. I have spoken to quite a few and one recently told me that its actually a good thing that forums such as the LOTRO Community exists. Because while you're all "busy shitting in your own waterhole, you're not spoiling anyone else's". (This was not a reference to the official LOTRO forums). Make of that what you will.

Completely unfair categorisation considering most of us here engage in respectful discourse. So what do I make of that? Not much as it sounds like an uninformed, biased opinion that made that statement.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Completely unfair categorisation considering most of us here engage in respectful discourse. So what do I make of that? Not much as it sounds like an uninformed, biased opinion that made that statement.

 

Possibly so, but this is the perception that exists about these forums as a result of a few people here. Life as we all know is often shaped by erroneous assumptions and incorrect data.

 

Guilt by association and all that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Possibly so, but this is the perception that exists about these forums as a result of a few people here. Life as we all know is often shaped by erroneous assumptions and incorrect data.

 

Guilt by association and all that.

That doesn't make it right and I will continue to point out all the good people here. It's tiring to have us all labeled as such horrid people, when that is so very far from the truth.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

That doesn't make it right and I will continue to point out all the good people here. It's tiring to have us all labeled as such horrid people, when that is so very far from the truth.

 

Exactly. All you nice people balance out my dickishness (that allowed?) by far... I think... okay, not that much, but still enough to mean people shouldn't assume bluntness is the norm here.

Link to post
Share on other sites

That doesn't make it right and I will continue to point out all the good people here. It's tiring to have us all labeled as such horrid people, when that is so very far from the truth.

 

Indeed. I do the same. However mud sticks rightly or wrongly. Expect to be frequently tired.

Link to post
Share on other sites

That doesn't make it right and I will continue to point out all the good people here. It's tiring to have us all labeled as such horrid people, when that is so very far from the truth.

 

I'm not sure I care that much.

 

This community stopped being a lotro fan community many years ago. Instead it is mostly a community of people who do still or once did play Lotro and share common interests, gaming, MMOs, etc... and yes some Lotro stuff. I don't see a need to try to appeal to a wider audience and "recruit" new members. Which is the same reason I don't see the need for the recent moderation. We have always been reasonably good at self moderation and calling out when something or someone crosses some line, admittedly that line may be beyond what some more sensitive types would like but they aren't part of this community, they just sit on the outside criticising and calling us "malcontents", but really, who gives a shit?

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Wrath of Winter, on 04 Aug 2014 - 15:20, said:

Someone gets it.

 

 

Two quotations come to mind with the exact same message.

 

"Repression may be said to produce the object that it comes to deny." - Judith Butler (Gender Trouble).   Or, to put it even simpler:

 

"By opposing something, you maintain it." - Ursula LeGuin (The Left Hand of Darkness)

 

How one reacts to something determines how it's perceived. Censorship constructs the very monsters it purports to condemn. Certain things have power to offend only because people keep giving them that power.

 

 

 

nosam9, on 04 Aug 2014 - 16:30, said:

 (1) Tell me, how would have "not opposing" South African Apartheid,  (2) or slavery,  (3) or lack of women's rights in the early 1900s, or (4)  racism in the US against blacks, have worked out?

 

That is just foolishness. If someone stood up to racism in the south in the US - clear racism - and then someone came along and said "opposing it, just maintains it, blah blah, blah" it would be a worthless statement.

 

 (5) The whole point is, some of you, and many people - at least in the US - want to completely deny sexism and racism exists. Or want to say well it exists in some extreme cases, but in general, it does not exist at all. 

 

 (6) Saying using a term like "cunt" is not sexist, or not part of a historically, widespread system of sexism - is just denying it, probably because you have never really learned or thought about sexism in any deep way. I am not saying using that word is wrong inherently, or means the user has a bad intent, but it is clearly part of a system of sexism that is embodied in our language. 

 

Of course some of you will deny that, and try to say words have no power. But that is exactly the state of sexism and racism in the US today. It exists. Women experience it. And a ton of people don't understand it, and minimize it, and deny it, and try to justify their actions as being totally blameless.

 

(7) Someone raised in a society with a ton of sexism in the language, may not be so much to blame, but you can say that them taking part in it, using sexist language, has no effect. Think of a kid using very racist language in the US south 60 years ago. Sure, you can decide to not blame the kid, but you can't deny their language is racist and can have a quite bad effect (and is part of a larger system/general practice of racism in their culture).

 

(8) So honestly, I would say you don't "get it" and are just making excuses for bad behavior. If you use sexist language, you are perpetuating a bad system that is oppressive. 

 

People who are not affected by sexism, or racism (and some who are affected) really want to tell themselves there is nothing wrong with their actions - that they are blameless. Most people want to hear and tell others a story that makes nothing wrong with their actions.

