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Pillars of Eternity (Project Eternity) - Infinity Engine homage


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If you're only used to and enjoy current cinematic 3D games, this type of tactical party game definitely isn't for you (that's the reason why it had to be crowdfunded, because no publisher would take it, though they might regret that now with Steam/GOG numbers). The progression is on-par with Baldur's Gate 1, which is what the backers asked for, since this is going to have sequels. Basically only people who enjoyed the old IE games would appreciate this. :P The vast majority of negative user reviews I've seen were complaining it's too old-school.

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I have a problem with Kickstarter, it's the same issue I have with Steam early access. Once the company has your money for early access or potential development, where is the incentive to actually fin

Well, it's not that the old-schoolness is a deal-breaker for me (I played BG2, IWD, NWN, etc when they were new games), but what I understood was that the quality of the content/story was supposed to be the selling point. And on that score, they haven't done anything noteworthy as far as I can see.

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The vast majority of negative user reviews I've seen were complaining it's too old-school.

To be fair, that's a pretty valid complaint. They're charging 'new school' prices for an old school game, when people could just go out and buy Icewind Dale complete pack (on a disc, too!) for a fiver at their local game store.

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I like the look of the game. I just refuse to buy it. Companies using Kickstarter is so wrong to me, especially when they freely admit they had people coming in to the office and just sitting around before starting the Kickstarter. So money wasn't an issue. They just used it as an easy way to save their company (from their own incompetence, it seems), not to make a game. Not to mention that god-awful video they made about how sad they all were, with sad music and sad faces all talking really seriously about how they can't run a company with begging for donations.

And not only did they get damn near $4 million from Kickstarter (4 times their funded goal), they also charge an arm and a leg for different versions of the game... all of which are digital. Nope, I can't get on board with this.

 

Kickstarter allows them to move forward without shopping a game to a publisher, allowing the studio more control.  It allows them to seek out a niche market, where publishers push them towards mass appeal even when it means wholesale changing the project or approach.

 

Obsidian as a studio has, just the worst track record of development treatment by publishers.  As a small bit player, they don't get to pull a Blizzard "When it's done" development cycle - (see the ludicrous timelines they were forced to work on for KOTOR2 and Fallout: New Vegas).

 

The different "game versions" were initially backer rewards for kickstarter supporters.  It would be kind of a let down for those early backers who threw hundreds of dollars at the project to sell them at launch for an extra $5.

 

So far I have backed WL2, Torment:TON, Shadowrun Returns, Shadowrun Returns:HK and PoE.  Of the ones which have reached release, ALL have been worth the ~$20 I've chipped in.  One of them, Shadowrun Returns, has had the BEST customer experience I have ever had from a game company (Harebrained Schemes is a fantastic studio).

 

To be fair, that's a pretty valid complaint. They're charging 'new school' prices for an old school game, when people could just go out and buy Icewind Dale complete pack (on a disc, too!) for a fiver at their local game store.

 

I think the games are worth what their charging.  I would recommend POE, at retail, to anyone who enjoys RPGs.

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Well, it's not that the old-schoolness is a deal-breaker for me (I played BG2, IWD, NWN, etc when they were new games), but what I understood was that the quality of the content/story was supposed to be the selling point. And on that score, they haven't done anything noteworthy as far as I can see.

At level 3? I don't know, that's like judging an MMO in the first 10-20 levels, though I was actually happy my party was wiped by a bunch of angry pigs at level 3 on default difficulty setting on like the 3-4th overland map. I haven't even gotten to Defiance Bay yet. The dialogues are between BG2 and PST so far, but what I'm really curious about are the reputation splits instead of just "good/evil." I'll figure out where the storytelling sits once I get through Defiance Bay, at least, but BG2 level is fine with me and would be better than what DA could manage. Dragon Age was a total failure as far as I'm concerned, because Bioware tried to pitch it as a BG spiritual successor and it absolutely wasn't; by the forum chatter, it seemed most of the players interested in DA wanted dating SIMs and digital sex. Also, completely railroaded.

Anyone complaining about Pillars pricing now definitely had no idea what games cost back in the early 2000s, so the comparison to "current" IWD pricing is invalid. Seriously, that's stupid. Baldur's Gate was $49.95 in 1999. The expansion to Baldur's Gate II cost $30 retail.

