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I agree. So what do you want to call it when you hate, or spread hate, about a group of people who come from a country, or dress and look a certain way (and have a common religion)? What general term would you use for people who, for example, hate Jews? What type of prejudice is that? It is not really religion. Honestly, I don't care what you call it - racism is the closest thing in my mind when you spread hate against a group of people (like muslims or people from the middle east). If you want to call it something else, fine with me. 

 

snip

 

 

That is called Islam.

 

CrankyCat

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Which is a somewhat stupid thing to do.

What, judging a religion on its texts?

 

Especially since have very little knowledge of the scripture, the context, the vocabulary, the translation, the history, etc.

You have no idea what knowledge I have, so this is a bollocks claim. Only the second sentence and already you're talking shit.

 

You are like the rare Christian who thinks what ever is in the Bible is completely true. You take any Koran sentence out of context and think it has to be taken literally.

And you are the apologists who arbitrarily decide what should and shouldn't be taken literally, just because they say so.

 

Plus, you don't care about the actual beliefs or practices of muslims.

Finally you've got something right! It's only taken me 5 fucking pages to drill that in! As long as it doesn't impact anyone else, I don't give a flying fuck.

 

To anyone who has thought about religion and the difference between old texts and modern beliefs and practices, this looks pretty foolish and simplistic.

And back to confusing the point. It doesn't matter what modern practices are because I have never argued about that. I have only argued what the scripture contains. So you're trying to push something on me that I'm not even arguing in the first place.

 

Doro can claim this is another discussion all he wants, but yes he has IMO spread hate against muslims, and stereotyped them. He will quickly claim not all muslims, and then go off on how the majority are X, Y and Z. I did not actually say he is racist. I said he has racist views. Take that as you will. I am assuming he is tough enough not to care what I say about him. It's just my opinion.

Bull fucking shit. Show me one post I've made that's even remotely racist. Show me one post I've made that's spread hate about Muslims. Do it or shut the fuck up with this bollocks.

 

But there are no white, or black, or Asian races in reality.

jennifer-lawrence-10.gif

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I agree. So what do you want to call it when you hate, or spread hate, about a group of people who come from a country, or dress and look a certain way (and have a common religion)? What general term would you use for people who, for example, hate Jews? What type of prejudice is that? It is not really religion. Honestly, I don't care what you call it - racism is the closest thing in my mind when you spread hate against a group of people (like muslims or people from the middle east). If you want to call it something else, fine with me.

The hating of Jews is normally referred to as antisemitism

Racism can never apply to Islam, as Muslims can come from any part of the world, can come from any background and be of any race. There are plenty of Muslims that are Caucasian. So bigoted might be more appropriate, maybe even sectarian. Perhaps we need a new word like Religionism

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I agree. So what do you want to call it when you hate, or spread hate, about a group of people who come from a country, or dress and look a certain way (and have a common religion)? What general term would you use for people who, for example, hate Jews? What type of prejudice is that? It is not really religion. Honestly, I don't care what you call it - racism is the closest thing in my mind when you spread hate against a group of people (like muslims or people from the middle east). If you want to call it something else, fine with me.

 

In reality, race is made up - a social construct. Yes, people have common features. But there are no white, or black, or Asian races in reality. People don't really match these simple made up groups.

 

Doro can claim this is another discussion all he wants, but yes he has IMO spread hate against muslims, and stereotyped them. He will quickly claim not all muslims, and then go off on how the majority are X, Y and Z. I did not actually say he is racist. I said he has racist views. Take that as you will. I am assuming he is tough enough not to care what I say about him. It's just my opinion.

 

 

Discrimination.  prejudice. bigotry. intolerance

 

But I would accept Racist.

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There are plenty of muslim communities that do denounce such actions, and they do speak up. Them actually being heard and something getting done about it is another matter entirely.  No different than Catholics everywhere denouncing pedophilia in the church and the powers that be still protect them and continue the stats quo.

