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What the hell is happening to this forum with regards to moderation?


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But why do you care? If some unknown person, who you will likely never have any interaction with, dislikes you (you as a forum community, not you personally) what does it matter?

Why do you care that I care? :D

 

 

I know there's that comic of 'someone is wrong on the internet!', but I find that when people are saying things that are untrue without being challenged, that is then read by other people who can be far too impressionable and start believing the falsehoods. Since the internet is mostly permanent (more so than general speech), it is a sort of indelible and allows lots of people to see the falsehood. It's not the person's opinion but how their opinion can affect and influence others in a wider sense. I feel that requires correction, though I can't speak for Loth on this.

 

 

Very true. But the idea is that you make as best a case as you can, with all the proper arguments and logic you can, and hope that other people accept your premise instead of the one you're countering. No point trying to change your opponents mind, but it's worth exposing their arguments to others. That is what I consider a win.

I agree with Doro. :)

Mallorn - as far as that word being used as an insult against men.. I can't say I really heard it used that way in the US really (I could be wrong though!.) I definitely did in the UK. In the US it's more used against women.

By "proper arguments and logic" you are referring to someone's personal opinion correct?  Just because it is someone's personal opinion that they've come to doesn't mean its proper or logical to anyone else.  And why is it so important that people accept your premise instead of someone else (I'm speaking in general terms, not directly at you)?

Personal opinions are just that - opinions. Opinions can be VERY wrong.

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Regarding our reputation, my only real concern is that I'd prefer that we not get too nasty towards newcomers and people who still enjoy LOTRO, because we should want fresh faces and new perspectives

Ugh, this is getting stupid.   1. I think some of you are choosing to assume the worst about all of Bucko's posts because some of them come off the wrong way. I didn't see any difference in his c-wo

What I've always liked about this forum is that it has always felt natural. It was a place where conservations could take place. Conversations start on a particular subject and finish on an often comp

All I know is that I've had to put two posters on ignore just this week, something I have only done with one other poster period in the several years I have been posting here. Some people might not be concerned about how this forum looks to the casual observer, and that's their right. Personally, I'd prefer we be a bit more civil, and I intend to post accordingly to that preference in the future. If this means I simply don't post a comment at all on a particular topic, because I don't feel my comment could be civil, then so be it.

 

In the end, this forum is what it is, and it will continue to thrive or fade off into the void based upon how we respond to each other in the future. I choose to be civil, what you each choose is up to you.

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Two quotations come to mind with the exact same message.

 

"Repression may be said to produce the object that it comes to deny." - Judith Butler (Gender Trouble).   Or, to put it even simpler:

 

"By opposing something, you maintain it." - Ursula LeGuin (The Left Hand of Darkness)

 

How one reacts to something determines how it's perceived. Censorship constructs the very monsters it purports to condemn. Certain things have power to offend only because people keep giving them that power.

Here's another quotation:

 

 

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Standing by while a word is used that is known to be commonly offensive to women isn't something I'm prepared to do.  It's the only word I know of that people hold in such contempt in less proper circles.  I think most should be aware of that by now.  

 

 Where do we draw the line? Different words will offend different people. So do we start banning all potentially offensive words

 

Personally, I see no word as offensive really unless it's directed at someone as an insult. But if I did, I wouldn't expect other people to stop using a particular word for my sake.

You'll likely draw the line where you always do, Doro: wherever the hell you want.  

 

The sad thing is, you're making this about Darmokk and 'banning'.  Some ladies have said that word is objectionable to them.  That's been the case with people I know forever.  It should be as simple as you not driving 100 miles per hour down a crowded street in your car.  You don't do it because you don't want to hurt people, not because there is a 15 MPH sign up.  If you're making a sincere appeal in asking someone not to use a word, it's an appeal that others should sincerely consider.

 

Edit: And if you sincerely consider someone to be hanging out in the wrong place because they don't like hearing the word 'hell' or 'damn', then you can tell them so without being dismissive.  

I do agree. Respect and personal responsibility.

 

No to censorship.

Thank you for that.

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Very true. But the idea is that you make as best a case as you can, with all the proper arguments and logic you can, and hope that other people accept your premise instead of the one you're countering. No point trying to change your opponents mind, but it's worth exposing their arguments to others. That is what I consider a win.

 

Thank you for clarifying. I agree. State your case, present the facts and see what it can do. It may not bring people around but it can at least shows those still deciding that there are alternative perspectives that may be more accurate.