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Kickstarter allows them to move forward without shopping a game to a publisher, allowing the studio more control.  It allows them to seek out a niche market, where publishers push them towards mass appeal even when it means wholesale changing the project or approach.

And they did all of that AFTER they got near $4 million for free. It wasn't till they were financially secure with the cash of other people that they made a game, which they then sold for an arm and a leg. The whole thing reeks of an incompetent company abusing the good will of services like Kickstarter (a brilliant place for new starters to build themselves a name) to keep themselves afloat. And they aren't the only company to be doing this sort of shit, either.

I think the games are worth what their charging.  I would recommend POE, at retail, to anyone who enjoys RPGs.

That's nonsense. Games are worth what people are willing to pay, not what people charge. And when it comes down to it, there are many more old school D&D style games out there at a much cheaper price than what Obsidian is charging.

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And they did all of that AFTER they got near $4 million for free. It wasn't till they were financially secure with the cash of other people that they made a game, which they then sold for an arm and a leg. The whole thing reeks of an incompetent company abusing the good will of services like Kickstarter (a brilliant place for new starters to build themselves a name) to keep themselves afloat. And they aren't the only company to be doing this sort of shit, either.

 

I find this to be a bit "backwards".  They got "near $4 million" because they wanted to make a game, and pitched the idea to the public via kickstarter.  The scope of the game increased as more funds were pledged.  You also have to allow for taxes and physical rewards to eat into this (not to mention pledges that weren't fufilled - either cancelled or not processed due to declined/insufficient funds).
 
So... having gotten funding to run their studio and create this game for the two year development cycle... you think they should just give everything away at distribution cost and lay everyone off?  I'd rather they make some profit here, keep people employed and move whatever early state proto-project they may have forward.
 

That's nonsense. Games are worth what people are willing to pay, not what people charge. And when it comes down to it, there are many more old school D&D style games out there at a much cheaper price than what Obsidian is charging.

 

 

 

You have to AT LEAST acknowledge the irony in this statement.  PEOPLE determine the worth.  And while you may individually disagree, you have to admit that quite a few people find this worth the price point: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?filter=topsellers#sort_by=_ASC&category1=998&filter=topsellers&page=1

 

That's only Steam Sales.  It's also available on GoG without DRM, and selling great over there too.

 

I'd say that Obsidian have done a good job pricing their product.  If it's more than you want to spend on the game, wait 6 months.  It will be lower.  Wait a year, it's maybe $10.  Less if it's a Steam sale.

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At level 3? I don't know, that's like judging an MMO in the first 10-20 levels, though I was actually happy my party was wiped by a bunch of angry pigs at level 3 on default difficulty setting on like the 3-4th overland map.

I was still Level 3 after about 10 hours of gameplay...when does the story start getting good?

I am pretty sure I was blown away by BG2's story and characters in less than 10 hours. Ditto for DA:O.

Comparing it to an MMO is not really sensible.

I finally hit Level 4 right before my last logout last night, 10+ hours in.

Not sure it's living up to the "micromanagement" billing either. My fighter still only has one ability. I can use it a total of twice per combat. It knocks the target down for a few seconds, when it works, which is maybe half the time. So much tension and suspense, deciding when to use my two button pushes per combat! (I also have two "you're the plot protagonist" story-related abilities, each of which can be used once per DAY...)

Dragon Age was a total failure as far as I'm concerned, because Bioware tried to pitch it as a BG spiritual successor and it absolutely wasn't;

We'll have to agree to disagree on Dragon Age; I think "spiritual successor" is not the same as "clone". The story-telling, characterization and world detail in Dragon Age are light-years beyond anything I've seen in PoE.

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I think the best comparaison is 

 

 

1- Path of Exile - Diablo 3

2- Pillars of Eternity - Dragon Age Inquisition. 

 

 

Similarities between both PoE, the graphic exuberance of D's ... 

The rest is a question of taste really. 

 

P.S. @ Bel - AFAIK Playing the warrior is just what to hit and where to stand. Group mechanics are better. World, story and lore are OK too. Later of course.

