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Player Council Visit to Turbine - what happened?


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Btw. that is Karakedi. She's 70, I think, and an actual kinnie(she was a member of the Elves of Imladris High Council).

She has a vast store of knowledge regarding the Lore of the IP.

Then I pity her given the tremendous fall in quality over the years and that they fired the lore dude, and there aren't any quality LotR games out there anymore. Hope she enjoyed her free vacation visiting the offices responsible for stripping the game, and I'm sure none of their input will matter in the least. (Or I hope none of their input will matter in the least, given what Chromite and others said many of the pre-HD PC did to make the mechanics changes actually worse.)

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The mere fact that Turbine even considered spending money on an empty political visit despite layoffs and shitty U15 makes me livid.

Maybe they didn't need to mention it because all four people who still care about LotRO were there anyway.

I think LOTRO should try adding a store. Maybe sell some pay-to-win items.   According to Fernado the players will complain but they won't leave the game.   Give it a shot, what could go wrong?

(Or I hope none of their input will matter in the least, given what Chromite and others said many of the pre-HD PC did to make the mechanics changes actually worse.)

 

Oh? You have a source for this? What changes were made worse?

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Oh? You have a source for this? What changes were made worse?

LOL

The fact that there was a PC to begin with.  Not saying anything the PC did made the game worse but was this entity really needed to improve the game? 

 

It's my opinion that livestreams, player polls and player/developer events may have been a better way to handle obtaining feedback, rather than taking a small cross section of the population to use as a focus group.  The larger the group the more diverse the ideas get.  And that's not to say that even that would have improved the game at all.  

 

The cloak and dagger way the PC was handled was also off putting to players, at least the ones I know.  My kin had a standing joke that the PC was basically fight club.  I understand the need to protect the players involved, but really we learned nothing about what goes on inside the "fightclub" until a year later when the NDA was lifted.   And even then I still don't see a use to this entity.  I don't think a majority of players blame what lotro is today on the PC.   If they had not announced the names publicly, then they could have talked about a lot of what happened inside, behind the scenes without individuals being attacked.  If they wanted to keep this a secret they should have done just that.   Judging by the first PC thread on the O forums no one's name should have been released to the public, as players gear was linked and their motives for the game questioned. 

 

The other problem it creates is the inflation of some egos.  This goes back to 3rd grade gym class when people were picked to be on teams and certain players were picked last or left out.   If I remember correctly there were a bunch of players that advertised they were in the PC in their forum signature.  If the entity is simply a focus group that is not meant to be a player representative why exactly would they do that?   I also think it turns players off to the idea of a PC when they see  Jobear level 45 hunter 2013 PC in someones signature and then reads their forum posts and sees a player that wants exactly the opposite for the game.  The whole thing turned out to be more harmful than good.

 

Then Sapience took the opportunity to allow some of the biggest cancers in the community to join in the secret organization.  Which players took as a slight.

 

I don't blame the player who were in the PC or the ones who were not for any of this.  Much like in game mechanics good idea poorly implemented.

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Oh? You have a source for this? What changes were made worse?

I take sources like at face value, from people who were in the trenches. But that subforum is closed and scrubbed now, isn't it? So we can't really go back and trawl for all the good bits. I'd gather some things were prevented from getting worse, and others got worse. I honestly don't know if anything actually got better by the influence of the PC, because HD just changed so much. No, store item costs don't count. ;)

Edit side note: Wonder what happened to Crell?

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I take sources like at face value, from people who were in the trenches. But that subforum is closed and scrubbed now, isn't it? So we can't really go back and trawl for all the good bits. I'd gather some things were prevented from getting worse, and others got worse. I honestly don't know if anything actually got better by the influence of the PC, because HD just changed so much. No, store item costs don't count. ;)

Edit side note: Wonder what happened to Crell?

Check what TSK said in that thread (post 70) about some on the PC and what changes were made as a result of PC feedback for HD. (Hint - very little to none.) My biggest disappointment with the PC last year was that they did not use us enough for feedback on the class changes. We got a brief overview in June of the basic direction they were headed and then a Beta 0 look for 1 week before Beta 1 came out. Yes, there were a couple asshats and some that were the opposite regarding the changes but that hardly qualifies that the PC made the class change mechanics worse.

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I take sources like at face value, from people who were in the trenches. But that subforum is closed and scrubbed now, isn't it? So we can't really go back and trawl for all the good bits. I'd gather some things were prevented from getting worse, and others got worse. I honestly don't know if anything actually got better by the influence of the PC, because HD just changed so much. No, store item costs don't count. ;)

Edit side note: Wonder what happened to Crell?

I think I know the poster Chromite was referring to. 

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?531892-Captain-lost-its-uniqueness&p=7014546#post7014546

I can't find his posts relevant to his brow beating those who had concerns about the new class traits/tree system, mainly because most of those were on the general discussion tab which now only archives 13 pages.

