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Lotro PvPers...are they really that bad?


Amenhir
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What is the game direction that Stickeez wants to drive the development to (according to himself, and according to Snowlock)? Why others (e.g. Snowlock) think this is not a good direction?

The problem with Stickeez is, he won't tell you the truth when you ask this question.  He doesn't care about the direction of the game, he cares about changes made to the game so he can win at it.  He would rather pvp be abandoned by LOTRO entirely than see it evolve in a way that takes away his ezmode. All of his participation on the OF and on the PC is only to accomplish one thing:  Make him enjoy the game more for himself.  Everyone else can go hang.  I find that incredibly contemptible and immature.

My belief is that if we improve the moors for everyone, then everyone has more enjoyment of it.  So my outlook is strategic when it comes to pvmp.  I want a map full of objectives so we're not fighting in a single place, I want to play in as little lag as possible, I want to not be reliant on points to be telling me I'm having fun (points as a secondary objective are fine, but their accumulation should not be the main focus), and as a freep I want pvmp to be the place I come to test out the shinies I got in pve; so the two systems are fueling one another and growing both.  And as I creep I want pvmp to be the place I come when I'm tired of pve.

I've been a pvp leader of kin and pugs for from 2007 until 2013 and what I've learned is that with tactics, you can overcome all the little tweaky problems that whiny players like Stickeez are so worried about.  You just gotta have an imagination.  You won't win them all, but you'll still have fun. 

 

 

Edited by Snowlock
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The question was already asked. 'What is the game direction that Stickeez wants to drive the development to?' Your response was just less healing, nerfed burrow. Seems to me that if someone believes themselves to be a valuable member of a focus group, then they'd have more of an opinion than that.

It seems to me that this is the entire opposite of how someone in a focus group should behave.  I think it's better to have an open mind and an understanding of the current situation, because the feedback we are being asked for is based on future hypothetical situations.

Again, you don't seem interested whether my broad views are right/wrong, so why bother with the specifics?  Do you disagree that combat pacing and quality are paramount issues for someone interested in pvmp?

 

The problem with Stickeez is, he won't tell you the truth when you ask this question.  He doesn't care about the direction of the game, he cares about changes made to the game so he can win at it.

 

There I go being happy my own class got nerfed so I can win on it!

 

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It seems to me that this is the entire opposite of how someone in a focus group should behave.  I think it's better to have an open mind and an understanding of the current situation, because the feedback we are being asked for is based on future hypothetical situations.

Again, you don't seem interested whether my broad views are right/wrong, so why bother with the specifics?  Do you disagree that combat pacing and quality are paramount issues for someone interested in pvmp?

And yet you were asked a broad question outside of this focus group. A chance to show what you think in this vast arsenal that Turbine has at its disposal in this focus group. And the best you could do was nerf heals and burrow. What an insightful direction that is.

What I'm currently interested in is whether you actually have any other thoughts on PvP. I would hope so.

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There I go being happy my own class got nerfed so I can win on it!

 

People are always happy to fight one hand tied behind their back when they know they can still win.  It's a testament to how overpowered weavers were that you're not stomping your feet and screaming.  Nothing more.

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People are always happy to fight one hand tied behind their back when they know they can still win.  It's a testament to how overpowered weavers were that you're not stomping your feet and screaming.  Nothing more.

LOL Whatever Snowlock.  Never change!

You're confusing broad with bland. But I'll leave it. Nice to see the sort of firepower they're getting for PvP feedback.

If you think class balance and faction are bland topics, you probably aren't a PVPer.  That's ok, I don't particularly like MMO PVE so to each their own.  

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If you think class balance and faction are bland topics, you probably aren't a PVPer.  That's ok, I don't particularly like MMO PVE so to each their own.  

I'm saying what you've responded with has been bland. Not the topics, your response. Why? Because PvP was my main focus in LotRO and I could easily wax lyrical over what needed doing. And when given the chance to respond with where you want PvP to go, you gave a half-assed thing about classes needing balancing but was primarily concerned with nerfing healing and a burrow. That was it. That was all you could think of in all of your expertise as a 'PvPer'. It's like you want people to think you're just a slug farmer or something. I doubt you've actually got any opinions on PvP that are even worth listening to if that's the level you work at, which really makes me wonder at the sort of toddler level they must have as a focus group.

 

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LOL Whatever Snowlock.  Never change!

If you think class balance and faction are bland topics, you probably aren't a PVPer.  That's ok, I don't particularly like MMO PVE so to each their own.  

I'm a PvPer and your general statements don't say much. I think overall it would've been better for the councils if they'd stuck to their guns on "no returning members". As it is they seem to have gone back to the "choose people who agree with us", case in point.