Game is linear, moral choices  ... cough.... cough... Finished PIllars, enjoyed, back to Inquisition, so much digital sex left...   :)

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The similarities between the plot hooks in PoE and DA:Inq are kind of funny.

In DA:Inq, you are an unknown who unwittingly becomes involved in some kind of mysterious extra-planar ritual that gives you a scary personal ability that may prove to be the world's only hope for survival.

In PoE, you are an unknown who unwittingly becomes involved in some kind of mysterious extra-planar ritual that gives you a scary personal ability that may prove to be the world's only hope for survival.

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The similarities between the plot hooks in PoE and DA:Inq are kind of funny.

In DA:Inq, you are an unknown who unwittingly becomes involved in some kind of mysterious extra-planar ritual that gives you a scary personal ability that may prove to be the world's only hope for survival.

In PoE, you are an unknown who unwittingly becomes involved in some kind of mysterious extra-planar ritual that gives you a scary personal ability that may prove to be the world's only hope for survival.

 

Pretty common fantasy story trope.

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I find this to be a bit "backwards".  They got "near $4 million" because they wanted to make a game, and pitched the idea to the public via kickstarter.  The scope of the game increased as more funds were pledged.  You also have to allow for taxes and physical rewards to eat into this (not to mention pledges that weren't fufilled - either cancelled or not processed due to declined/insufficient funds).

Had they wanted to make a game, they could have done so. They admitted they had people coming in to work just for the sake of it. But it wasn't until they knew they were financially secure that they decided to do anything. Had they not made anything from Kickstarter, their company would have disappeared and all because they would have sat around twiddling their thumbs until the end. So they were basically saved by hand-outs.

 

So... having gotten funding to run their studio and create this game for the two year development cycle... you think they should just give everything away at distribution cost and lay everyone off?  I'd rather they make some profit here, keep people employed and move whatever early state proto-project they may have forward.

Considering they got so much money for nothing from the start, they didn't need to charge so high later. There is no way on Earth that distribution costs them so much that they need to charge $50+ before they start making a profit. 

 

You have to AT LEAST acknowledge the irony in this statement.  PEOPLE determine the worth.  And while you may individually disagree, you have to admit that quite a few people find this worth the price point: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?filter=topsellers#sort_by=_ASC&category1=998&filter=topsellers&page=1

There's no irony in that statement at all. I said that buyers determine the worth of a product, not the company that sets it. A company that decides their game should sell for a high price won't automatically mean that's how much it's worth. And when comparing to similar games, charging near ten times as much for what is effectively the same product is just insane (on both the seller and consumer's part).

Edit: re-read your post. I thought you were saying that games are always worth what the company charges, not that you think the game is worth what the company charges.

 

That's only Steam Sales.  It's also available on GoG without DRM, and selling great over there too.

Justin Beiber has sold millions of singles. It doesn't mean his product is actually worth what he's charging... just that some people have more money than sense.

 

I'd say that Obsidian have done a good job pricing their product.  If it's more than you want to spend on the game, wait 6 months.  It will be lower.  Wait a year, it's maybe $10.  Less if it's a Steam sale.

I never pay more than £5 for a game nowadays anyway. But regardless of its price, I refuse to give Obsidian my money precisely because they made the game off the backs of other people. When Rooster Teeth started asking for Kickstarter money to make a movie, I stopped watching their videos. And I did the same when a number of YouTubers started setting up Patreon and Kickstarter projects to keep making more YouTube videos... that they already make money from. And when Peter Molyneux left Lionhead to go and make his own company and immediately started asking for crowdfunding to make games, I refused to buy his games.

And it's because they were all asking for free money to make themselves more money. I refuse to participate in such nonsense.

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And it's because they were all asking for free money to make themselves more money. I refuse to participate in such nonsense.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et-s_GnUNBw&t=0m13s

 

Ah, the fine line between opinion and economic ignorance.

 

"That Bastard wants me to give him MY food so he can stop working in the fields long enough to create this WHEEL so he can trade for EVEN MORE FOOD.  I refuse to take part in such nonsense!" ~ Some distant relative of Doro's, around 5,500 years ago in Mesopotamia 

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et-s_GnUNBw&t=0m13s

 

Ah, the fine line between opinion and economic ignorance.