 

I don't even play a captain  but judging by the chatter about this guy on our kin website, by other cappies they weren't too happy with his assessment of the pre-change cappy or post-change cappy.

 

The only thing I remember hearing him say a lot was skill bloat.  He used those words so much that I used to nickname him the skill bloat cappy when reading his posts!

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LOL

The fact that there was a PC to begin with.  Not saying anything the PC did made the game worse but was this entity really needed to improve the game? 

 

It's my opinion that livestreams, player polls and player/developer events may have been a better way to handle obtaining feedback, rather than taking a small cross section of the population to use as a focus group.  The larger the group the more diverse the ideas get.  And that's not to say that even that would have improved the game at all.  

 

The cloak and dagger way the PC was handled was also off putting to players, at least the ones I know.  My kin had a standing joke that the PC was basically fight club.  I understand the need to protect the players involved, but really we learned nothing about what goes on inside the "fightclub" until a year later when the NDA was lifted.   And even then I still don't see a use to this entity.  I don't think a majority of players blame what lotro is today on the PC.   If they had not announced the names publicly, then they could have talked about a lot of what happened inside, behind the scenes without individuals being attacked.  If they wanted to keep this a secret they should have done just that.   Judging by the first PC thread on the O forums no one's name should have been released to the public, as players gear was linked and their motives for the game questioned. 

 

The other problem it creates is the inflation of some egos.  This goes back to 3rd grade gym class when people were picked to be on teams and certain players were picked last or left out.   If I remember correctly there were a bunch of players that advertised they were in the PC in their forum signature.  If the entity is simply a focus group that is not meant to be a player representative why exactly would they do that?   I also think it turns players off to the idea of a PC when they see  Jobear level 45 hunter 2013 PC in someones signature and then reads their forum posts and sees a player that wants exactly the opposite for the game.  The whole thing turned out to be more harmful than good.

 

Then Sapience took the opportunity to allow some of the biggest cancers in the community to join in the secret organization.  Which players took as a slight.

 

I don't blame the player who were in the PC or the ones who were not for any of this.  Much like in game mechanics good idea poorly implemented.

Um. Okay. Still not sure how the PC made any mechanics worse. At the time it was formed as an idea in late 2012 and early 2013 there were no livestreams and other things going on all that much. If they had started them earlier there might not have been as much a need or desire for a PC. But it is what it is. Using the PC as a early idea focus group as well as doing other forms of getting feedback is not a bad thing, imo. YMMV

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Check what TSK said in that thread (post 70) about some on the PC and what changes were made as a result of PC feedback for HD. (Hint - very little to none.) My biggest disappointment with the PC last year was that they did not use us enough for feedback on the class changes. We got a brief overview in June of the basic direction they were headed and then a Beta 0 look for 1 week before Beta 1 came out. Yes, there were a couple asshats and some that were the opposite regarding the changes but that hardly qualifies that the PC made the class change mechanics worse.

I think you will find most of us don't blame PC members, even the ones we totally disagree on. 

Thanks for confirming something I suspected all along that the most important change in the game was consulted with no one outside of turbine employees.  And I never said the PC was bad, just poorly implemented.

 

The reason why people blame the CIA/NSA for so many conspiracies is because they are secret organizations with no transparency.   But we still know the organizations exist.  I still assert the only mistake turbine made with this was releasing PC names and acknowledging it's existence to an entire player base. 

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I think I know the poster Chromite was referring to. 

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?531892-Captain-lost-its-uniqueness&p=7014546#post7014546

I can't find his posts relevant to his brow beating those who had concerns about the new class traits/tree system, mainly because most of those were on the general discussion tab which now only archives 13 pages.

 

I don't even play a captain  but judging by the chatter about this guy on our kin website, by other cappies they weren't too happy with his assessment of the pre-change cappy or post-change cappy.

 

The only thing I remember hearing him say a lot was skill bloat.  He used those words so much that I used to nickname him the skill bloat cappy when reading his posts!

Hey, I liked the "skill bloat" on my captain!

What I really got from Chromite's quote and other posts that echo his assessment of the HD beta forums is that certain PC members actively became obstacles against feedback that might have improved various HD implementations, from a gamer's point of view (people who wanted challenge and to retain the original classes, at least the "feel"). That may not be overtly making Turbine choose worse positions for some things, but it definitely couldn't have helped either. So in that sense, made some things worse than they could have been---at minimum from a community standpoint.

There hasn't been anything as divisive as Helm's Deep...

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I think you will find most of us don't blame PC members, even the ones we totally disagree on. 

Thanks for confirming something I suspected all along that the most important change in the game was consulted with no one outside of turbine employees.  And I never said the PC was bad, just poorly implemented.

