Jump to content
LOTROCommunity

Lotro PvPers...are they really that bad?


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 1.5k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

It's entirely up to the companies to decide how to interpret the NDA in relation to my comments. If they want to 'come after me', as you put it, they know who I am. I do appreciate your concern on t

Modbreak: Dear GameDev, Please refrain from posting personal information on this board. Given your geolocation, it might be perceived as a rather vengeful thing. Say hi to the rest of Turbine

I agree with this on a personal level. First post here although I consider this forum superior to the official one (where most of my posts over the years were confined to grants on rank x threads)

Posted Images

That is not what open battleground (like Lotro PvPM map) is about.    Same goes for open pvp games.

 

They never was never about sportmanship or being fair. 

 

 

Eww, that's some disgusting sportsmanship right there. Horde mode, backstabbing and camping all the way! PvP is just a series of grey, boring encounters when people play by the unspoken rules.

 

I know PvMP is not supposed to be about that, and I don't whine when people go full out zerging. Still, I think it shows something positive when people respect that part of the game and actually try to make it fun for both sides.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The best kind of PvP is the one where you can't trust even your own team-mates. Chivalry (before they broke it) had an amazing free-for-all option but people would still form loose alliances with each other... and when you betrayed your own team they'd hunt you down and new alliances would form mid-battle. I'd like an MMO with that in it.

 

That will never be the best kind of PvP for a very simple reason... you can't emulate the "real world" consequences for being a murdering psychopath in a game.

They hunt you down? Seriously, what a joke. You never get perma-killed, you always respawn, who cares? They kill that griefer once, in the meantime he has ruined the game for a dozen of defenseless low levels. He always wins.

And perma-death doesn't work either anyway, a lag spike, and Internet problem beyond your control, and you just lost the character you invested thousands of hours in? Yeah, that would be SO successful.

There's also the problem of detecting murder and avoiding exploits (like another guy abusing game mechanics to get you flagged as murderer).

 

Any games which tried that have either failed or were forced to add alternatives (like UO with Trammel).

 

That kind of setting just doesn't work in a MMORPG. All it results in is a gankfest where PvP takes over the whole game.

 

 

This would be a great option for a Game of Thrones MMO with all the scheming and backstabbing that's inherent in the story.

 

 

I have a very precise idea of what a Game of Thrones MMORPG could be, but it doesn't involve FFA PvP all over the map, because I have way too much experience in this genre to believe that the model can work.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

I have a very precise idea of what a Game of Thrones MMORPG could be, but it doesn't involve FFA PvP all over the map, because I have way too much experience in this genre to believe that the model can work.

Please share!

 

I wouldn't have open world PvP every where, but I may have either zones or factions, or both, that are PvP.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please share!

 

I wouldn't have open world PvP every where, but I may have either zones or factions, or both, that are PvP.

 

Dang, I have to find my document again... made that quite a few years ago when I first read ASOIAF.

 

Basically, "Great House" main areas (Stark, Lannister, etc...) would be safe for allies of those houses (aka they can't be attacked "on sight" but have to be involved in battle first). Enemies in those areas can be attacked by anyone of the defending faction, yet that action flags the defender's character or group to PvP.

 

And you have "border" areas between each great house territory which are contested and which are basically FFA PvP against the enemy houses, which are variable in size and can be conquered too. Thing is, in the books/series, a great house can basically be wiped out. That doesn't work too well for a game. Instead of that, some houses losing can be reduced to their minimum size... yet the PvE players of that faction can still enjoy their playstyle without being ganked all the time.

 

 

I also had a "traitor" system, but it doesn't involve suddenly turning traitor as a max level char in a newbie area and slaughter them all.

The whole idea was to get world PvP without the usual problems, like insane amount of ganking taking over the whole world.

Link to post
Share on other sites

That will never be the best kind of PvP for a very simple reason... you can't emulate the "real world" consequences for being a murdering psychopath in a game.

They hunt you down? Seriously, what a joke. You never get perma-killed, you always respawn, who cares? They kill that griefer once, in the meantime he has ruined the game for a dozen of defenseless low levels. He always wins.

