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Lotro PvPers...are they really that bad?

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LotRO PvMP around Book 14-15 (just before Moria) was brilliant.

 

Definitely. It was easily the best, most balanced PvMP in all of SoA, and perhaps ever. I'd say the 65 cap before f2p was at least as good, but nothing else since has come close to either.

 

It'll never happen, but I'd dearly love to see a legacy server at the 65 cap. 

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That is not what open battleground (like Lotro PvPM map) is about.    Same goes for open pvp games.

 

They never was never about sportmanship or being fair. 

 

 

Eww, that's some disgusting sportsmanship right there. Horde mode, backstabbing and camping all the way! PvP is just a series of grey, boring encounters when people play by the unspoken rules.

 

I know PvMP is not supposed to be about that, and I don't whine when people go full out zerging. Still, I think it shows something positive when people respect that part of the game and actually try to make it fun for both sides.

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The best kind of PvP is the one where you can't trust even your own team-mates. Chivalry (before they broke it) had an amazing free-for-all option but people would still form loose alliances with each other... and when you betrayed your own team they'd hunt you down and new alliances would form mid-battle. I'd like an MMO with that in it.

 

That will never be the best kind of PvP for a very simple reason... you can't emulate the "real world" consequences for being a murdering psychopath in a game.

They hunt you down? Seriously, what a joke. You never get perma-killed, you always respawn, who cares? They kill that griefer once, in the meantime he has ruined the game for a dozen of defenseless low levels. He always wins.

And perma-death doesn't work either anyway, a lag spike, and Internet problem beyond your control, and you just lost the character you invested thousands of hours in? Yeah, that would be SO successful.

There's also the problem of detecting murder and avoiding exploits (like another guy abusing game mechanics to get you flagged as murderer).

 

Any games which tried that have either failed or were forced to add alternatives (like UO with Trammel).

 

That kind of setting just doesn't work in a MMORPG. All it results in is a gankfest where PvP takes over the whole game.

 

 

This would be a great option for a Game of Thrones MMO with all the scheming and backstabbing that's inherent in the story.

 

 

I have a very precise idea of what a Game of Thrones MMORPG could be, but it doesn't involve FFA PvP all over the map, because I have way too much experience in this genre to believe that the model can work.

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I have a very precise idea of what a Game of Thrones MMORPG could be, but it doesn't involve FFA PvP all over the map, because I have way too much experience in this genre to believe that the model can work.

Please share!

 

I wouldn't have open world PvP every where, but I may have either zones or factions, or both, that are PvP.

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Please share!

 

I wouldn't have open world PvP every where, but I may have either zones or factions, or both, that are PvP.

 

Dang, I have to find my document again... made that quite a few years ago when I first read ASOIAF.

 

Basically, "Great House" main areas (Stark, Lannister, etc...) would be safe for allies of those houses (aka they can't be attacked "on sight" but have to be involved in battle first). Enemies in those areas can be attacked by anyone of the defending faction, yet that action flags the defender's character or group to PvP.

 

And you have "border" areas between each great house territory which are contested and which are basically FFA PvP against the enemy houses, which are variable in size and can be conquered too. Thing is, in the books/series, a great house can basically be wiped out. That doesn't work too well for a game. Instead of that, some houses losing can be reduced to their minimum size... yet the PvE players of that faction can still enjoy their playstyle without being ganked all the time.

 

 

I also had a "traitor" system, but it doesn't involve suddenly turning traitor as a max level char in a newbie area and slaughter them all.

The whole idea was to get world PvP without the usual problems, like insane amount of ganking taking over the whole world.

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That will never be the best kind of PvP for a very simple reason... you can't emulate the "real world" consequences for being a murdering psychopath in a game.

They hunt you down? Seriously, what a joke. You never get perma-killed, you always respawn, who cares? They kill that griefer once, in the meantime he has ruined the game for a dozen of defenseless low levels. He always wins.

 

You greatly underestimate how long people can hold a grudge. In LotRO alone, I made my warg public enemy number 1. It didn't matter if it was zerg vs zerg, if they spotted me watching from the side they'd stop everything and chase me. And this happened for months. Makes people weigh up if the effort to survive the next few months unmolested is worth the betrayal. And with everyone able to attack you, it makes that choice harder.

