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More layoffs at Turbine? (Massively article)


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WOW!! how much are they paying you?

What's rather sad is how this forum reacts to people who continue to play lotro. I certainly don't have to justify to any of you my reasons for doing so. Not surprising that people such as Brokk left

I have no intention of trying to document that a stalker who had been bothering me for a long time went to obsessive lengths to trace my posts on the OF to my posts here to 'prove' that I was somehow

Or possibly one could think, from his post, that he likes the world and the fact that he can go to iconic locations. He doesn't mention mechanics or traditional end-game, maybe those things don't matter to him. 

 

Of course he might be a trollin' shill too :)


Seriously, are we back to this fucking bollocks again?

Is the guy not entitled to an opinion without being accused of being a shill?

 

beat me to it.

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Latest is the "tourist" player, not interested in MMORPG play per se: Nothing wrong with that, and he's getting his money's worth, but it's clearly not enough for actual gamers---essentially everyone else who abandoned ship in the last major failure (Helm's Deep). Can LotRO survive on only tourists? Maybe, who knows.

The true shame is that LotRO used to have many things that appealed to both ends of the spectrum, both Tolkien casual tourists and the gamers. There really was a golden age.

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I feel bad for the peoples.  

 

But even if you work for a big corporation and you treat your customers like crap and deliver shorty work for too long it is going to catch up with you.  

 

It caught up.

 

A lot more people in the industry are going to get fired because the industry is pushing politically and socially motivated junk that is anti game, anti competition and anti human nature.  

 

what ever happened to pushing for excellence and rewarding it?  Your work force ideology is like your game design ideology and it is crap and it will kill your industry.  Go back to school and take up nursing or social work  and get out of the game industry.

 

And please for the love of god stay out of education.  There is enough of your overpaid, under skilled, unionized militia, killing the minds of our youth and robbing the tax payers.

 

This society needs leaders and innovators that's what made the USA great.  Kids today are taught to be overly passive at all cost not to "upset the apple cart" go along with authority at all cost and never question it.   

 

This is 1 of the 3 things at the heart of our piss poor economy and the state of the nation.

 

 

 

 

The moral to this rant is:

 

If your boss or co workers acts like  idiots and you don't say anything or try and do anything and you get fired because the product is crap, it is your fault.  If you say something and get fired, it is also your fault, but at least you did the right thing. Now you can share that experience on your next interview and maybe just maybe you will find the culture and company you deserve and you can go on to create excellence instead of garbage.

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Latest is the "tourist" player, not interested in MMORPG play per se: Nothing wrong with that, and he's getting his money's worth, but it's clearly not enough for actual gamers---essentially everyone else who abandoned ship in the last major failure (Helm's Deep). Can LotRO survive on only tourists? Maybe, who knows.

The true shame is that LotRO used to have many things that appealed to both ends of the spectrum, both Tolkien casual tourists and the gamers. There really was a golden age.

 

You're pretty much describing those filthy "casul" players who need to "git gud"..............Ahem, sorry ;)

 

But in all seriousness, those types of players are a growing market and video game companies are doing their best to cater to them. So expect more "tourist" intergration in the future. There's always talk of making games easier and more accesible to a wider audience.

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You're pretty much describing those filthy "casul" players who need to "git gud"..............Ahem, sorry ;)

 

But in all seriousness, those types of players are a growing market and video game companies are doing their best to cater to them. So expect more "tourist" intergration in the future. There's always talk of making games easier and more accesible to a wider audience.

No, I totally get it (especially with the entire blooming of mobile app games, no one saw that coming). But it's one thing to design an MMORPG to be casual from the outset and another to see a traditional MMORPG with nearly all common elements lose so much over the years. Developers can totally continue to design casual content for tourist players (festivals, housing, etc. like in Rift) while still developing actual gamer entertainment too like new raids with tiered difficulty. I think that's the best way to competitively survive in an already shrinking game genre---capturing both ends---rather than whittling down and "specializing" at a great loss. That's just how I see it, though.

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No, I totally get it (especially with the entire blooming of mobile app games, no one saw that coming). But it's one thing to design an MMORPG to be casual from the outset and another to see a traditional MMORPG with nearly all common elements lose so much over the years. Developers can totally continue to design casual content for tourist players (festivals, housing, etc. like in Rift) while still developing actual gamer entertainment too like new raids with tiered difficulty. I think that's the best way to competitively survive in an already shrinking game genre---capturing both ends---rather than whittling down and "specializing" at a great loss. That's just how I see it, though.