 

(9) Ultimately, if you say something sexist, or racist - it is sexist or racist. Context or intent is not an excuse.

 

 

I am going to spin this on its head, politely J

 

(1)  I would say the Apartheid regimes’ censorship laws did not work out too well for them.

 

(2)  If Censorship was in place, highly likely your greatest President ever (IMO) would not have been permitted to say this:

 

“But, slavery is good for some people! ! ! As a good thing, slavery is strikingly peculiar, in this, that it is the only good thing which no man ever seeks the good of, for himself.

Abraham Lincoln

 

(3)  If censorship was workable and enforced, The Suffragists around the world would have not have anything to show for the labours

 

 Lack of censorship worked in favour for Rights of Women. Affirmative Action has only created an entitlement mentality and animosity.

 

(4)  How is the existing Censorship on Racism performing for you? I would say it is a complete failure.

 

(5)  US censored version: the black doctor/ black lawyer/ black stock broker/ black astronaut/ black accountant/ black small business owner/ black fighter pilot/ 

 

Reality version: a black cash machine operator, black security guard, black street sweeper/ snow remover person, Black supermarket shelf stacker, black MacDonalds burger slapper aged 50 years old. Black crack head. Black Gangsta. Black cleaner.

 

Affirmative action at its best!

 

(6)  By censoring and banning the word, you make it far more powerful, than merely a word, you create a shock value that draws the attention of all and sundry.

 

You want to remove its stigma and power, allow it freely as it is now, and witness yet again, how few times it is used.

 

"By opposing something, you maintain it." - Ursula LeGuin (The Left Hand of Darkness)

 

The use of the word has evolved and moved, The word sounds harsh and horrible and is Unisexual, it maintains power, hence it is used in great effect.

(7) So those living in ghettos get to practise free speech, those on world wide forums must be censored due to political correctness?

 

In an alternative universe, in the real world, there was a thing called Personal Responsibility.

 

 (8)Censorship cures Bad Behaviour?! No. Censorship clamps a lid on bad behaviour until it boils over and creates havoc and physical repression. It suppresses feelings and does not allow discussion and attitude changes.

 

(9) Saying something does not make it true! 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure I care that much.

 

This community stopped being a lotro fan community many years ago. Instead it is mostly a community of people who do still or once did play Lotro and share common interests, gaming, MMOs, etc... and yes some Lotro stuff. I don't see a need to try to appeal to a wider audience and "recruit" new members. Which is the same reason I don't see the need for the recent moderation. We have always been reasonably good at self moderation and calling out when something or someone crosses some line, admittedly that line may be beyond what some more sensitive types would like but they aren't part of this community, they just sit on the outside criticising and calling us "malcontents", but really, who gives a shit?

 

That is possibly the best approach to take. As I stated, these forums have found a level that seems to be acceptable to those who use them the most. 

 

It can also be argued whether this forum really needs to be called The LOTRO Community anymore, although I appreciate that a change in domain etc would be inconvenient.

Link to post
Share on other sites

However, I think there is a larger point: what is offensive to some is not offensive to others. I note that you say it's women who are offended by the word, yet I've met men who were offended by it and women who weren't. Where do we draw the line? Different words will offend different people. So do we start banning all potentially offensive words, do we ban no words (just the context, as in if it's directed at someone else) or do we start drawing arbitrary lines over words for the sake of feelings?

 

Personally, I see no word as offensive really unless it's directed at someone as an insult. But if I did, I wouldn't expect other people to stop using a particular word for my sake.

 

This.

 

My female Hair dresser is a highly talented artist with as cesspool of a mouth. The C-word flies out of her mouth like bullets to a machine gun. Absolute laugh!

 

The limits to apply are personal limits. Honestly, how many times has the word been used?

 

Personal responsibility and sense of occasion rules.

 

No to Censorship.

 

CrankyCat

Link to post
Share on other sites

snip

 

Personally, I see no word as offensive really unless it's directed at someone as an insult. But if I did, I wouldn't expect other people to stop using a particular word for my sake.

 

Doro, you are living in a 21st century Nanny State, Great Britain. Allow me to make a slight modification to your statement:

 

"I see no word as offensive really unless it's directed at someone as an insult. But if I did, I would expect other people to stop using a particular word for my sake."

 

CrankyCat

Link to post
Share on other sites

Tell me, how would have "not opposing" South African Apartheid, or slavery, or lack of women's rights in the early 1900s, or racism in the US against blacks, have worked out?

 

That is just foolishness. If someone stood up to racism in the south in the US - clear racism - and then someone came along and said "opposing it, just maintains it, blah blah, blah" it would be a worthless statement.

 

The whole point is, some of you, and many people - at least in the US - want to completely deny sexism and racism exists. Or want to say well it exists in some extreme cases, but in general, it does not exist at all. 