 

"That Bastard wants me to give him MY food so he can stop working in the fields long enough to create this WHEEL so he can trade for EVEN MORE FOOD.  I refuse to take part in such nonsense!" ~ Some distant relative of Doro's, around 5,500 years ago in Mesopotamia

People bought the food. Obsidian got money for free. And what they offered in return doesn't help further technological advancement (ironically, it's just copying what we already have at a higher price). A complete non-comparison.

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People bought the food. Obsidian got money for free. And what they offered in return doesn't help further technological advancement (ironically, it's just copying what we already have at a higher price). A complete non-comparison.

 

People willingly exchanged value for perceived value (money pledged for proposed game + rewards).

The game was made - Obsidian provided the labor and expertise here

The game is selling VERY well and perceived as many as being of good value.

 

So the comparison holds completely.  It's how Voluntary exchanges work.

 

You obviously don't think POE has value.  That's your judgement to make... but silly of you to try to make it for other people.  Seriously, I recommend a self paced online course in economics.  It will change your life for the better.

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People willingly exchanged value for perceived value (money pledged for proposed game + rewards).

The game was made - Obsidian provided the labor and expertise here

The game is selling VERY well and perceived as many as being of good value.

 

So the comparison holds completely.  It's how Voluntary exchanges work.

Not even remotely. There is no way that Obsidian has given back anywhere near the value they took in from pledges. They relied on hand-outs to make a game that they then charged even more for, as if they put all the money in themselves.

 

You obviously don't think POE has value.

No, I think it does. Just not as much as it would have done if it weren't crowdfunded to begin with.

That's your judgement to make... but silly of you to try to make it for other people.

At no point have I done so. I've only said why I won't buy it.

Seriously, I recommend a self paced online course in economics.  It will change your life for the better.

Oh well here's my recommendation: How to go fuck yourself, for dummies. Should make it much smoother for you.

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Not even remotely. There is no way that Obsidian has given back anywhere near the value they took in from pledges. They relied on hand-outs to make a game that they then charged even more for, as if they put all the money in themselves.

 

Economically - the fact that they're able to successfully sell at near AAA pricing a game made on only around $4 million for a design budget tells me the opposite.  What they created in terms of "economic" value is competing favorably with games that have 10-20x the creation budget.  That's fucking impressive in terms of value generation.

 

But you can't get over almost 80,000 people willingly pledging to have this created... because companies profiting from their labor is bad... so whatever.

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Economically - the fact that they're able to successfully sell at near AAA pricing a game made on only around $4 million for a design budget tells me the opposite.  What they created in terms of "economic" value is competing favorably with games that have 10-20x the creation budget.  That's fucking impressive in terms of value generation.

And none of that even remotely matters to me if they made their initial investment through hand-outs.

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Your loss.

 

45 hours played and counting.  You call it a handout, but I call it money well spent.

Meh, I just reinstalled Icewind Dale 1 & 2 with expansions. £5 better spent.

Also, it came out what 2 weeks ago? 45 hours already? Calm your tits.

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Also, it came out what 2 weeks ago? 45 hours already? Calm your tits.

 

 

Some prefer to smell the roses, some like it quick, some like and can play 3+  hours a day. Hardly interesting amount. 

Worry about your manboobs. I've finished the game, had fun. Didn't bother to count the hours. 

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I have a problem with Kickstarter, it's the same issue I have with Steam early access. Once the company has your money for early access or potential development, where is the incentive to actually finish the game to a high quality? I mean they have your money already, doesn't really matter to them anymore how good the game is.

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I have a problem with Kickstarter, it's the same issue I have with Steam early access. Once the company has your money for early access or potential development, where is the incentive to actually finish the game to a high quality? I mean they have your money already, doesn't really matter to them anymore how good the game is.

 

It's not without risk.  Getting a good idea of the people/team involved is important. 

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Some prefer to smell the roses, some like it quick, some like and can play 3+  hours a day. Hardly interesting amount. 

Worry about your manboobs. I've finished the game, had fun. Didn't bother to count the hours.

Yeah but you aren't here getting all defensive because someone criticised the company that made the game.

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