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Lotro "pvmp" sucks because unlike games that are designed with pvp in mind, monster play was tacked on to satisfy that percentage of players who consider pvp a must.  Unfortunately that also means that the creeps were designed specifically to serve their role in pvmp.  Freeps were designed as a pve only thing.  The problem with this is that there will never be "balance" because there are no freep classes designed specifically to counter creep classes and vice versa.  Most games that are pvp centric or have a fairly robust pvp element have class parity.   Wizard may be great at killing a warrior but loses to a rogue and so on and so forth.  The only way Turbine can balance pvmp is by flip flopping which side has the advantage, or in this current guise, which classes have the advantage.  This is never going to change, unless they create entire freep classes designed strictly for pvp, or create skill sets that are pvp only.  Removing audacity would be a nice start as well.

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Lotro PvMP sucks because it was simply forgotten by the devs. Now it's just irreparable.

 

Give me a legacy server, and I'll give you all my fucking money, no need for an ingame cash shop.

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Lotro "pvmp" sucks because unlike games that are designed with pvp in mind, monster play was tacked on to satisfy that percentage of players who consider pvp a must.  Unfortunately that also means that the creeps were designed specifically to serve their role in pvmp.  Freeps were designed as a pve only thing.  The problem with this is that there will never be "balance" because there are no freep classes designed specifically to counter creep classes and vice versa.  Most games that are pvp centric or have a fairly robust pvp element have class parity.   Wizard may be great at killing a warrior but loses to a rogue and so on and so forth.  The only way Turbine can balance pvmp is by flip flopping which side has the advantage, or in this current guise, which classes have the advantage.  This is never going to change, unless they create entire freep classes designed strictly for pvp, or create skill sets that are pvp only.  Removing audacity would be a nice start as well.

Really? Are you saying that Creeps were better suited to PvP over Freeps? Then why through almost the entirety of the game were Creeps consistantly getting 1 shot by Freeps? Yet I have never, ever heard of a Freep getting 1 shot by a Creep, except back when level 40's could still come out.

 

 Unfortunately that also means that the creeps were designed specifically to serve their role in pvmp.  Freeps were designed as a pve only thing

 

I would reword that as Creeps were designed solely for PvP while Freeps were designed for both roles. If you don't respec and regear your Freep for da moors then you're doing it wrong. Freeps have far more leeway in how to spec than Creeps, even with skill trees. Creeps have 3 builds, full health, survivability (this one being relatively new), full DPS, the latter 2 being mostly a joke.

 

Removing audacity would be great, worst idea evah.

 

Generally, IMO, Creeps got stronger within a group, but individual Freeps were generally stronger than individual Creeps, with some class exceptions. Now this wasn't because Creeps skills meshed within a group better than Freeps, quite the opposite. Freep skills mesh very well in PvE raiding and they mesh just as well in PvP raiding. The difference is Creeps have to group and learned to work well together because they had no other choice. This is engrained from when you were a greenie. Freeps don't neccessarily have to group, unless going against a well organized Creep group and from my experience on my server they rarely worked well together. The best Freep raids were the kins groups that PvE raided, they were use to working with each other and generally would wipe even the best Creep groups, unless severely outnumbered.

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Really? Are you saying that Creeps were better suited to PvP over Freeps? Then why through almost the entirety of the game were Creeps consistantly getting 1 shot by Freeps? Yet I have never, ever heard of a Freep getting 1 shot by a Creep, except back when level 40's could still come out.

 

 Unfortunately that also means that the creeps were designed specifically to serve their role in pvmp.  Freeps were designed as a pve only thing

 

I would reword that as Creeps were designed solely for PvP while Freeps were designed for both roles. If you don't respec and regear your Freep for da moors then you're doing it wrong. Freeps have far more leeway in how to spec than Creeps, even with skill trees. Creeps have 3 builds, full health, survivability (this one being relatively new), full DPS, the latter 2 being mostly a joke.

 

Removing audacity would be great, worst idea evah.

 

Generally, IMO, Creeps got stronger within a group, but individual Freeps were generally stronger than individual Creeps, with some class exceptions. Now this wasn't because Creeps skills meshed within a group better than Freeps, quite the opposite. Freep skills mesh very well in PvE raiding and they mesh just as well in PvP raiding. The difference is Creeps have to group and learned to work well together because they had no other choice. This is engrained from when you were a greenie. Freeps don't neccessarily have to group, unless going against a well organized Creep group and from my experience on my server they rarely worked well together. The best Freep raids were the kins groups that PvE raided, they were use to working with each other and generally would wipe even the best Creep groups, unless severely outnumbered.