Uh... what?? who said it is a race? lol

That's the problem though, right? The leadership. If people who profess to follow a religion continue to support leadership that is obviously corrupt (points to the Catholic church history and the previous pope), then the whole thing is corrupt. They either need to force a change from within, or break away on their own and denounce the leadership in a very public spectacle that leaves no doubt in any minds. I'm not saying there is any basis in fact for what they believe, but I figure if you have to believe in something, peace and love isn't a bad thing to attempt to attack the world with. Beats the swords and bombs we seem to be getting.

 

 

Claiming that Doro is spreading hate is like blaming someone for reporting a crime. In actuality, the people committing the acts are spreading the hate. Doro is simply responding to it. You can't blame wood for catching fire if someone holds a match to it.

 

And labeling people racist or discriminatory without making sure they have no justified complaint on which to base their ideas, which in this case he does, is just more intolerance. I don't think it's very fair to expect anyone to feel guilty about labeling the religion Muslim as a hateful and murderous religion when it seems we have so many acts backing that up. Anymore than I'd expect anyone to feel bad pointing out that Catholics appear to be full of pedophiles. Maybe what non-murdering Muslims need to do is come up with a term that labels them in a way that separates them from the crazies amongst them. But they aren't going to be able to do that until they stand up as a whole from root to branch and cast out the problem.

 

Prejudice is something that has no real experience to base the opinion on. That's not the case here. You can't say, 'Oh, you don't know all Muslims, so can't say all Muslims are "this".' The fact is, if Muslim is the label being used by the offenders, people are justified in saying Muslims are killers, because that's the truth. You can try to water it down, but that's for the Muslims to deal with. I don't think we should be feeling guilty for responding in a morally correct way to murders.

 

Anymore than people should feel guilty for thinking pedophiles are sick degenerates that should be removed from the world, and that if the Catholic church defends them, then saying Catholics protect sickos is fair. Which I may point out is a reason a lot of practicing Catholics dropped the religion like a hot potato when these revelations came to light. Some people know what the correct response to corruption is. It sure is not tolerance.

 

Grow thicker skin.

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That's the problem though, right? The leadership. If people who profess to follow a religion continue to support leadership that is obviously corrupt (points to the Catholic church history and the previous pope), then the whole thing is corrupt. They either need to force a change from within, or break away on their own and denounce the leadership in a very public spectacle that leaves no doubt in any minds. I'm not saying there is any basis in fact for what they believe, but I figure if you have to believe in something, peace and love isn't a bad thing to attempt to attack the world with. Beats the swords and bombs we seem to be getting.

 

 

Claiming that Doro is spreading hate is like blaming someone for reporting a crime. In actuality, the people committing the acts are spreading the hate. Doro is simply responding to it. You can't blame wood for catching fire if someone holds a match to it.

 

Well said.

Had to rep this.

I agree. So what do you want to call it when you hate, or spread hate, about a group of people who come from a country, or dress and look a certain way (and have a common religion)? What general term would you use for people who, for example, hate Jews? What type of prejudice is that? It is not really religion. Honestly, I don't care what you call it - racism is the closest thing in my mind when you spread hate against a group of people (like muslims or people from the middle east). If you want to call it something else, fine with me. 

 

In reality, race is made up - a social construct. Yes, people have common features. But there are no white, or black, or Asian races in reality. People don't really match these simple made up groups.

 

Doro can claim this is another discussion all he wants, but yes he has IMO spread hate against muslims, and stereotyped them. He will quickly claim not all muslims, and then go off on how the majority are X, Y and Z. I did not actually say he is racist. I said he has racist views. Take that as you will. I am assuming he is tough enough not to care what I say about him. It's just my opinion.

 

So you agree that you shouldn't have called Doro a racist for not liking Islam(or any other religion)?

Yet, you still try and claim he is a racist for hating Islam itself.

Btw, I hate any organized religion. I guess I'm the worlds biggest racist then, eh?

Motherfucker.

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So you agree that you shouldn't have called Doro a racist for not liking Islam(or any other religion)?

Yet, you still try and claim he is a racist for hating Islam itself.

 

I commented on what Doro said about muslims - all muslims. His racist bigoted statements about muslims.