 

Saying using a term like "cunt" is not sexist, or not part of a historically, widespread system of sexism - is just denying it, probably because you have never really learned or thought about sexism in any deep way. I am not saying using that word is wrong inherently, or means the user has a bad intent, but it is clearly part of a system of sexism that is embodied in our language. 

 

Of course some of you will deny that, and try to say words have no power. But that is exactly the state of sexism and racism in the US today. It exists. Women experience it. And a ton of people don't understand it, and minimize it, and deny it, and try to justify their actions as being totally blameless.

 

Someone raised in a society with a ton of sexism in the language, may not be so much to blame, but you can say that them taking part in it, using sexist language, has no effect. Think of a kid using very racist language in the US south 60 years ago. Sure, you can decide to not blame the kid, but you can't deny their language is racist and can have a quite bad effect (and is part of a larger system/general practice of racism in their culture).

 

So honestly, I would say you don't "get it" and are just making excuses for bad behavior. If you use sexist language, you are perpetuating a bad system that is oppressive. 

 

People who are not affected by sexism, or racism (and some who are affected) really want to tell themselves there is nothing wrong with their actions - that they are blameless. Most people want to hear and tell others a story that makes nothing wrong with their actions.

 

Ultimately, if you say something sexist, or racist - it is sexist or racist. Context or intent is not an excuse.

 

People call others dicks all the time, far more than the c word. So I don't really get your post. Male insults are used all the time.

 

Dickhead

knob

Dick

Knobhead

Prick

Tool

 

 

Yet these are okay? Aren't they sexist too? Aren't they used far more than the C word ie pretty much all the time by teenagers and many people?

 

I always thought people didn't like the C word as it is considered to be an extreme swear word like fuck used to be. Nothing to do with sexism in my opinion.

 

I do think though that if other members here do not want people to use that word then out of respect for them people should refrain from using it. If we can't respect each other, and sometimes consider our fellow members here, what's the point of talking on this forum? Surely we post here because we like the people?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure I care that much.

 

This community stopped being a lotro fan community many years ago. Instead it is mostly a community of people who do still or once did play Lotro and share common interests, gaming, MMOs, etc... and yes some Lotro stuff. I don't see a need to try to appeal to a wider audience and "recruit" new members. Which is the same reason I don't see the need for the recent moderation. We have always been reasonably good at self moderation and calling out when something or someone crosses some line, admittedly that line may be beyond what some more sensitive types would like but they aren't part of this community, they just sit on the outside criticising and calling us "malcontents", but really, who gives a shit?

Who said I wanted to recruit or try to appeal to a wider audience? If someone likes it here, wants to stay and is a friendly person, that's great. But when some biased person wants to categorise most of the perfectly normal and reasonable posts here as "busy shitting in your own waterhole", I'll correct that wrong assumption. If you're content to be labelled as such, that's fine. I'm not. So that's that. :)

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Who said I wanted to recruit or try to appeal to a wider audience?

I wasn't necessarily referring to you in that part. I assume that recent moderation is an attempt to try to "clean up" these forums and make them more appealing to a wider group, I find that unnecessary.

 

If someone likes it here, wants to stay and is a friendly person, that's great. But when some biased person wants to categorise most of the perfectly normal and reasonable posts here as "busy shitting in your own waterhole", I'll correct that wrong assumption. If you're content to be labelled as such, that's fine. I'm not. So that's that. :)

But why do you care? If some unknown person, who you will likely never have any interaction with, dislikes you (you as a forum community, not you personally) what does it matter?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll correct that wrong assumption. If you're content to be labelled as such, that's fine. I'm not. So that's that. :)

 

You can "correct" the balance of views offered. I believe you should do that. As for actually correcting someone's assumption and by that I mean getting them to change their view and publicly recant it, I think that's highly unlikely.

Link to post
Share on other sites

But why do you care? If some unknown person, who you will likely never have any interaction with, dislikes you (you as a forum community, not you personally) what does it matter?

 

I know there's that comic of 'someone is wrong on the internet!', but I find that when people are saying things that are untrue without being challenged, that is then read by other people who can be far too impressionable and start believing the falsehoods. Since the internet is mostly permanent (more so than general speech), it is a sort of indelible and allows lots of people to see the falsehood. It's not the person's opinion but how their opinion can affect and influence others in a wider sense. I feel that requires correction, though I can't speak for Loth on this.

Link to post
Share on other sites

People call others dicks all the time, far more than the c word. So I don't really get your post. Male insults are used all the time.

 

Dickhead

knob

Dick

Knobhead

Prick

Tool

 

 

Yet these are okay? Aren't they sexist too? Aren't they used far more than the C word ie pretty much all the time by teenagers and many people?