Turbine has been talking about fixing lag in PvP for quite some time, and they've only made it worse. The magical new map has intensified the problem. I don't see it changing - and I certainly think it should've been delayed until they had new hardware to test it on to see if the lag actually improved. Otherwise they have a situation like, well, NOW. They also seem uniformly unable to come close to anything like class balance in PvP because they can't even get class balance in PVE. The trait trees made it worse, and the armour situation with essences makes it a joke. Sadly they haven't shown any interest in changing that direction. They have so few devs anymore though I'm not surprised. They can't even do the basics of what they need to do anymore.

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LOL Whatever Snowlock.  Never change! 

Translation:  I got nothin'.

 

I know buddy. 

Turbine has been talking about fixing lag in PvP for quite some time, and they've only made it worse.

But didn't someone say that due to the errors in the Ettenmoors and the lag those errors caused they had to make a new map, because lag?

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I'm saying what you've responded with has been bland. Not the topics, your response. Why? Because PvP was my main focus in LotRO and I could easily wax lyrical over what needed doing. And when given the chance to respond with where you want PvP to go, you gave a half-assed thing about classes needing balancing but was primarily concerned with nerfing healing and a burrow. That was it. That was all you could think of in all of your expertise as a 'PvPer'. It's like you want people to think you're just a slug farmer or something. I doubt you've actually got any opinions on PvP that are even worth listening to if that's the level you work at, which really makes me wonder at the sort of toddler level they must have as a focus group.

 

You'll forgive me I hope that being at work I would prefer a discussion than producing a monologue.  Perhaps I will provide something a bit more when I am free.

Were you by chance in the RoR beta?

The magical new map has intensified the problem.

Well, the land rush has certainly played a role in this - Brandy is still capping out frequently.  I think there are some graphics issues - as OSG is definitely more resource intensive to run than the 7 year old textures/geometry of the moors.  It's a problem for sure.  Load balancing via transfers, newer hardware will hopefully provide some improvement here.

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Well, the land rush has certainly played a role in this - Brandy is still capping out frequently.  I think there are some graphics issues - as OSG is definitely more resource intensive to run than the 7 year old textures/geometry of the moors.  It's a problem for sure.  Load balancing via transfers, newer hardware will hopefully provide some improvement here.

They are consolidating servers, which isn't going to ease the load. I don't expect Brandy to have an outflux of people, but if there was it would shift the problem to another server rather than solve it. Gladden has probably the 2nd largest PvP population and it too is very laggy - without Brandy's concentration. I foresee it getting worse, especially in a smaller map with such concentrated points of focus. Not well thought out. And if the newer hardware doesn't fix it, which I don't believe it will, what will be the excuse then? "Please stop going to PvP, you're overloading our abilities and hardware and we have proven that we can't handle it." I've waited too many times for promised fixes that either didn't come or didn't do what was promised. I've learned not to expect better. My time in the PC simply reemphasized that.

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They are consolidating servers, which isn't going to ease the load. I don't expect Brandy to have an outflux of people, but if there was it would shift the problem to another server rather than solve it. Gladden has probably the 2nd largest PvP population and it too is very laggy - without Brandy's concentration. I foresee it getting worse, especially in a smaller map with such concentrated points of focus. Not well thought out. And if the newer hardware doesn't fix it, which I don't believe it will, what will be the excuse then? "Please stop going to PvP, you're overloading our abilities and hardware and we have proven that we can't handle it." I've waited too many times for promised fixes that either didn't come or didn't do what was promised. I've learned not to expect better. My time in the PC simply reemphasized that.

I expect Brandy will have an outflow of people, due to it not being available for incoming transfer.  I know several tribes planning to make the jump.

On lag - there are definitely engine bottlenecks involved.  It will take engineering work.  You can say that IC was a mistake do to tying this sort of resource up, and I would not disagree with you.  Those resources are now focused on the data moves and new transfer functions is a necessity - getting these wrong would kill the game.

But they will need to address the lag as well, even if the hardware upgrade helps the engine issues will persist.

 

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I expect Brandy will have an outflow of people, due to it not being available for incoming transfer.  I know several tribes planning to make the jump.

On lag - there are definitely engine bottlenecks involved.  It will take engineering work.  You can say that IC was a mistake do to tying this sort of resource up, and I would not disagree with you.  Those resources are now focused on the data moves and new transfer functions is a necessity - getting these wrong would kill the game.

But they will need to address the lag as well, even if the hardware upgrade helps the engine issues will persist.

 

So essentially they gave us a nicely wrapped bag of shit without the resources to address the smell for months, if ever. And I have no faith that throwing all their resources will get the data and transfer issues done right. Most people who have seen this game go through changes expect them to get it wrong to at least a certain extent - so again, I expect it to be a major cluster. After all, one of the biggest issues is they're going to phase the transfers so some people are at a severe disadvantage to even get their names or housing. What moron thought that was a good idea?

 

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So essentially they gave us a nicely wrapped bag of shit without the resources to address the smell for months, if ever. And I have no faith that throwing all their resources will get the data and transfer issues done right. Most people who have seen this game go through changes expect them to get it wrong to at least a certain extent - so again, I expect it to be a major cluster. After all, one of the biggest issues is they're going to phase the transfers so some people are at a severe disadvantage to even get their names or housing. What moron thought that was a good idea?

