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Lotro PvPers...are they really that bad?


Amenhir
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No ongoing impact?  Their entire way of doing things has had a huge and long lasting impact.  Hell this forum alone has members that were impacted by Sapience and a few of them have gotten zero response from Frelorn regarding bogus bannings.  Trait trees are still a thing.  The whole "raiders and pvpers vs the world" is still a thing.  Sap's final fuck you on his way out had a very real and lasting impact.  It drove a lot of players away from the game, it divided an already fractured player base.  Those that have remained playing the game agreed to swallow the pill but Paiz drove the game straight off a cliff with that HD bullshit.  That had a very real and lasting impact.

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No ongoing impact?  Their entire way of doing things has had a huge and long lasting impact.  Hell this forum alone has members that were impacted by Sapience and a few of them have gotten zero response from Frelorn regarding bogus bannings.  Trait trees are still a thing.  The whole "raiders and pvpers vs the world" is still a thing.  Sap's final fuck you on his way out had a very real and lasting impact.  It drove a lot of players away from the game, it divided an already fractured player base.  Those that have remained playing the game agreed to swallow the pill but Paiz drove the game straight off a cliff with that HD bullshit.  That had a very real and lasting impact.

All true and none of it done in a vacuum.  Those three didn't single handedly do anything(well maybe Sap, but he's minor) all done with the consent/aide/tacit permission of those both above and below them.  Many of those same people are still there = unlikely to improve even with the three amigos gone, or perhaps never even existed.

 

 

EDIT they were only as bad as they were allowed to be.   This is an example of a corporate philosophy that goes beyond the individuals in question.  A well run company would have had them box thier stuff a lot sooner.  But Turbine is what it is, and the emperor always wears clothes even when he feels the draft.  They were merely the face of Turbine hubris, insularity, ignorance, and stupidity; they were not the cause.  Turbine was quite capable of shooting it's face and it's player base for no good reason (enter SOM rad, LI dev tantrums ect.) long before them.  Turbine continues to perfect the art today after they are gone.

Edited by Bendin
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Their behaviour certainly reflected their views towards their customers - which to say the least was detached from what it should have been. Overall it's an excellent example of an organisation that's obsessed with the goings on inside the company and not about what it is doing with its customers. So the question is the extent to which that culture & behaviours has changed as a result of the departure of both Paizs and of course the failure of IC. Guess what we need is another insider who's been around there recently to spill the beans.

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Their behaviour certainly reflected their views towards their customers - which to say the least was detached from what it should have been. Overall it's an excellent example of an organisation that's obsessed with the goings on inside the company and not about what it is doing with its customers. So the question is the extent to which that culture & behaviours has changed as a result of the departure of both Paizs and of course the failure of IC. Guess what we need is another insider who's been around there recently to spill the beans.

the culture change being made is to throw a bunch of money at mobile gaming.  So we are back to the beginning of IC yet again.  Another bad idea getting the funds.

True story.  If turbine really wants to reconnect with the community they need to give a general amnesty to all players who were banned for infractions except for the really egregious stuff (pornography, racist shit, etc) and apologize via producer's letter.  They'll never do it because the new team wants us to believe they aren't the same as the old team, but the reality is at the end of the day, it was "Turbine" that did what they did, not "Sapience", or "Celestrata" or "Paiz" etc. 

If Vy really wants to reconnect with the community, and it does seem like she wants that to happen, she's gotta do the mea culpa on behalf of Turbine too.

They don't have to apologize for banning me.  Making a quality game would do the job.  They won't do that.  

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the culture change being made is to throw a bunch of money at mobile gaming.  So we are back to the beginning of IC yet again.  Another bad idea getting the funds.

They don't have to apologize for banning me.  Making a quality game would do the job.  They won't do that.  

I really don't think they can any more.  The devs are gone, the resources are gone.  An apology would reduce the level of antagonism I think.

Edited by Snowlock
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I really don't think they can any more.  The devs are gone, the resources are gone.  An apology would reduce the level of antagonism I think.

No offence but to what point?  If resources, dev capability ect. are gone (iagree btw); then why would Turbine issue an apology for anything unless that's gonna = revenue?  It would be one thing if there was an avenue to improvement.  In that case an apology could I suppose draw back customers.  However if it's just more of the same, an apology seems a bit empty to me. Neither would it likely bring back old or new custom.  An apology by itself will draw in no one, nor likely keep or loose whoever is still playing.  They will likely continue to play even if Turbine remains un-apologetic.<----Barring some new un-related disaster.