 

I always thought people didn't like the C word as it is considered to be an extreme swear word like fuck used to be. Nothing to do with sexism in my opinion.

 

I do think though that if other members here do not want people to use that word then out of respect for them people should refrain from using it. If we can't respect each other, and sometimes consider our fellow members here, what's the point of talking on this forum? Surely we post here because we like the people?

 

You forgot the c's;

 

cock

cockhead

cumspot

cumstain

 

I do agree. Respect and personal responsibility.

 

No to censorship.

 

CrankyCat

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not the person's opinion but how their opinion can affect and influence others in a wider sense. I feel that requires correction, though I can't speak for Loth on this.

 

This is a good point. However, how do you achieve " correction"? We live in an age where being factually correct and logical in your train of thought often counts for nothing and simply does not win wider arguments.

Link to post
Share on other sites

... that is then read by other people who can be far too impressionable and start believing the falsehoods...

I get that, but those sort of impressionable people are the ones who will make there minds up based on the opinions of someone else, rather than bothering to check it out for themselves. I don't imagine that sort of person lasting long here anyway, we see them, and they usually fail at the "Doro initiation test"!

Besides, you can't "correct" everyone on the internet, it's a losing battle.

Link to post
Share on other sites

People call others dicks all the time, far more than the c word. So I don't really get your post. There are far more male insults than female.

 

Dickhead

knob

Dick

Knobhead

Prick

 

Yet these are okay? Aren't they sexist too? Aren't they used far more than the C word ie pretty much all the time by teenagers and many people? 

 

I always thought people didn't like the C word as it is considered to be an extreme swear word like fuck used to be. Nothing to do with sexisim.

The difference being the history of violence and misogyny against women. And no, it's not just an extreme swear word like 'fuck', anymore than the 'n' word. I know that in some parts of the world it's a word thrown around without so much meaning, but usually in the US (not sure where you're from, sorry!) it's used in in a somewhat violent manner. Like a woman rebuffs a man's hitting on her, so he replies quite angrily by calling her that word. It's usually stronger, with a misogynistic tone, an intent to really hurt, with undertones of sexual violence occassionally .. one that can be a bit scary sometimes.

Anyway, that's why it personally makes me and some other women feel uncomfortable. But for all of CrankyCat's "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" talk, you'd think that some of us were demanding censorship. Not so. We've just asked.. asked acquaintances if they'd not use the word, please, out of kindness. If the word was ever used again, I'm not going to race for the report button. I'll grimmace and sigh, perhaps ask nicely again, or just move on as it's probably not worth it.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a good point. However, how do you achieve " correction"? We live in an age where being factually correct and logical in your train of thought often counts for nothing and simply does not win wider arguments.

 

Very true. But the idea is that you make as best a case as you can, with all the proper arguments and logic you can, and hope that other people accept your premise instead of the one you're countering. No point trying to change your opponents mind, but it's worth exposing their arguments to others. That is what I consider a win.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference being the history of violence and misogyny against women. And no, it's not just an extreme swear word like 'fuck', anymore than the 'n' word. I know that in some parts of the world it's a word thrown around without so much meaning, but usually in the US (not sure where you're from, sorry!) it's used in in a somewhat violent manner. Like a woman rebuffs a man's hitting on her, so he replies quite angrily by calling her that word. It's usually stronger, with a misogynistic tone, an intent to really hurt, with undertones of sexual violence occassionally .. one that can be a bit scary sometimes.

Anyway, that's why it personally makes me and some other women feel uncomfortable. But for all of CrankyCat's "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" talk, you'd think that some of us were demanding censorship. Not so. We've just asked.. asked acquaintances if they'd not use the word, please, out of kindness. If the word was ever used again, I'm not going to race for the report button. I'll grimmace and sigh, perhaps ask nicely again, or just move on as it's probably not worth it.

 

I didn't realise that.

 

I'm from the UK. The C word is considered very extreme over here, but not to my knowledge sexist. When used it is usually flung as an insult at a man. However men and women both use the phrase. Fuck used to be considered extreme in the UK, but now you hear it all the time and certain people use it every other word. The C word is rarely used even by people who swear all the time as even to them it is seen as crossing a line to use that word.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Very true. But the idea is that you make as best a case as you can, with all the proper arguments and logic you can, and hope that other people accept your premise instead of the one you're countering. No point trying to change your opponents mind, but it's worth exposing their arguments to others. That is what I consider a win.

By "proper arguments and logic" you are referring to someone's personal opinion correct?  Just because it is someone's personal opinion that they've come to doesn't mean its proper or logical to anyone else.  And why is it so important that people accept your premise instead of someone else (I'm speaking in general terms, not directly at you)?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...