 

Complete speculation on my part - but perhaps the phased part of the transfer is meant to avoid other potential problems.  Having mass failures due to a land rush during the transfer would be arguably worse than some stress over names and houses.

Will the transfers go smoothly and work?  We'll see soon enough.  I still enjoy the game, so I hope they do.

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So essentially they gave us a nicely wrapped bag of shit without the resources to address the smell for months, if ever. And I have no faith that throwing all their resources will get the data and transfer issues done right. Most people who have seen this game go through changes expect them to get it wrong to at least a certain extent - so again, I expect it to be a major cluster. After all, one of the biggest issues is they're going to phase the transfers so some people are at a severe disadvantage to even get their names or housing. What moron thought that was a good idea?

 

The phasis should have been done on a "per destination server" basis - so for example Gladden being the first one open accepting transfers which the Turbine team would monitor closely and have sufficient GMs on hand to deal with issues raised. If at any point Gladden starts to struggle performance-wise they then just pause the transfer process and no one is then put at any specific disadvantage.

Edited by Bango
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I expect a trainwreck

 

 

i'm not trying to be too pessimistic, but i think you may be right.

as spiteful mentioned in another thread...the new exec producer saying that the new servers "should" be able to handle the load is...well, scary.

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To be fair to Turbine, in the past I've been asked similar questions regarding a system would be up to it on go-live day and unless there was a way of guaranteeing that only x users would be online then I responded in the same way. It's impossible to give an absolute assurance if one cannot control how many concurrent users there are and what those users are doing at any given time. The issue with MMO engines and more than likely LOTRO's is that much of it relies on synchronous transactions and as such there's often little leeway when the system is under load. 

Let's just hope that the new infrastructure has the means in place to scale out to support increasing loads as and when they happen.

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while i agree somewhat with this...isn't it time to just...move on?

don't get me wrong, i don't undervalue the negative impact that the paizs and sapience had on the game and the community, but...they're gone.  i see folks--more on this forum than anywhere else--continue to bring their name up a lot.  as in, maybe a bit too much? i seriously doubt these people are giving their detractors a single thought in whatever line of employment they are currently doing.  

This, as bad as the P's and Sap were they didn't single handedly destroy the game. It was a group effort.  By this point they would be ungodly lucky to manage a smooth server merge.  The three musketeers have no ongoing impact on current/future efforts.  They may have set a base line but that's water under the bridge.

i'm not trying to be too pessimistic, but i think you may be right.

as spiteful mentioned in another thread...the new exec producer saying that the new servers "should" be able to handle the load is...well, scary.

Agreed since a Hware change didn't introduce the lag in U6, no reason to believe a Hware change will fix the lag now.

Edited by Bendin
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This, as bad as the P's and Sap were they didn't single handedly destroy the game. It was a group effort.  By this point they would be ungodly lucky to manage a smooth server merge.  The three musketeers have no ongoing impact on current/future efforts.  They may have set a base line but that's water under the bridge.

Agreed since a Hware change didn't introduce the lag in U6, no reason to believe a Hware change will fix the lag now.

No ongoing impact?  Their entire way of doing things has had a huge and long lasting impact.  Hell this forum alone has members that were impacted by Sapience and a few of them have gotten zero response from Frelorn regarding bogus bannings.  Trait trees are still a thing.  The whole "raiders and pvpers vs the world" is still a thing.  Sap's final fuck you on his way out had a very real and lasting impact.  It drove a lot of players away from the game, it divided an already fractured player base.  Those that have remained playing the game agreed to swallow the pill but Paiz drove the game straight off a cliff with that HD bullshit.  That had a very real and lasting impact.

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No ongoing impact?  Their entire way of doing things has had a huge and long lasting impact.  

True story.  If turbine really wants to reconnect with the community they need to give a general amnesty to all players who were banned for infractions except for the really egregious stuff (pornography, racist shit, etc) and apologize via producer's letter.  They'll never do it because the new team wants us to believe they aren't the same as the old team, but the reality is at the end of the day, it was "Turbine" that did what they did, not "Sapience", or "Celestrata" or "Paiz" etc. 

If Vy really wants to reconnect with the community, and it does seem like she wants that to happen, she's gotta do the mea culpa on behalf of Turbine too.

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At least you assumed the position for your meet and greet with sapience.

have +rep, good sir!

True story.  If turbine really wants to reconnect with the community they need to give a general amnesty to all players who were banned for infractions except for the really egregious stuff (pornography, racist shit, etc) and apologize via producer's letter.  They'll never do it because the new team wants us to believe they aren't the same as the old team, but the reality is at the end of the day, it was "Turbine" that did what they did, not "Sapience", or "Celestrata" or "Paiz" etc. 

If Vy really wants to reconnect with the community, and it does seem like she wants that to happen, she's gotta do the mea culpa on behalf of Turbine too.

Management admit they got something wrong? Never!

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