 

You greatly underestimate how long people can hold a grudge. In LotRO alone, I made my warg public enemy number 1. It didn't matter if it was zerg vs zerg, if they spotted me watching from the side they'd stop everything and chase me. And this happened for months. Makes people weigh up if the effort to survive the next few months unmolested is worth the betrayal. And with everyone able to attack you, it makes that choice harder.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lotro "pvmp" sucks because unlike games that are designed with pvp in mind, monster play was tacked on to satisfy that percentage of players who consider pvp a must.  Unfortunately that also means that the creeps were designed specifically to serve their role in pvmp.  Freeps were designed as a pve only thing.  The problem with this is that there will never be "balance" because there are no freep classes designed specifically to counter creep classes and vice versa.  Most games that are pvp centric or have a fairly robust pvp element have class parity.   Wizard may be great at killing a warrior but loses to a rogue and so on and so forth.  The only way Turbine can balance pvmp is by flip flopping which side has the advantage, or in this current guise, which classes have the advantage.  This is never going to change, unless they create entire freep classes designed strictly for pvp, or create skill sets that are pvp only.  Removing audacity would be a nice start as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lotro "pvmp" sucks because unlike games that are designed with pvp in mind, monster play was tacked on to satisfy that percentage of players who consider pvp a must.  Unfortunately that also means that the creeps were designed specifically to serve their role in pvmp.  Freeps were designed as a pve only thing.  The problem with this is that there will never be "balance" because there are no freep classes designed specifically to counter creep classes and vice versa.  Most games that are pvp centric or have a fairly robust pvp element have class parity.   Wizard may be great at killing a warrior but loses to a rogue and so on and so forth.  The only way Turbine can balance pvmp is by flip flopping which side has the advantage, or in this current guise, which classes have the advantage.  This is never going to change, unless they create entire freep classes designed strictly for pvp, or create skill sets that are pvp only.  Removing audacity would be a nice start as well.

Really? Are you saying that Creeps were better suited to PvP over Freeps? Then why through almost the entirety of the game were Creeps consistantly getting 1 shot by Freeps? Yet I have never, ever heard of a Freep getting 1 shot by a Creep, except back when level 40's could still come out.

 

 Unfortunately that also means that the creeps were designed specifically to serve their role in pvmp.  Freeps were designed as a pve only thing

 

I would reword that as Creeps were designed solely for PvP while Freeps were designed for both roles. If you don't respec and regear your Freep for da moors then you're doing it wrong. Freeps have far more leeway in how to spec than Creeps, even with skill trees. Creeps have 3 builds, full health, survivability (this one being relatively new), full DPS, the latter 2 being mostly a joke.

 

Removing audacity would be great, worst idea evah.

 

Generally, IMO, Creeps got stronger within a group, but individual Freeps were generally stronger than individual Creeps, with some class exceptions. Now this wasn't because Creeps skills meshed within a group better than Freeps, quite the opposite. Freep skills mesh very well in PvE raiding and they mesh just as well in PvP raiding. The difference is Creeps have to group and learned to work well together because they had no other choice. This is engrained from when you were a greenie. Freeps don't neccessarily have to group, unless going against a well organized Creep group and from my experience on my server they rarely worked well together. The best Freep raids were the kins groups that PvE raided, they were use to working with each other and generally would wipe even the best Creep groups, unless severely outnumbered.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Really? Are you saying that Creeps were better suited to PvP over Freeps? Then why through almost the entirety of the game were Creeps consistantly getting 1 shot by Freeps? Yet I have never, ever heard of a Freep getting 1 shot by a Creep, except back when level 40's could still come out.

 

 Unfortunately that also means that the creeps were designed specifically to serve their role in pvmp.  Freeps were designed as a pve only thing

 

I would reword that as Creeps were designed solely for PvP while Freeps were designed for both roles. If you don't respec and regear your Freep for da moors then you're doing it wrong. Freeps have far more leeway in how to spec than Creeps, even with skill trees. Creeps have 3 builds, full health, survivability (this one being relatively new), full DPS, the latter 2 being mostly a joke.

 

Removing audacity would be great, worst idea evah.