 

Oh, I agree. As far as I'm concerned you're preaching to the choir here.

 

Case in point: one of my favorite game franchise is the Demons/ Dark Souls series of games. It was a brutally difficult action/rpg that made you pay for your mistakes. It was a homage to old-school style Nintendo-era difficulty. And I loved it.

 

Now they want to cater to a wider audience and ,without going into an off-topic tangent, made the most recent edition easier for newbies. I hate to sound like a snob, but if the original game was too hard for you the first time, go play something else or "git gud". Don't punish other players for your lack of skill.

 

Its this "dumbing down" and oversimplifying of established gaming mechanics that irks me. And it looks like this will continue to spread.

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Seriously, are we back to this fucking bollocks again?

Is the guy not entitled to an opinion without being accused of being a shill?

 

Look at all 3 of his posts. Pretty hard not to accuse him of shilling when he's shilling so hard :P

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Look at all 3 of his posts. Pretty hard not to accuse him of shilling when he's shilling so hard :P

 

paid shills are paid to sway opinions.  i think this fella is just stating his own.

 

if he was being paid to sway opinions, the company he is working for is rather inexperienced.

 

he is being far to confrontational, which always has the risk of entrenching the very side you are attempting to sway.

 

unless he is just being paid to sow dissent?  ;)

 

regardless, a marketing hire with only 337 twitter followers, doesn't really have the numbers that would sway a significant influence.

 

i'm thinking no, to the hired theory.

 

just someone who holds a different view.

 

and one that i currently have no investment in countering.

 

no need to get hostile, the moment someone comes along with a counter position.

 

let him have the stage & mic & see where he goes with it.

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paid shills are paid to sway opinions.  i think this fella is just stating his own.

 

if he was being paid to sway opinions, the company he is working for is rather inexperienced.

 

he is being far to confrontational, which always has the risk of entrenching the very side you are attempting to sway.

 

unless he is just being paid to sow dissent?  ;)

 

regardless, a marketing hire with only 337 twitter followers, doesn't really have the numbers that would sway a significant influence.

 

i'm thinking no, to the hired theory.

 

just someone who holds a different view.

 

and one that i currently have no investment in countering.

 

no need to get hostile, the moment someone comes along with a counter position.

 

let him have the stage & mic & see where he goes with it.

 

Who says (s)he's paid? Perhaps (s)he has a romantic relationship with a Turbine employee #Gamergate2.0 #MuchSerious

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This thread has been off topic for a while.  I apologize for my own part in that.

 

A few things I'd like to address that will continue that off topic discussion.

 

Oh, I agree. As far as I'm concerned you're preaching to the choir here.

 

Case in point: one of my favorite game franchise is the Demons/ Dark Souls series of games. It was a brutally difficult action/rpg that made you pay for your mistakes. It was a homage to old-school style Nintendo-era difficulty. And I loved it.

 

Now they want to cater to a wider audience and ,without going into an off-topic tangent, made the most recent edition easier for newbies. I hate to sound like a snob, but if the original game was too hard for you the first time, go play something else or "git gud". Don't punish other players for your lack of skill.

 

Its this "dumbing down" and oversimplifying of established gaming mechanics that irks me. And it looks like this will continue to spread.

The Tourist player.  If the tourist player is the target audience and it is much larger than the traditional MMORPG players then shouldn't (in theory) Lotro's population be even bigger than it was when we had those traditional MMO features included in the game as a standard?   If this theory holds any water (concerning Lotro) shouldn't the lotro servers be teaming with players?  

 

 

Don't agree with anything you wrote. All speculation designed to prove your own hypothesis with no real empirical evidence what so ever.

 

I find it sad that you feel you've had money "snared" out of you for a game that you, perhaps at one stage, obviously like. I pay $15 a month and would gladly pay more. You get what you pay for in the world, I believe, and if you want a free game, you get a free game. ALso, if you pay peanuts (which $15 is, let's be honest), then you get monkeys.

 

Central Gondor looks great, Beorning class looks interesting and I know many people will be rolling one. Soon we'll be at Minis Tirith and then onto Mordor. If that isn't enough for you then that's a shame.

As always I have no problem with players that still enjoy the game.  I'm glad the nearly 1000$ I dumped into the game over a 4 year period is providing someone some enjoyment.  Some may be surprised at my next statements.  