 

Regardless of whether creeps have typically held the short end of the stick the point is pvmp has never been given any serious attention by the devs.   Removing audacity would be good because it would lower the price of admission.  Then there would be more people doing pvmp and perhaps the devs would finally do something.  I'm not saying that they shouldn't do something in place of audacity, I"m only suggesting that the cost for gear and aud for creeps is an unnecessary roadblock.  The aud gear is actually pretty pathetic and is only good for aud.  Honestly, creeps should always be weaker than freeps and should always require grouping.  Freeps after all are the heroes of the game and from a lore perspective should have an advantage in pvp.  It's not that bad now but no class should be able to take on 3 or 4 people and live no matter how much of a noob those 4 people are.

 

Regardless of whether creeps have typically held the short end of the stick the point is pvmp has never been given any serious attention by the devs.   Removing audacity would be good because it would lower the price of admission.  Then there would be more people doing pvmp and perhaps the devs would finally do something.  I'm not saying that they shouldn't do something in place of audacity, I"m only suggesting that the cost for gear and aud for creeps is an unnecessary roadblock.  The aud gear is actually pretty pathetic and is only good for aud.  Honestly, creeps should always be weaker than freeps and should always require grouping.  Freeps after all are the heroes of the game and from a lore perspective should have an advantage in pvp.  It's not that bad now but no class should be able to take on 3 or 4 people and live no matter how much of a noob those 4 people are.

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Regardless of whether creeps have typically held the short end of the stick the point is pvmp has never been given any serious attention by the devs.   Removing audacity would be good because it would lower the price of admission.  Then there would be more people doing pvmp and perhaps the devs would finally do something.  I'm not saying that they shouldn't do something in place of audacity, I"m only suggesting that the cost for gear and aud for creeps is an unnecessary roadblock.  The aud gear is actually pretty pathetic and is only good for aud.  Honestly, creeps should always be weaker than freeps and should always require grouping.  Freeps after all are the heroes of the game and from a lore perspective should have an advantage in pvp.  It's not that bad now but no class should be able to take on 3 or 4 people and live no matter how much of a noob those 4 people are.

 

PvP at least worked before Turbine started paying it attention. Then it just became a p2w-fest and killed it off entirely. It's all too far gone to save.

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Regardless of whether creeps have typically held the short end of the stick the point is pvmp has never been given any serious attention by the devs.   Removing audacity would be good because it would lower the price of admission.  Then there would be more people doing pvmp and perhaps the devs would finally do something.  I'm not saying that they shouldn't do something in place of audacity, I"m only suggesting that the cost for gear and aud for creeps is an unnecessary roadblock.  The aud gear is actually pretty pathetic and is only good for aud.  Honestly, creeps should always be weaker than freeps and should always require grouping.  Freeps after all are the heroes of the game and from a lore perspective should have an advantage in pvp.  It's not that bad now but no class should be able to take on 3 or 4 people and live no matter how much of a noob those 4 people are.

I agree with the removal of audacity, it was just another turbine enforced grind, but I can't agree that Creeps should always be weaker than Freeps, especially before F2P. Creeps were paying a sub just like Freeps, why should they be second class citizens? I understand the logic and it would fit with the lore, but it's certainly unfair to anyone that choose to play Creep.

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PvP at least worked before Turbine started paying it attention. Then it just became a p2w-fest and killed it off entirely. It's all too far gone to save.

^^^^^THIS!

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Audacity was the single worst thing that happen to my own enjoyment of PvMP. At the 65 cap, I regularly played all creep classes, and almost all freep clases (usually with just 1-2 freep mains) and could generally beat any class 1v1 with any of my creeps. Skill mattered more than just "gear" (i.e. aud) 

 

Ever since the introduction of aud I've never once had a creep hit max aud, and rarely got that far with a freep (I think just once) The concept is horrible - essentially a barrier to play before you can play for "real", but you have to play to get through the barrier. All it did was encourage people to "farm" on their mains so they could gear out alts. (Or encourage those who didn't want to farm to just not play)

 

In regards to the creeps being weaker than freeps concept, this originally made sense at release and was the stated design. The barrier to entering creep play was low - level 10 freep and find a fell scrying pool (until they added the link on the opening screen) Getting freeps to cap (geared, traited) took longer than it does now. The very different combat system meant the impact of level difference was massive. I remember my 40 burg hitting a 50 WL for single digit damage with a crit SS from stealth. Depending on class, freeps were only really somewhat viable around 47-48, but really had to hit 50 to excel.