 

Generally, IMO, Creeps got stronger within a group, but individual Freeps were generally stronger than individual Creeps, with some class exceptions. Now this wasn't because Creeps skills meshed within a group better than Freeps, quite the opposite. Freep skills mesh very well in PvE raiding and they mesh just as well in PvP raiding. The difference is Creeps have to group and learned to work well together because they had no other choice. This is engrained from when you were a greenie. Freeps don't neccessarily have to group, unless going against a well organized Creep group and from my experience on my server they rarely worked well together. The best Freep raids were the kins groups that PvE raided, they were use to working with each other and generally would wipe even the best Creep groups, unless severely outnumbered.

 

Regardless of whether creeps have typically held the short end of the stick the point is pvmp has never been given any serious attention by the devs.   Removing audacity would be good because it would lower the price of admission.  Then there would be more people doing pvmp and perhaps the devs would finally do something.  I'm not saying that they shouldn't do something in place of audacity, I"m only suggesting that the cost for gear and aud for creeps is an unnecessary roadblock.  The aud gear is actually pretty pathetic and is only good for aud.  Honestly, creeps should always be weaker than freeps and should always require grouping.  Freeps after all are the heroes of the game and from a lore perspective should have an advantage in pvp.  It's not that bad now but no class should be able to take on 3 or 4 people and live no matter how much of a noob those 4 people are.

 

Regardless of whether creeps have typically held the short end of the stick the point is pvmp has never been given any serious attention by the devs.   Removing audacity would be good because it would lower the price of admission.  Then there would be more people doing pvmp and perhaps the devs would finally do something.  I'm not saying that they shouldn't do something in place of audacity, I"m only suggesting that the cost for gear and aud for creeps is an unnecessary roadblock.  The aud gear is actually pretty pathetic and is only good for aud.  Honestly, creeps should always be weaker than freeps and should always require grouping.  Freeps after all are the heroes of the game and from a lore perspective should have an advantage in pvp.  It's not that bad now but no class should be able to take on 3 or 4 people and live no matter how much of a noob those 4 people are.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Regardless of whether creeps have typically held the short end of the stick the point is pvmp has never been given any serious attention by the devs.   Removing audacity would be good because it would lower the price of admission.  Then there would be more people doing pvmp and perhaps the devs would finally do something.  I'm not saying that they shouldn't do something in place of audacity, I"m only suggesting that the cost for gear and aud for creeps is an unnecessary roadblock.  The aud gear is actually pretty pathetic and is only good for aud.  Honestly, creeps should always be weaker than freeps and should always require grouping.  Freeps after all are the heroes of the game and from a lore perspective should have an advantage in pvp.  It's not that bad now but no class should be able to take on 3 or 4 people and live no matter how much of a noob those 4 people are.

 

PvP at least worked before Turbine started paying it attention. Then it just became a p2w-fest and killed it off entirely. It's all too far gone to save.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Regardless of whether creeps have typically held the short end of the stick the point is pvmp has never been given any serious attention by the devs.   Removing audacity would be good because it would lower the price of admission.  Then there would be more people doing pvmp and perhaps the devs would finally do something.  I'm not saying that they shouldn't do something in place of audacity, I"m only suggesting that the cost for gear and aud for creeps is an unnecessary roadblock.  The aud gear is actually pretty pathetic and is only good for aud.  Honestly, creeps should always be weaker than freeps and should always require grouping.  Freeps after all are the heroes of the game and from a lore perspective should have an advantage in pvp.  It's not that bad now but no class should be able to take on 3 or 4 people and live no matter how much of a noob those 4 people are.

I agree with the removal of audacity, it was just another turbine enforced grind, but I can't agree that Creeps should always be weaker than Freeps, especially before F2P. Creeps were paying a sub just like Freeps, why should they be second class citizens? I understand the logic and it would fit with the lore, but it's certainly unfair to anyone that choose to play Creep.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The original design didn't consider the possibility that anyone would pay their sub to play just part of the side game.

Exactly. The only reason I raided and levelled up and grinded best gear/virtues was because of PvP. That was my end-game. The rest was just the path to PvP. And the whole time Turbine just saw it as a side game, when to many others like me it was THE game.