 

By "proper arguments and logic" you are referring to someone's personal opinion correct?  Just because it is someone's personal opinion that they've come to doesn't mean its proper or logical to anyone else.  And why is it so important that people accept your premise instead of someone else (I'm speaking in general terms, not directly at you)?

 

If you are arguing a point of purely personal taste then it is a fruitless endeavour, as you say.

 

I think Doro was referring to debates that hinge upon points that require factual data. (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong)

 

Politicians do this al the time and deliberately use misinformation knowing that many in the target audience will look no further. EG the NHS is unsustainable. The country is full etc.

 

This also touches upon Lothirieth's point about the perception held by some outside of these forums, that everyone here is a nasty mean troll etc.

 

All of these things can be challenged factually. It may not achieve the desired result but I guess there is satisfaction in having tried and the fact that a differing point of view has been put out there.

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You'll likely draw the line where you always do, Doro: wherever the hell you want.  

 

The sad thing is, you're making this about Darmokk and 'banning'.  Some ladies have said that word is objectionable to them.  That's been the case with people I know forever.  It should be as simple as you not driving 100 miles per hour down a crowded street in your car.  You don't do it because you don't want to hurt people, not because there is a 15 MPH sign up.  If you're making a sincere appeal in asking someone not to use a word, it's an appeal that others should sincerely consider.

 

Edit: And if you sincerely consider someone to be hanging out in the wrong place because they don't like hearing the word 'hell' or 'damn', then you can tell them so without being dismissive. 

 

Not sure what you're talking about here. I've at no point mentioned Darmokk in regards to banning words. Neither have I told anyone they're hanging out in the wrong place :/ I won't even begin to point out the flaw in comparing speeding with swearing.

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People call others dicks all the time, far more than the c word. So I don't really get your post. Male insults are used all the time.

 

Dickhead

knob

Dick

Knobhead

Prick

Tool

 

 

Yet these are okay? Aren't they sexist too? Aren't they used far more than the C word ie pretty much all the time by teenagers and many people?

 

I always thought people didn't like the C word as it is considered to be an extreme swear word like fuck used to be. Nothing to do with sexism in my opinion.

Corresponding pieces of anatomy are not corresponding in the effect the referencing words have on people.  Someone already stated above the historical background and context for one being worse than the other.

 

I see 'dick' used in PG-13 movies, regular discussions everywhere outside of very 'polite' circles. For whatever reason, it's not the same as the C-word.

 

 

I do think though that if other members here do not want people to use that word then out of respect for them people should refrain from using it. If we can't respect each other, and sometimes consider our fellow members here, what's the point of talking on this forum? Surely we post here because we like the people?

Thank you for that.

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Uhm, okay.. I decide to go offline for a weekend of airsoft and this thread poppes up and explodes. I'll need some time to work through all of this and pick out the valuable bits of info. 

 

I will say two things already:

  • I've already had a discussion with Doro and Darmokk regarding the incident leading up to the ban of the former. I consider that matter unfortunate, but closed.
  • I would appreciate it if we don't get into a discussion about which derogatory terms or references to sexual organs are considered harmful, offending or otherwise not appreciated. I'm sure everyone can use their own judgement and try not to use them.
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Not sure what you're talking about here. I've at no point mentioned Darmokk in regards to banning words. Neither have I told anyone they're hanging out in the wrong place :/ I won't even begin to point out the flaw in comparing speeding with swearing.

I sometimes wonder if I'm really explaining myself that poorly or if you're just being difficult.

 

We JUST had this whole discussion on moderation and censorship and banning.  The response to a few people asking for people to discontinue use of the C-word has seemingly been to rise up against the book-burning oppressors everywhere.  You referenced 'banning'.  This hasn't seemed like a 'banning' issue.  It's a common sense, common decency issue.  You're intelligent Doro.  You know I was not 'comparing' the relative harm that can be done between speeding and swearing.  I was comparing the situations in which one can choose to do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because some authority is telling them it is the right thing.

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I sometimes wonder if I'm really explaining myself that poorly or if you're just being difficult.

 

We JUST had this whole discussion on moderation and censorship and banning.  The response to a few people asking for people to discontinue use of the C-word has seemingly been to rise up against the book-burning oppressors everywhere.  You referenced 'banning'.  This hasn't seemed like a 'banning' issue.  It's a common sense, common decency issue.  You're intelligent Doro.  You know I was not 'comparing' the relative harm that can be done between speeding and swearing.  I was comparing the situations in which one can choose to do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because some authority is telling them it is the right thing.