 

The reason why people blame the CIA/NSA for so many conspiracies is because they are secret organizations with no transparency.   But we still know the organizations exist.  I still assert the only mistake turbine made with this was releasing PC names and acknowledging it's existence to an entire player base. 

The PC members said as much regarding the HD class changes in this thread from April. 

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Ugh you're bringing up bad memories again.

 

I remember a few of the names that really ran a blocking front for Turbine:  bohbashum, furtim, Belnavar...  there were more.

 

And as for Crell, I think he may have some personal issues he's having to deal with.  He's been off Twitter for a long time too.  I think he ended up having to move and stuff but I am not certain.

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Ugh you're bringing up bad memories again.

 

I remember a few of the names that really ran a blocking front for Turbine:  bohbashum, furtim, Belnavar...  there were more.

 

And as for Crell, I think he may have some personal issues he's having to deal with.  He's been off Twitter for a long time too.  I think he ended up having to move and stuff but I am not certain.

Sorry! But yeah, back to the OP... Regardless, a useless PC trip to Turbine is wasteful and idiotic. If this was Eve's player council we were talking about, that'd be something different, I suppose.

Hope Crell is okay.

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Sorry! But yeah, back to the OP... Regardless, a useless PC trip to Turbine is wasteful and idiotic. If this was Eve's player council we were talking about, that'd be something different, I suppose.

The implementation of the PC is, unfortunately, consistent with a lot of things implemented by Turbine.  If all they wanted was feedback?  Yep, keep the list quiet.  If they wanted PR...yikes... If you're going to spend money on bringing them in to town, get some bang for your buck because a video conference would be a hell of a lot easier and cheaper to set up for feedback.

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The implementation of the PC is, unfortunately, consistent with a lot of things implemented by Turbine.  If all they wanted was feedback?  Yep, keep the list quiet.  If they wanted PR...yikes... If you're going to spend money on bringing them in to town, get some bang for your buck because a video conference would be a hell of a lot easier and cheaper to set up for feedback.

"Feedback" is not a legitimate reason for the LotRO PC to exist. The forums exist for that reason. Want more specifics? Then Turbine can create polls and surveys with specific answer options; lots of companies use 3rd party services for such things. Now, if the council was voted in as a semi-democratic representation in order to condense perspectives, that's another story.

But yeah, Skype or something. Companies use it for interviews and other legitimate things, so a web video conference would have made the most sense. What happened at this year's visit? Absolutely nothing of any import. :) Because nothing can come of it with resources greatly cut and content neutered. Whatever possible Beorning uptick will not last. As a PR stunt, IMO a vacation trip in 2014 of this nature paints Turbine in a much worse light than even before.

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There's no way of knowing what will come of it until Turbine states definitely what came of it and what discussions, if any, was held.

I'd welcome them letting people know, of course.

 

Indeed. Speculation can become an ugly beast if not tamed by transparency. 

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We know nothing good came from the first visit. Unless you are going to argue terrible development on Turbine's part would have been worse. How did all those discussions on PvMP at the last visit help Lotro?

 

Bottom line: no money for Lotro.
The game's population is dying and Turbine will spend as little as possible on this game.

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"Feedback" is not a legitimate reason for the LotRO PC to exist. The forums exist for that reason. Want more specifics? Then Turbine can create polls and surveys with specific answer options; lots of companies use 3rd party services for such things. Now, if the council was voted in as a semi-democratic representation in order to condense perspectives, that's another story.

But yeah, Skype or something. Companies use it for interviews and other legitimate things, so a web video conference would have made the most sense. What happened at this year's visit? Absolutely nothing of any import. :) Because nothing can come of it with resources greatly cut and content neutered. Whatever possible Beorning uptick will not last. As a PR stunt, IMO a vacation trip in 2014 of this nature paints Turbine in a much worse light than even before.

 

No you are off.  As the Dark lord Sapience said the forums did not provide the input they wanted so they had to hand pick people that would give them the feed back they wanted not real picture of whats was going on.   

 

So in short the players council was picked as justification for a road map and a customer base turbine wanted not had....

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So in short the players council was picked as justification for a road map and a customer base turbine wanted not had....

His hypocrisy on that particular topic was amusing...well in retrospect.  At the time it was infuriating.  In a direct reply to me on the beta forums, he specifically mentioned threads on the OF as reason for and justification of the reduction in number of skills and the skill tree change.  Yet at the sime time, he made posts about the numerical insignificance of the forums.

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His hypocrisy on that particular topic was amusing...well in retrospect.  At the time it was infuriating.  In a direct reply to me on the beta forums, he specifically mentioned threads on the OF as reason for and justification of the reduction in number of skills and the skill tree change.  Yet at the sime time, he made posts about the numerical insignificance of the forums.

 

Yep, I remember that.  There are a fair few other folks around who still remember too, and remember all the butt-kissers from the beta who took that particular ball and ran with it.

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