Link to post
Share on other sites

As I've said before, the whole thing was unbalanced from the get-go, because freeps were able to take advantages from PvE into the PvMP environment.  If freeps were built in the same way that creeps were built - completely separate from PvE altogether - then I think that, even as a microcosm of play, it would be a better foundation.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If I could have ever changed one thing about LOTRO PVMP, it would have been restricting a player from creating a creep on the same server that he/she created a freep.

 

As for the OP, as many others have said, PVP brings out the inner moron in most everyone at some point, but the asshats truly come into their own there.  I saw pathetic cowards hailed as great leaders, outright fabrication of events in zone-chat to garner favor/respect/sympathy from others, hypocrisy of the highest order, and little consequences to one's actions for anyone.  I despised the unwritten rules people spouted on about because I saw them used on a regular basis to manipulate others rather than create some kind of chivalrous environment.

 

I enjoyed it more when I expected the absolute worst from others. Anything different was a recipe for disappointment.

 

Ultimately it was a no-win situation. Use the environment and skills at your disposal and you got labeled any number of things. Play by the 'rules' and watch others you are competing against NOT play by the rules.

 

I prefer the notion of PVP-by-Doro. Anything goes. I know Tolkien had Eomer dismount and fight Ugluk hand-to-hand, but the creeps should have been treated as vermin to be exterminated by freeps. Freeps should have been 'man flesh' to be hacked to pieces and eaten or flung to the crows.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If I could have ever changed one thing about LOTRO PVMP, it would have been restricting a player from creating a creep on the same server that he/she created a freep.

 

As for the OP, as many others have said, PVP brings out the inner moron in most everyone at some point, but the asshats truly come into their own there.  I saw pathetic cowards hailed as great leaders, outright fabrication of events in zone-chat to garner favor/respect/sympathy from others, hypocrisy of the highest order, and little consequences to one's actions for anyone.  I despised the unwritten rules people spouted on about because I saw them used on a regular basis to manipulate others rather than create some kind of chivalrous environment.

 

I enjoyed it more when I expected the absolute worst from others. Anything different was a recipe for disappointment.

 

Ultimately it was a no-win situation. Use the environment and skills at your disposal and you got labeled any number of things. Play by the 'rules' and watch others you are competing against NOT play by the rules.

 

I prefer the notion of PVP-by-Doro. Anything goes. I know Tolkien had Eomer dismount and fight Ugluk hand-to-hand, but the creeps should have been treated as vermin to be exterminated by freeps. Freeps should have been 'man flesh' to be hacked to pieces and eaten or flung to the crows.

I agree with the idea that it should be a free for all.  Too many times I have witnessed freeps standing around 1v1 circles getting ganked only to spout off about some unwritten gentlemen's agreement.  However, if they want to be idiots and feed creeps then by all means go ahead.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the idea that it should be a free for all.  Too many times I have witnessed freeps standing around 1v1 circles getting ganked only to spout off about some unwritten gentlemen's agreement.  However, if they want to be idiots and feed creeps then by all means go ahead.

 

If the "agreement" isn't agreed upon by everyone on the field, then it's null.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're gonna complain about getting your ass handed to you, don't travel to a PvP zone.

In an ideal world... that simply wasn't the case in the Moors.  Not on Landroval anyway. Perhaps the lack of 'mirrored classes' fed that to some degree.  Any champ that used a bubble in a duel was a target for ridicule.  A minstrel that self-healed? Captain that self-healed? Warden that used a shield stance? All worthy of the highest scorn. The ability to swap sides and enter the environment of the opposite side to add the ridicule made it all the worse.

 

Of course, PVP being PVP, if you did NOT use those overpowered (OP) skills, you still got accused of it. And if you didn't use them and died, you did so out of ignorance and got the L2P label.  

 

If other PVP games are that much worse than LOTRO, I shudder at what this forebodes for humanity.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have never understood why using all the skills your class has is seen as bad.

I would like to see a PVP system based on Rock Paper scissors. Classes would be placed into one of three types (or each classes has 3 stances) and each type is strong against one and weak against another. This could lead to some interesting battles where you have to decide how to balance your raid. To much of one type could make you to hard to defeat but get it wrong and you get wiped out easily. This would work best in battleground matches, where you have to pick your type before the match starts and could only change in once or twice during the whole match.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...