 

When I said ban, I didn't mean forum ban I meant as in 'communal' ban. You know, certain words that the majority agree to no longer use and will outcast those that do. I wasn't being difficult at all, it just seemed your post in reference to me came out of no where.

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All I know is that I've had to put two posters on ignore just this week, something I have only done with one other poster period in the several years I have been posting here. Some people might not be concerned about how this forum looks to the casual observer, and that's their right. Personally, I'd prefer we be a bit more civil, and I intend to post accordingly to that preference in the future. If this means I simply don't post a comment at all on a particular topic, because I don't feel my comment could be civil, then so be it.

 

In the end, this forum is what it is, and it will continue to thrive or fade off into the void based upon how we respond to each other in the future. I choose to be civil, what you each choose is up to you.

 

This is what I think as well.... glad to know I am not alone in that sentiment because considering how long this thread has gone on, I was beginning to wonder...

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We do seem to come to an understanding of sorts, if not an agreement.

 

I was ready to respond to a post 3 pages back, but decided to wait and read the whole thread to see where things went.

 

It went to a few places I would not have predicted, but in the end my thoughts were said by others much better than I would've been able to.

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As you know, there are many lurkers here. I have spoken to quite a few and one recently told me that its actually a good thing that forums such as the LOTRO Community exists. Because while you're all "busy shitting in your own waterhole, you're not spoiling anyone else's". (This was not a reference to the official LOTRO forums). Make of that what you will.

 

But here's the difference - the OF is an artificially managed environment, that allows for a limited range of disgruntlement in talking about the game.

 

It encourages a narrow-minded view.  

 

Should we be surprised, or even concerned, that a product of that environment finds the wider range of expression here to be off-putting and "filthy"?   

 

We all make our own choices about how to communicate, and any observer who is interested in learning about the community should be able to see that we're individuals.  It takes more effort to hold your own here than it does in a place where extremes are simply not allowed to exist.  I'm glad I made the effort.  

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But here's the difference - the OF is an artificially managed environment, that allows for a limited range of disgruntlement in talking about the game.

 

It encourages a narrow-minded view.  

 

Should we be surprised, or even concerned, that a product of that environment finds the wider range of expression here to be off-putting and "filthy"?   

 

We all make our own choices about how to communicate, and any observer who is interested in learning about the community should be able to see that we're individuals.  It takes more effort to hold your own here than it does in a place where extremes are simply not allowed to exist.  I'm glad I made the effort.  

Well Said.

I know everyone has their own reasons for posting here. 

My own are simply due to the overwhelming number of posters on the Official Forums who take up their entire day responding to threads to get them closed or to disagree for the sake of disagreement in order to troll. 

 

Moderation never really bothered me on the o board.  The only time I had a post deleted was when one of Rick's pets decided to bring her agenda into multiple threads throwing them off topic and I pointed out that there were other threads for these matters.  I believe she was a poster (some well known). 

 

Up until, and including update 13 I played the game.  I know of a bunch of others that either still play or have just quit recently.  I understand M. Peril's point of view, but we still talk about the game here.  Past, present and future.  Sure there are threads which solely talk about forum moderation here and on the o board.  But judging by just the threads in Lotro general the game is still being talked about.

 

Yes most of the threads on here point out the recent poor development of the game.  That is simply because it's true.  Most players don't live in a world where everything Turbine shits is gold.  Yet on the o boards it's as if Turbine does.  I've seen more players defend the poor game development than Turbine itself.  Some find it frustrating that concerns are treated to discredit.

 

The most recent one is enough quests to reach level 100.  I know you are familiar with this Moderate Peril, as I read your blog.  So many players came out to defend the bad game design in that little gem that the issue was lost.  Who knows if Turbine will ever fix it? 

 

So we still talk about the game, just might not be the views the o board people like. 

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Should we be surprised, or even concerned, that a product of that environment finds the wider range of expression here to be off-putting and "filthy"?   

 

 

Just to clarify a point that may have been misunderstood. The lurker I was referring to did not hail specifically from the OF, nor were their comments solely about going over to the OF forums and interacting there.

 

They were making the point that from their point of view they were glad that everyone was here grumbling about multiple games, rather than being active participants elsewhere.

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