 

I don't really care what he thinks about religion.

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IMO- Some of the opinions in this thread, much like the actions of terrorist organisations such as ISIS, are nothing but the fantasy of extremists.

 

 

 

Religion does not kill people, people do. Some of those people are of certain faiths does not make the faith responsible...

fantasy of extremists
fantasy of extremists
fantasy of extremists
fantasy of extremists
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I commented on what Doro said about muslims - all muslims. His racist bigoted statements about muslims.

 

I don't really care what he thinks about religion.

I don't agree with a LOT of what Doro says, but I fully understand why he says and thinks it.

It seems because he is prepared to say what he thinks and why, others feel the easiest argument is to label him some sort of hater.

I'm a Christian, I don't think Doro could have been any more clear he hates the Christian religion as much as the Muslim one (and as a Christian, I fully understand why he and loads of others think like that, )

I'm, enjoying this debate, well I was, now it feels like it's been turned into a sort of personal attack, rather than answer any point, lets just say bigot etc.

I would join in again, but I've tried to make it clear why there's so much distrust in the UK about Muslims, I've tried to show people what the UK Muslim women are saying, how little response they have had from Mosques etc, but that wasn't worthy of any reply, far easier to pick on Doro?

I hadn't even started with my evidence, I haven't even started quoting/linking some of the UK Muslim forums that show how the men think of women etc.

But what's the point, far far easier to pick on the one person in this thread who hasn't given up on speaking how they feel about religion as a whole, and trying to find labels for him instead..

 

The hating of Jews is normally referred to as antisemitism

which is an entirely different thing from hating Judism.

On a separate note, just come across these videos

and, if you don't want to listen to all 50 mins, listen from 26 mins to some of the q and a

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The simple truth (n my opinion) is it boils down to something all religions suffer from.

 

1) The congregation not wanting to rock the boat, the congregations not wanting to upset their leaders, usually out of fear of being cast out etc.

 

2) The leaders using control techniques of various measures to make the congregation not dare publicly question things.

 

Catholics worship the Pope more than they worship God (from what I can see), I know a fair few Irish people and they all say that the priests rule, the people are scared stiff of upsetting them. 

 

Christians (in the UK) suffer from a real power and control problem, Dare to question the leadership about anything and usually you get the line

 

"are you with us or against us"

 

and they then quote for example Hebrews 13:17  at you

 

 

I have witnessed first hand, extreme cruelty in the Christian church to those at a time they need the church most. I have heard church member after church member complain behind their backs.  These same members when I say "why don't you tell them" say words along the lines of "Because I don't want to be yet another person forced to leave for dare questioning them"

 

I did question them, as a result, not only was my membership terminated, but also my wife's who had said nothing and is the most caring and loving individual you could ever meet.  I was then referred to as Satan in the next meeting (I have a recording of it) and many people told me they were horrified, but no one had the guts to say so to the leadership (and many jokes were made to my wife by my friends at the church along the lines of "what's it like to be married to Satan".

 

on a side note:

------------------------

Lots of letters went to and from me, my church and the churches head office (not correct term, but you know what I mean) , one of the things I stressed in EVERY letter was that my wife deserves an apology for being expelled just for being married to me, and I received loads of responses, not one addressed or even mentioned this.

 

My son and daughter are both atheists now, their main reason, what they witnessed in the church while growing up, how much the church hurt their mum etc and to be honest, I'm not surprised they are, the whole thing sickens me and I doubt I'll ever go to a so called Christian church in the UK again

-------------------------

 

and when church members complained to me about my treatment and I say "why don't you tell them",  they say "look what happened to your wife, and she didn't even say anything "

 

Yes I'm still very very angry 5 years later :).  

 

Worse still is when people finally have enough and go to another Church, the other church don't want them to become members unless they have made peace with their previous church, so although most left that church hating it, those same people lie to the leaders of both churches, saying things like "I feel God wants me to move to this other Church," etc  then the original church starts believing all is OK when it isn't.