 

Not sure where the 15$ statement comes from because since Moria I had paid on a 3 month cycle and the price was 9.99.  There are still portions of the game that I believe are worth 9.99$ a month.  If you are an altaholic paying 9.99$ per month is going to get you access to some of the best content Lotro has ever offered (levels 1-50) and a much larger portion (quantity-wise) than level 85 through 100 have to offer.  After that you are forced to buy expansions to experience the "complete picture".  

 

I don't believe anyone asked Turbine for a completely free game.  What we asked (some/most of us) is that the money we poured into the game be used to develop it in such a way that was consistent with previous experiences.  And players once gave generously to make this happen.  When I began playing I was under a spell.  The world Turbine provided was rich and vast.  Lots of options for the PVE player.  That spell was broken after seeing what was going on during ROI development onward.  It was then when I realized that the money I put into the game was not being properly used.

 

And really when reflecting on that red statement above, I feel that lots of other players left for those same reasons.  It doesn't matter if you were the everyday PVPer, the hardcore raider, the casual raider, the solo player, the RPer, the tourist, the alt-aholic or any other pigeonhole group name you want to use to define yourself, the game was not delivering on all levels.  The biggest number of players (I believe) is the group that uses multiple features in the game.

 

To get back on point.  When this poster spends his 15$ a month on Lotro he feels he is getting his money's worth.   There are others  who think that statement is misleading.  But I think both opinions are correct.  Because they are simply opinions.  The only way to prove Lotro is worth the money is to use a similar genre game, with similar costs and compare them side by side.  

 

This can't even be done with former iterations of the game.

 

 

Seriously, are we back to this fucking bollocks again?

Is the guy not entitled to an opinion without being accused of being a shill?

Yup.   He is.   But people are also entitled to disagree without being called lying assholes who have no clue what they are talking about.   That every poster here is hell bent on making those who still play justify why they do so.  And that's what happened earlier in the thread.  

And really none of that is true.  It's a chosen few who decide to do so.   You can choose to ignore the few posts like that or acknowledge them.  This time they were not ignored and then in turn presented as the norm.  This not only fuels the original argument but also portrays individuals as groups.  Stereotyping.  

 

What's rather sad is how this forum reacts to people who continue to play lotro. I certainly don't have to justify to any of you my reasons for doing so. Not surprising that people such as Brokk left because of the anger and vitriol that they had thrown at them.

This was the result of stereotyping on both ends.  First off the forum didn't react, but individual posters.   Second, no one asked him to justify his reasons for still playing.    The fact that he felt the need to even bring up that he might have to justify his reasons for playing the game says more about the state of the game than anyone trashing it.  And that stuff about Brrokk remains total BS.  While this stupid argument began weeks ago it is only 4 to 5 posters that allowed it to fuel on both sides.

 

I'll take some guilt in that.   My part was only to prove really that we have some folks here now that were more interested in forum PVP than talking about the game.  I pointed this out in another thread and I stand by those comments. 

I warned posters that a chosen few would take aim at their posts.   I advised them not to engage them but sadly the butthurt was too intense, apparently.

 

But I guess I'm just delusional?  

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The Tourist player.  If the tourist player is the target audience and it is much larger than the traditional MMORPG players then shouldn't (in theory) Lotro's population be even bigger than it was when we had those traditional MMO features included in the game as a standard?   If this theory holds any water (concerning Lotro) shouldn't the lotro servers be teaming with players?

No, because the slice of Tolkien enthusiasts who are interested in computer games even in a tourist manner is already very small, particularly an MMORPG as opposed to an SP or app game with extremely low entry investment. My argument is, rather, that LotRO can't survive in a healthy manner without catering to both the limited number of Tolkien-computer-game-players and MMORPG players who like gaming and appreciate the lore, though are not necessarily fully invested in it.

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No, because the slice of Tolkien enthusiasts who are interested in computer games even in a tourist manner is already very small, particularly an MMORPG as opposed to an SP or app game with extremely low entry investment. My argument is, rather, that LotRO can't survive in a healthy manner without catering to both the limited number of Tolkien-computer-game-players and MMORPG players who like gaming and appreciate the lore, though are not necessarily fully invested in it.

 

I agree and thought your earlier comments with regards to how Rift tries and has so far successfully catered to different types of gamers was spot on. There is no reason why LOTRO could not have done the same. In my opinion they didn't because the people at the top were only interested in making a quick buck and over estimated the amount of non-traditional gamers that played LOTRO who they decided to cater the game for. But what do you expect from an ex Zinga employee?  Gamers are not all the same and are now very diverse compared to how they were years ago. Facebook gamers and mmo gamers are two completely different breeds.