 

EDIT also an apology generally means you don't ever again intend to do whatever your apologizing for.   And unless their was some massive culture shift in the company, I feel habits/behaviors are un-likely to change very much.

Edited by Bendin
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No offence but to what point?  If resources, dev capability ect. are gone (iagree btw); then why would Turbine issue an apology for anything unless that's gonna = revenue?  It would be one thing if there was an avenue to improvement.  In that case an apology could I suppose draw back customers.  However if it's just more of the same, an apology seems a bit empty to me. Neither would it likely bring back old or new custom.  An apology by itself will draw in no one, nor likely keep or loose whoever is still playing.  They will likely continue to play even if Turbine remains un-apologetic.<----Barring some new un-related disaster.

 

EDIT also an apology generally means you don't ever again intend to do whatever your apologizing for.   And unless their was some massive culture shift in the company, I feel habits/behaviors are un-likely to change very much.

There's a sizeable amount of players that are just flat out bitter about how this has all gone down.  Take away the bitterness and then the situation feels more like a "it is what it is" sort of deal, rather than "you're getting what you deserve".  It also is making their apologists apologize by default.  If Turbine admits to being wrong, then those that supported them have to be wrong too, and that'll take them, who probably generate as much animosity as Turbine itself, either down a few pegs or out of the equation entirely.  I never meant to say it would cause players to come back, I said it would reconnect Turbine with it's community and put an end to the adversarial nature between the two.

I do agree that habits/behaviors are unlikely to change.  I'm just saying what needs to happen in my view, not what is going to happen.  We're going to see Minas Tirith, I'm hoping we see Mordor.  And then I think it's Maintenance Mode.

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It was Turbine's business decisions that made it not grow on pace with WOW.  Not that WOW was some magic entity that grew through magical magics beyond compare.

WoW continuously improved as a game each year (not counting easy of raids, etc). I remember playing WoW and Lotro at the same time before F2P. Lotro was really nice in ways, but WoW was overall a better gameplay experience. In WoW: more to do, more ways to play (low level PvP, dungeon finder), better loot and itemization, better AH, better combat, better storage (large bags), etc. It just was a better experience except maybe for the landscape and story.

But Blizzard kept investing in WoW and making it a better game. Little quality of life things got better each year in WoW, like the tabard/reputation systems as a benefit to new toons. I watched Turbine NOT make Lotro a better game. Improvements came slowly, and the game got worse with things like the store. If Turbine had hired good developers and put money into improving the game, then they could have had more players. Unless the game was going to close, they should have stayed a subscription game and put all the money they spent on the store into actually improving the game. But instead they chased profits and the #1 goal was income in the store. They lost making the game really good so people would subscribe as a main goal. It was no longer: make a great game so people would subscribe and then they would have more money. And Lotro really suffered because they lost the motivation to make the best game possible (and gained the motivation to make players spend as much in the store as possible). Things like the Dragoich bug and LIs would never have stayed in such bad states in an MMO like WoW. Blizzard is always looking at game problems and trying to improve them. We got a really second hand MMO with Lotro mainly because Turbine would not spend the money on it to keep it in good shape and fix things like LIs that were awful. It is no wonder so many people left the game. And all of the expansions after F2P were laughable compared to WoW's or Rifts. Lotro players somehow accepted small expansions with crappy instance and raids.

Sorry to go off, but Turbine basically ruined a great MMO. And they have the setting (LOTR) that most deserves to be done right as an MMO. If Lotro had real money invested in it, and improved each year in many small ways like WoW, it would still be a great MMO.

Lastly, I hated playing Lotro after F2P because I constantly knew if I pulled out my credit card I would pay to take away some grind and make the game more enjoyable. There was an insidious pressure to use the store to make playing more fun.  IMO that is the absolute worst way to do a F2P/store MMO. I so much prefer playing  an MMO that doesn't have a grind that I can shop away, and constant popups reminding me of this. Just that nagging idea that I could have more fun spending $10 totally took out the fun of the game for me. I know some people did not mind the store and store popups.