 

I could literally write 100 pages on my experiences at one single church near me alone.But sadly my experience isn't limited to that one church or that one denomination (New Frontiers) 

 

But my point is, this is a Christian church full of people that can leave when they want, choose to turn up to etc and they ALL chose to complain behind the leaders backs but do NOTHING. Most have non Christian friends as well as Christians ones, it's not a part of their whole community like I get the impression the Muslim faith is. 

 

If Christians give in this easily due to the clever ways their leaders twist words, how much more likely is it in a community of Muslims where the faith is most of their community and a big part of their culture, that it's going to be far worse to question their leaders?

 

And when  you have a religion where an entire gender has virtually no say, this is an even bigger problem as if every single Muslim woman in the UK wanted to speak out against their leadership, I expect every single one would be scared to do so.

 

When you live in fear of your leaders, regardless of your beliefs, it never ends well.

With regards to the above post I made 5 days ago, this video from a Muslim shows exactly what I mean

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And yet another example of the lack of integration into the UK, from

"The Muslim Law Shariah Council UK"

http://www.shariahcouncil.org/?page_id=28

H. You are married to a man who has reverted to Islam, later he returns to his previous faith…

If you can prove this case, then your marriage is automatically void. The Nikah has been dissolved.

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And yet another example of the lack of integration into the UK, from

"The Muslim Law Shariah Council UK"

http://www.shariahcouncil.org/?page_id=28

If you married in the UK you would still need to get a divorce via a UK court. It is just the Islamic side that you can ignore. Muslims that get married in the UK, and other non Muslim countries, need to get divorced via those countries laws and they need a second divorce under Shariah Law.

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Here is one quote from you, Doro:

 

mtones, on 10 Jan 2015 - 23:23, said:snapback.png

... there always have been and always will be radicals everywhere and it is the people who chose to NOT live on the margins that get destroyed by them - AND blamed.

 

Doro replied:

Implying that radicals are the ones on the margins, not the other way around. It's the 'reformed' Muslims who are the minority. The majority sympathise with what the 'radicals' do. 

 

You clearly are saying that "the majority of muslims sympathise with what the 'radicals' do."

 

Don't bother trying to defend yourself. There is no point.

  
I will see if I can easily find some more quotes from you. btw, you are not the only one at all who is making stereotypes of muslims on this forum.

 

EDIT: more quotes from you:

"the majority of Muslims do actually sympathise with what the 'extremists' do"

 

"So when 'extremists' (whose views are actually sympathised with by most Muslims) do shit like this, it doesn't help that they've been following a religion that approves (and, simultaneously condones, such is the nature of religion) their actions."

(Here you are arguing that most muslims support the Paris shootings).

 

Here you are calling muslims "scum":

 

Politicians are afraid of Muslims. ...  Murder is a part of their culture, no matter how much they claim it is not. 

 

Doro replies:

I hope that the rest of Europe starts to stand up to these scum as well. There's a correlation between crime and Islamic presence in Europe that many politicians refuse to acknowledge for fear of sounding 'racist' (as if it's a race at all).

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If you married in the UK you would still need to get a divorce via a UK court. It is just the Islamic side that you can ignore. Muslims that get married in the UK, and other non Muslim countries, need to get divorced via those countries laws and they need a second divorce under Shariah Law.

 

Catholics have a similar situation

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Doro replied:

 

You clearly are saying that "the majority of muslims sympathise with what the 'radicals' do."

 

Which they do. But none of that is being racist, or about all Muslims, or spreading hatred. It's just a fact that the majority of Muslims believe Allah and Muhammad should be out of reach to satire and mocking. You've no doubt seen the amount of Muslims who have said that Charlie Hebdo shouldn't insult Islam, so it's their fault they were attacked. That isn't a minority opinion. Reformed Muslims are the minority, as I've said all along.

 

EDIT: more quotes from you:

"the majority of Muslims do actually sympathise with what the 'extremists' do"

 

Same as above (that was actually the explanation of the first post, which I notice you've neglected to include so the context matches your agenda).