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No, because the slice of Tolkien enthusiasts who are interested in computer games even in a tourist manner is already very small, particularly an MMORPG as opposed to an SP or app game with extremely low entry investment. My argument is, rather, that LotRO can't survive in a healthy manner without catering to both the limited number of Tolkien-computer-game-players and MMORPG players who like gaming and appreciate the lore, though are not necessarily fully invested in it.

Agreed which is why the game from the start has been an MMORPG.   Surely Turbine doesn't think stripping out the MMORPG features is a smart way to develop the game.   While the last leadership was terrible current one is ok.   The saddest part in my opinion is that the change came far too late.   Now that you have leaders listening to the players, it is too late, the damage has been done.  The budget is much smaller and any hopes of returning this game to something resembling it's former self is gone. 

 

I think Aaron Campbell has done an excellent job based on what he has been given, which is a game in turmoil that's losing lots of players over the last couple years and it's identity .   But in the same token would Lotro even have these budget problems if the game was closer to it's original gameplay, If the game was designed to target all groups of players?   I guess we will never know.

I agree and thought your earlier comments with regards to how Rift tries and has so far successfully catered to different types of gamers was spot on. There is no reason why LOTRO could not have done the same. In my opinion they didn't because the people at the top were only interested in making a quick buck and over estimated the amount of non-traditional gamers that played LOTRO. But that do you expect from an ex Zinga employee?  Gamers are not all the same and are now very diverse compared to how they were years ago. Facebook gamers and mmo gamers are two completely different breeds.

This pretty much. 

"But that do you expect from an ex Zinga employee?"

They hired at least one back 2 years ago.  And a guy from Skyrim at the same time. 

Which explains some of the directions the game has taken.  Really it's been about surviving rather than thriving.

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...

 

To get back on point.  When this poster spends his 15$ a month on Lotro he feels he is getting his money's worth.   There are others  who think that statement is misleading.  But I think both opinions are correct.  Because they are simply opinions.  The only way to prove Lotro is worth the money is to use a similar genre game, with similar costs and compare them side by side.  

 

This can't even be done with former iterations of the game.

 

...

 

I like and agree with the majority of the post Quinn.

 

If someone thinks another persons statement of opinion is misleading, isn't that just a round about way of saying they're lying? More of a semantics question than anything :)

 

Not sure I agree about the only way to tell if LotRO is worth the money, is to test it against other games. The experience a person has with other games would surely factor in, as well as any history with the game itself. It's clear that what we once got for a sub does not equate with what we now get for a sub. But in the end, especially for "casual" gamers, the value is not as much a factor against other games as it is against other discretionary entertainment. A person on a tight budget might very well find that the $10 or $15 a month is a much better value than going to the movies or a sports event or whatever.

 

You can play through LotRO from 1-100 and encounter a relativity minor amount of bugs or game breaking issues, depending on how you play, this is especially true if you're a bit behind current content. Unless someone wa to say something along the lines of "It's obvious LotRO is worth the money for anyone" or some other ridiculous statement, it would seem clear that "it's worth the money" is an individual opinion and not some broad grandiose declaration that needs to be rebutted. 

....  Really it's been about surviving rather than thriving.

 

New Turbine Motto?

 

Turbine: Surviving, forget Thriving!

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Exactly Spite

Generalizations on both sides.  Each side feels it's in the right.  What are the current updates going for now a days pricewise?  The last time I checked it was around 795TP.  It isn't alot of real world money.  In terms of other games on the market it is peanuts.  I've also found other games that I have spent far less on and gotten 3 or 4 times the enjoyment.  I've also spent far more on other games and been disappointed.  Perspective is everything. 

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To be honest, what was said earlier about it's well worth the price of a sub for altaholics that like levelling, because of the 1-50 content, I would include Moria/Lorien in that. Mirkwood is ok, imho. Dunland/Enedwaith(which they somehow managed to name completely backwards, since Dunland borders Eregion, and Enedwaith is the larger area and to the south of Dunland, and borders the Gap of Rohan)were below par when compared to preceeding stuff.

Great River/East&West Rohan are all better than Enedwaith/Dunland/Rivendell. Gondor is an improvement on Rohan(in my opinion, which seems to be a requirement to put on here these days).