________________________________

About the PC, some council members seem great, but some of them seem to have convinced themselves of how important the council is and how Turbine is doing a good job and good things are coming for Lotro just around the corner. They seem to want to think this thing they are a part of is something very useful and good, and that Turbine is some benevolent group driven only by a desire to make Lotro better. They can't really see that Turbine is sometimes motivated by money at the expense of making a better game. A lot of these efforts, like the new PvP map, are really just attempts to spend just a little money in development in ways that will keep some players around and happy. Turbine keeps using the idea of these great things coming to keep players in the game (big battles, major housing update, new PvP map, etc). And it works, players get excited and stay interested in the game for a while - until they see what actually is added to the game.

It's always: hype up a new idea, get players excited, then release something crappy and far worse than anyone would expect (MC, BB, housing update, new instances, etc). It is pretty hard to think of anything new that they have introduced that is done really well. Which is the exact opposite of WoW. It is very easy to think of things added to WoW that are really cool and done well (like Timeless Isle). Players may not like how WoW has changed, and big ideas might have some flaws (like Ashran), but they always spend a lot in development and introduce a full, well made feature to the game. It's so easy to think of things in Lotro that were not made well and didn't work (big battles, mounted combat, group finder, etc.).

At this point we can't really expect Turbine to spend much money on Lotro, but if they spent enough money they could really improve PvMP. They could have staff spend the time to make intelligent small changes to improve PvMP, they could spend serious money to fix the code to get rid of the lag as much as possible, they could spend the money and staff time to put out a really good new PvMP map. I haven't played the new map, but I always expected some small effort that is good intentioned but not very well done - due to lack of talent, money and staff time put into it. It is hard to believe they could actually make a good PvMP experience at this point in Lotro - especially given all the lag problems in the game. There is no way they will do much to fix the lag - the new map is just adding a new landscape.

 

 

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His "favorite post" from a some other poster was titled "How to dick punch turbine".  But this one guy jokingly titles a thread with "flame on" and "OMG he's just here to make trouble!"

This quote just shows your lack of knowledge about those two posters. The StormKing is one of the funniest posters here and on the other forums (from way back), and he gets a lot of respect from his posts about the PC and the game. His posts on the Official Forum were the favorite of many, many people.

Damojo was someone who was very argumentative and rude. He came here, insulted a lot of people without trying to really have discussions, and then quickly quit. But he was a huge defender of Turbine (he came to Lotro very late) and it's no wonder he did not like what people said here about the company.

This is idioticly wrong (but I think you just don't know the whole story): "OMG he's just here to make trouble!"
No one said that. We said Damojo was here to make trouble after we saw what he did and said here. He came, made trouble, got into arguments and insulted people, and showed no real interest in discussion or offering respect to anyone here. He insulted a lot of people on the other forums too during the height of Sapience's abuse of power and efforts to divide people on the forums.

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Very well worded long post and most of it dead on.  I too played both games at the same time.  I chose Lotro because of my experiences in Moria.  I felt the team was trying to head in the right direction so I supported them.  Shame on me I guess lol.  

I never hated Lotro after F2P but ROI was an eye opener.  Leaving draigoch in its current state for about 4 years didn't impress me.  Neither did the 3 times a week he bugged on us.  I felt ToO made up for it.  But of course that where it ended.  

Never sure who to blame WB or Turbine.  I still think they gave up making those improvements to make IC.  And now the mobile division is stealing the resources.  God bless ya if you're still playing Lotro today.  I don't consider it a complete game since what they gave you previously always amounts to more.

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I never hated Lotro after F2P but ROI was an eye opener.  Leaving draigoch in its current state for about 4 years didn't impress me.  Neither did the 3 times a week he bugged on us.  I felt ToO made up for it.  But of course that where it ended.  

My impression was that that last SOM era update, "In Their Absence" was largely the last hurrah of the "classic" dev team, the ones from pre-launch through SOA, MoM & SoM.  Then they shifted to IC and the the 2nd tier devs took over LOTRO.  ROI probably had pieces of the original team too, (like JWBarry who half-assed us through ToO), but that original team seemed largely absent.  Ha, in their absence the game was never the same.

Edited by Snowlock
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My impression was that that last SOM era update, "In Their Absence" was largely the last hurrah of the "classic" dev team, the ones from pre-launch through SOA, MoM & SoM.  Then they shifted to IC and the the 2nd tier devs took over LOTRO.  ROI probably had pieces of the original team too, (like JWBarry who half-assed us through ToO), but that original team seemed largely absent.  Ha, in their absence the game was never the same.

JWBarry was involved in the design of Big Battles.

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meh...well, i guess it's good to know who to blame for that hot mess.