 

"So when 'extremists' (whose views are actually sympathised with by most Muslims) do shit like this, it doesn't help that they've been following a religion that approves (and, simultaneously condones, such is the nature of religion) their actions."

 

Same as above.

 

Here you are calling muslims "scum":

Doro replies:

I hope that the rest of Europe starts to stand up to these scum as well. There's a correlation between crime and Islamic presence in Europe that many politicians refuse to acknowledge for fear of sounding 'racist' (as if it's a race at all).

 

Taking that entirely out of context, considering Jackalope said 'If we think something needs saying, even if it's in a caricature, then it's gonna get said, and if that bothers you, then maybe you ought to try looking at yourselves first before launching Jihad at the world.'

Jihadis being the key point there.

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Doro, the idea that most muslims in the world support the killings in Paris is ridiculous. You have no evidence that muslims in all of the countries around the world (billions of people) support the killing of those journalists. Honestly, it seems like a ridiculous idea.

 

I even have no idea how many muslims think a cartoon of the prophet is wrong, but that is a completely different thing. I might think minor theft is wrong, but that doesn't mean I think someone who does a petty theft should be killed. I probably just think they should not do it.

 

You kept making these broad statements about the majority of muslims. If you said muslims from this country support X then that is at least arguable (and there might be some evidence yes or no). But you are talking about billions of people in hundreds of different countries.

 

For example, it is highly questionable that the majority of the 2.5 million muslims in the US support the killings. This is completely contrary to you statements about "majority of muslims". Muslims around the world have condemned the shootings. But you ignore that because it doesn't fit into your worldview.

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Nosam, stop shifting the goalposts.

You're too eager to fling the accusation that someone is being a racist around, it's not the first time you have done so, and it's unlikely to be the last time.

Calling the Jihadists scum isn't being racists.

Saying that the majority sympathize with the radicals isn't being racists. It's also not the majority condoning what the jihadists doing.

You can sympathize with someone without condoning their actions. Try wrapping your head around it.

You can say "Islamist Extremists are scum" without inferring that all Muslims are scum.

You can say "the Christian right wing nutjobs are morons" without implying that all who are christians are morons.

 

Saying something bad about any particular religion doesn't make it an attack on those who follow it.

Get your head around that. Because you are seemingly too ill-equipped to separate attacking an ideology and attacking the followers of an ideology (religions are ideologies)

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Doro, the idea that most muslims in the world support the killings in Paris is ridiculous.

Probably to someone with such a bleeding heart, as you. The world is nothing but roses and smiles, right?

You have no evidence that muslims in all of the countries around the world (billions of people) support the killing of those journalists. Honestly, it seems like a ridiculous idea.

Read A post you've quoted but clearly not read properly.

 

I even have no idea how many muslims think a cartoon of the prophet is wrong, but that is a completely different thing. I might think minor theft is wrong, but that doesn't mean I think someone who does a petty theft should be killed. I probably just think they should not do it.

There's a difference. In this case, many Muslims have blamed Charlie Hebdo for creating the drawings in the first place. And many still continue to demand they do not publish such things again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30858044

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-30848689

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-30862944

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-30863159

Note, they aren't protesting against extremism. They're protesting against the very thing the extremists attacked.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30822460

A video of some Muslim leaders calling for 'restraint', but average British Muslims still expressing that their religion takes precedent over freedom of expression.

 

You kept making these broad statements about the majority of muslims. If you said muslims from this country support X then that is at least arguable (and there might be some evidence yes or no). But you are talking about billions of people in hundreds of different countries.

There's enough evidence.

 

For example, it is highly questionable that the majority of the 2.5 million muslims in the US support the killings. This is completely contrary to you statements about "majority of muslims". Muslims around the world have condemned the shootings. But you ignore that because it doesn't fit into your worldview.

The majority of them are still ignoring the shootings and clashing over pictures.

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Stop talking out your arse, Doro, ffs.

 

muslims condeming things.

http://muslimscondemningthings.tumblr.com/

 

Think Muslims Haven’t Condemned ISIS? Think Again

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2014/08/think-muslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html

 

Muslim attitudes towards terrorism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism

 

Stop asking Muslims to condemn terrorism. It's bigoted and Islamophobic.