 

Initially PvMP was very much designed as a side game, one stated purpose was for freeps to get destiny to help with PvE. There was no need for "balance" since "balance" meant anyone could play a creep or a freep if they wanted to. As I recall, Turbine was surprised at the popularity of PvMP, particularly the number of players who became creep only players. This led to the sentiment Spidey mentions above: "Creeps were paying a sub just like Freeps, why should they be second class citizens?" The original design didn't consider the possibility that anyone would pay their sub to play just part of the side game.  

 

I don't recall exactly when, but Turbine eventually officially changed their stance and stated that PvMP will be balanced 1 creep = 1 freep (not necessarily all classes of one = any one class of the other.) They definitely succeeded at this (I suspect more by accident than design) at the late 50 cap and at 65. Other times - like early Moria - were hilariously one sided. (For the record, I do think the change to freep/creep parity was the correct one)

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The original design didn't consider the possibility that anyone would pay their sub to play just part of the side game.

Exactly. The only reason I raided and levelled up and grinded best gear/virtues was because of PvP. That was my end-game. The rest was just the path to PvP. And the whole time Turbine just saw it as a side game, when to many others like me it was THE game.

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Exactly. The only reason I raided and levelled up and grinded best gear/virtues was because of PvP. That was my end-game. The rest was just the path to PvP. And the whole time Turbine just saw it as a side game, when to many others like me it was THE game.

 

That's a good point. In my previous post, I was mainly thinking of how unexpected the popularity of playing creep only was, but the popularity of freep PvMP as THE end game was similarly unexpected.

 

Your post also points to another issue that the "hardly anyone raids/pvps" gaggle refused to ever accept - that everyone who raided and pvped also participated in a lot of "solo" activity that was 100% preparation for raiding and/or PvMP. They just didn't understand that if player X spent 2 hours in raids (or pvp), and 8 hours solo in direct preparation for raiding/pvp, that was in reality 10 hours of raid/pvp play. Not 2 hours of raiding/pvp and 8 hours solo. Remove or ruin raids or pvp, and that 10 hours didn't drop to 8 as the idiots assumed - it dropped to zero.

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As I've said before, the whole thing was unbalanced from the get-go, because freeps were able to take advantages from PvE into the PvMP environment.  If freeps were built in the same way that creeps were built - completely separate from PvE altogether - then I think that, even as a microcosm of play, it would be a better foundation.

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As I've said before, the whole thing was unbalanced from the get-go, because freeps were able to take advantages from PvE into the PvMP environment.  If freeps were built in the same way that creeps were built - completely separate from PvE altogether - then I think that, even as a microcosm of play, it would be a better foundation.

 

I've often heard this sentiment and have never agreed. To me, it's just another iteration of the distasteful "make everything the same" mantra. The all too often used argument that "same" = "easily balanced" might be true, but makes for a very dull experience. Much the same argument was used for changes to freep classes over the years to make them more alike, all equally able to do XYZ, to be "fair." I actually enjoyed leveling my guard almost to 50 before overpowered existed. My brother enjoyed his minstrel before warspeech was introduced. I enjoyed the fact classes played very differently. We all had access to play any class, to me that was all the "fairness" that was required. Requiring class X to be equal in all things to class Y for the game to be "fair" never made any sense to me, as that seemed to require conflating the character with the person playing it.

 

A huge idiot move that Turbine made that further killed the moors was making kbs "fair" ... even though not a single regular moors player had asked for this in the history of the game. Everyone understood that say the kbs a cappy earned were "worth" more than those of a hunter.

 

When it came to PvMP, your suggestion was often proposed. As was the opposite: giving creeps a full PvE experience. Neither had universal support. Many (most, at release) creep players preferred the minimal PvE. Freep players enjoyed the massive variety of ways they could develop and their characters in PvE with the goal of being able to perform better in PvMP.

 

This difference does not (and did not) necessarily guarantee an imbalance in PvP, nor did it guarantee freeps an advantage. Freeps had full use of their "advantages from PvE" at book 14 of the 50 cap, yet the moors was amazingly well balanced. Similarly at 65. These were also times when skill mattered more than gear. I excelled in the moors on my champ at 65 in mostly quest gear. I recall another champ in full BG armour who was free infamy.