 

So, 1-65ish content makes it worth the sub fee(where I to sub)

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I like to think I got my money's worth. At this time, I've only payed about $50 US dollars in Lotro. Pretty much the same amount I'll pay for a brand new game on a console. Thats got me enough content to reach lvl 50 (missing TS, Eregion, and MM) and the expansions up to RoI. I have both RK and Warden, no money cap, shared storage, and whatever its called where I get a free riding skill on all new characters. And a growing stash of TP.

 

I have no compulsions to buy HD, plus pvmp doesn't interest me, so I think I have done enough to make an enjoyable play experience for me.

 

So I may not have the fancy perks a VIP has, but I get by.

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On a side note:

 

They greatly increased the 'communication' events at the time of the hobbit runs to Isengard and later through Moria, as well as the additional live streams with Sapience first and now Frelorn. Months ago they said they want to do this and they did it. Which is great.

The problem is, the informational value of these is close to zero. Taking a look at that:

 

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?554350-Frelorn-Q-amp-A-from-Livestreams&p=7247382#post7247382

 

Almost all questions have an answer along the lines of "I don't know but I'll ask around." Luckily, he could answer whether he's doing live streams and which games he plays...

 

So, many words are spoken these days but there is no net effect. In practice there is no communication, there is noise.

 

I don't understand if it's because the CM of LOTRO is constantly kept in the dark or because there's nothing to say (or both). The first 'hobbit runs' were much richer in information but I guess all was asked back then and - with nothing substantial in the pipeline - perhaps there is nothing to say. You are left with the feeling there is very little development going on and at a slow speed at that, which I guess is inevitable when there are 'single digits' developers working on the game. Previously (with more people on the conveyer belt), content was rushed unpolished and was polished (at least partially) afterwards. Now there is neither the capacity to release these content amounts, nor to even polish the crappy things from the last round(s). Even nonsensual fluff like new tablecloth mounts now becomes a burden.

 

I'm occasionally checking those 'official words' because of the tiny hope I'll read something that will spark a glimpse of a notion of a hope that some day I might shortly try playing again. Not only I generally dislike almost everything introduced in the game during the last ~1.5 years (and how it was introduced) but now it seems that this was replaced by pure vacuum.

 

I hope those still playing the game will be able to see Mordor, even if it's one empty land mass with absolutely no play content in and around there. Just to see it. And experience the session play with Frodo destroying the Ring, followed by the collapse of the Tower (a.k.a. fading to black screen accompanied by the sound of cutlery from the Turbine cafeteria dropped on the ground, carefully captured with the Sap's twitch mic).

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On a side note:

 

They greatly increased the 'communication' events at the time of the hobbit runs to Isengard and later through Moria, as well as the additional live streams with Sapience first and now Frelorn. Months ago they said they want to do this and they did it. Which is great.

The problem is, the informational value of these is close to zero. Taking a look at that:

 

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?554350-Frelorn-Q-amp-A-from-Livestreams&p=7247382#post7247382

 

Almost all questions have an answer along the lines of "I don't know but I'll ask around." Luckily, he could answer whether he's doing live streams and which games he plays...

 

So, many words are spoken these days but there is no net effect. In practice there is no communication, there is noise.

 

I don't understand if it's because the CM of LOTRO is constantly kept in the dark or because there's nothing to say (or both). The first 'hobbit runs' were much richer in information but I guess all was asked back then and - with nothing substantial in the pipeline - perhaps there is nothing to say. You are left with the feeling there is very little development going on and at a slow speed at that, which I guess is inevitable when there are 'single digits' developers working on the game. Previously (with more people on the conveyer belt), content was rushed unpolished and was polished (at least partially) afterwards. Now there is neither the capacity to release these content amounts, nor to even polish the crappy things from the last round(s). Even nonsensual fluff like new tablecloth mounts now becomes a burden.

 

I'm occasionally checking those 'official words' because of the tiny hope I'll read something that will spark a glimpse of a notion of a hope that some day I might shortly try playing again. Not only I generally dislike almost everything introduced in the game during the last ~1.5 years (and how it was introduced) but now it seems that this was replaced by pure vacuum.

 

I hope those still playing the game will be able to see Mordor, even if it's one empty land mass with absolutely no play content in and around there. Just to see it. And experience the session play with Frodo destroying the Ring, followed by the collapse of the Tower (a.k.a. fading to black screen accompanied by the sound of cutlery from the Turbine cafeteria dropped on the ground, carefully captured with the Sap's twitch mic).

 

you are a terrorist troll.  

 

why cant you people let turbine be.  you are all bullies and hate mongers and further more you are misogynistic woman haters who live in your moms basement.

 

you do not deserve people like sapience....

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