 

http://www.vox.com/2014/12/15/7394223/muslims-condemn-charlie-hebdo

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You know the whole "don't feed the trolls"? 

 

Applies to terrorists.

 

Good job, Doro.  Keep spreading that attitude, makes it easier for confused muslim teenagers to focus all that unspent energy on joining a jihadist group.  Also gives jihadists recruiting adults more material to say "see?  westerners are nothing to be safe about!".

 

Bin Laden sure did a fine job on sept 11.  He takes out two buildings, the US raze a country, the islamic world builds up a bigger grudge, the islamists have more fodder for their attacks, the US reacts with more troops, the US razes another spot, more muslims get pissy to the point of extremism... so on so forth.

 

It only makes sense to piss off as many as possible in the home front, and keep ranting and going Fox News on the still calm ones to make sure they get pissed off because, God forbid, if we don't,one of them might keep acting normal and disprove the "all Muslims want us dead" theory.

 

If Christians, Muslims, or Buddhists woke up one day and decided they wanted the rest of us dead.... ohboy.  

 

Hint: last nation to put together a significant force of suicide bombers had to have two cities nuked to get them to stop and the whole string of incidents was referred to as a "World War".

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Stop talking out your arse, Doro, ffs.

 

muslims condeming things.

http://muslimscondemningthings.tumblr.com/

 

Think Muslims Haven’t Condemned ISIS? Think Again

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2014/08/think-muslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html

 

Muslim attitudes towards terrorism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism

Yeah, so many links you gave of protests against terrorism. Strange that a few Tweets from some individuals are considered enough, but it's all protesting and violence if people draw pictures.

Also, that last link you gave also spoke about support of terrorism and gave a link to a page on Islamism.

 

Stop asking Muslims to condemn terrorism. It's bigoted and Islamophobic.

When it's terrorism in the name of their religion, it's their place.

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Stop asking Muslims to condemn terrorism. It's bigoted and Islamophobic.

Ok, now we can't even ask Muslims to condemn terrorism.

 

The Islamic world needs to root out the elements of its religion that are against freedom of religion and freedom of expression. It needs to separate Church and State. It needs a whole bunch of things you might call a Reformation. That begins with condemning terrorism but also includes condemning the horrible treatment of women and gay people in much of the Islamic world (especially the closer you get to Mecca). It means condemning the no-go zones where, more and more, fire and ambulance are afraid to go without police escort. It means condemning the laws against leaving the religion.

 

After they are condemned, changes need to be proposed and introduced. The ones who promote violence need to be exposed. The ones who reformers think might do violence need to be reported to the authorities. New information and ideas from the modern world need to be transmitted and taught instead of being shut out. Denying that at least a sizeable minority are doing what they are doing in the name of what they think are actions supported by their religion will get nobody anywhere.

 

It begins with condemnation of Islamic terrorism but there's tons more work to do.

 

(It also includes the Western Press fucking showing the Charlie Hebdo covers that are the centre of the story instead of limp wristedly trying not to offend. Lots more the Western Leaders could do instead of trying to defend the Muslim religion every time someone kills people while screaming "Allahu Akbar".)

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Maconabo, you just proved you are a moron with that statement.

Butthurt over the Scottish referendum, and now just a moron with saying it's bigoted and islamophobic to ask muslims to condemn terrorism.

Of course they should condemn it, like most normal people.

And of course there are muslims that condemn terrorism, and I don't see them whinging about it being islamophobic or bigoted.

 

I love how white people always feel the need to speak up for those they deem can't speak for themselves.

There are certain people over here that display these characteristics. That, to me, is more racist and considerably more bigoted.


Then again...... get me an auditorium..... 

 

Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays I get Muslims... 

 

Tuesdays Thursdays Saturdays I get feminazis...

 

Month-long seminars on NOT BEING SO FUCKING SENSITIVE ABOUT EVERYTHING.

 

I'd think you'd have to change that to year-long or decade-long.

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