 

Ultimately, most of the moves towards "fairness" I've seen Turbine make over the years reminded me of the the Simpson's episode where Bart is sent off to some special school where they play musical chairs. The music stops. There are more chairs than kids. They all sit down. The teach cries something like "everyone wins!"

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If I could have ever changed one thing about LOTRO PVMP, it would have been restricting a player from creating a creep on the same server that he/she created a freep.

 

As for the OP, as many others have said, PVP brings out the inner moron in most everyone at some point, but the asshats truly come into their own there.  I saw pathetic cowards hailed as great leaders, outright fabrication of events in zone-chat to garner favor/respect/sympathy from others, hypocrisy of the highest order, and little consequences to one's actions for anyone.  I despised the unwritten rules people spouted on about because I saw them used on a regular basis to manipulate others rather than create some kind of chivalrous environment.

 

I enjoyed it more when I expected the absolute worst from others. Anything different was a recipe for disappointment.

 

Ultimately it was a no-win situation. Use the environment and skills at your disposal and you got labeled any number of things. Play by the 'rules' and watch others you are competing against NOT play by the rules.

 

I prefer the notion of PVP-by-Doro. Anything goes. I know Tolkien had Eomer dismount and fight Ugluk hand-to-hand, but the creeps should have been treated as vermin to be exterminated by freeps. Freeps should have been 'man flesh' to be hacked to pieces and eaten or flung to the crows.

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If I could have ever changed one thing about LOTRO PVMP, it would have been restricting a player from creating a creep on the same server that he/she created a freep.

 

As for the OP, as many others have said, PVP brings out the inner moron in most everyone at some point, but the asshats truly come into their own there.  I saw pathetic cowards hailed as great leaders, outright fabrication of events in zone-chat to garner favor/respect/sympathy from others, hypocrisy of the highest order, and little consequences to one's actions for anyone.  I despised the unwritten rules people spouted on about because I saw them used on a regular basis to manipulate others rather than create some kind of chivalrous environment.

 

I enjoyed it more when I expected the absolute worst from others. Anything different was a recipe for disappointment.

 

Ultimately it was a no-win situation. Use the environment and skills at your disposal and you got labeled any number of things. Play by the 'rules' and watch others you are competing against NOT play by the rules.

 

I prefer the notion of PVP-by-Doro. Anything goes. I know Tolkien had Eomer dismount and fight Ugluk hand-to-hand, but the creeps should have been treated as vermin to be exterminated by freeps. Freeps should have been 'man flesh' to be hacked to pieces and eaten or flung to the crows.

I agree with the idea that it should be a free for all.  Too many times I have witnessed freeps standing around 1v1 circles getting ganked only to spout off about some unwritten gentlemen's agreement.  However, if they want to be idiots and feed creeps then by all means go ahead.

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I agree with the idea that it should be a free for all.  Too many times I have witnessed freeps standing around 1v1 circles getting ganked only to spout off about some unwritten gentlemen's agreement.  However, if they want to be idiots and feed creeps then by all means go ahead.

 

If the "agreement" isn't agreed upon by everyone on the field, then it's null.

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If you're gonna complain about getting your ass handed to you, don't travel to a PvP zone.

In an ideal world... that simply wasn't the case in the Moors.  Not on Landroval anyway. Perhaps the lack of 'mirrored classes' fed that to some degree.  Any champ that used a bubble in a duel was a target for ridicule.  A minstrel that self-healed? Captain that self-healed? Warden that used a shield stance? All worthy of the highest scorn. The ability to swap sides and enter the environment of the opposite side to add the ridicule made it all the worse.

 

Of course, PVP being PVP, if you did NOT use those overpowered (OP) skills, you still got accused of it. And if you didn't use them and died, you did so out of ignorance and got the L2P label.  

 

If other PVP games are that much worse than LOTRO, I shudder at what this forebodes for humanity.

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I have never understood why using all the skills your class has is seen as bad.

I would like to see a PVP system based on Rock Paper scissors. Classes would be placed into one of three types (or each classes has 3 stances) and each type is strong against one and weak against another. This could lead to some interesting battles where you have to decide how to balance your raid. To much of one type could make you to hard to defeat but get it wrong and you get wiped out easily. This would work best in battleground matches, where you have to pick your type before the match starts and could only change in once or twice during the whole match.

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