A criticism I would level at Turbine (and a lot of studios) is the tendency to get caught up in how "neat" and smart a new system is, without making sure it is fun first and foremost.  Losing sight of that early in the process tends to not end well.

BBs and also LIs would fall into this for me.

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A criticism I would level at Turbine (and a lot of studios) is the tendency to get caught up in how "neat" and smart a new system is, without making sure it is fun first and foremost.  Losing sight of that early in the process tends to not end well.

BBs and also LIs would fall into this for me.

agreed.  the overall concept of big battles might have been a good idea.  but they failed at the execution...miserably.  too many bugs that went unfixed for far too long.

worse, they tried to save face by promoting pelargir as an "offensive" big battle after all the backlash, but even that instance was 95% defensive.  they should have just made pelargir an offensive skirmish and been done with it.

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I wouldnt have minded the Big Battles so much if they had come alongside a normal IC, but the buggy-ness of them, and above all the fact that they were the only end-game we got was what pissed me off.

The skill trees are a much bigger fail in my book.

I probably would have still minded, simply because they already had things like Big Battles. They had Skirmishes, that were already pretty fleshed out, let you play your class like normal AND gave you a secondary option to customise (the soldier). Some didn't like them, but the group size option was always a good idea to cater to raiders, duoers and soloers.

They could have just made a few Skirmishes around the Hornburg, and an IC+raid in the Paths of the Dead. The introduction of yet another gimmick to ignore it later down the line was just a waste of time and resources.

And agreed on the skill trees. It finally killed the game for me.

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It's true that the whole HD could've been made with skirmishes instead. We should have gotten a few skirmishes with every xpac, it's such a simple system (instance a random map area, throw in some mobs and lieutenants and it's done) that it still amazes me that they didn't use it to pump out large amounts of content.

If Helms Deep (the xpac) had been done correctly, we would have gotten BB's, IC and a couple new skirmishes.

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I probably would have still minded, simply because they already had things like Big Battles. They had Skirmishes, that were already pretty fleshed out, let you play your class like normal AND gave you a secondary option to customise (the soldier). Some didn't like them, but the group size option was always a good idea to cater to raiders, duoers and soloers.

They could have just made a few Skirmishes around the Hornburg, and an IC+raid in the Paths of the Dead. The introduction of yet another gimmick to ignore it later down the line was just a waste of time and resources.

And agreed on the skill trees. It finally killed the game for me.

I was cautiously (very very cautiously) optimistic for Big Battles because while I didn't think we should be participating directly in the battle of Helm's Deep, if were going to, I really didn't think skirms or even a traditional IC could do it justice.  So when we were told this system would allow the devs to support larger scale fights than we're used to, I was able to at least not be completely gutted by the news of no IC.  And then I stood on the parapet and watched five or six green level mobs go right past me to attack an npc and...  well I don't know if there's a single word for disgustedly bored, but that's what I was.

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I was cautiously (very very cautiously) optimistic for Big Battles because while I didn't think we should be participating directly in the battle of Helm's Deep, if were going to, I really didn't think skirms or even a traditional IC could do it justice.  So when we were told this system would allow the devs to support larger scale fights than we're used to, I was able to at least not be completely gutted by the news of no IC.  And then I stood on the parapet and watched five or six green level mobs go right past me to attack an npc and...  well I don't know if there's a single word for disgustedly bored, but that's what I was.

Oh exactly. They overhyped it. All they did was make an instance that took away the very point of classes and then stuck the same 'sprite spam' tech they used on that cliff overlooking Wulf's Cleft in Dunland. Then cue the usual small waves of mobs but, as you say, mobs that ignore you and just run to whatever target they felt like.

I was pessimistic when they first announced them. But when I managed to just sit in AFK and complete a Big Battle on 'silver', it just reinforced the apathy that class trees already gave me. I never will understand how a company can be so completely out of touch and yet simultaneously know exactly what not to do in the game they're trying to make money from.

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Doro and I are in complete agreement on this one.  I rolled a guardian and warden to tank instances because I happen to like tanking.  Some people like to heal so they roll minis.  Some people like to Dps so they roll a hunter or champ.  Some like a support role so they roll cappies or lm's.  To see all 4 of these roles eliminated by replacing the players with npc's was maddening

  I saw the epic battles as no more than a running around click fest.  This was after 10 questing levels of click on this, clean up that carry this barrell 350 metersmeters 6 times.

I'm sure if JW had a choice he'd leave it off his resume.  The lack of an in depth tutorial also hurt.  Instances don't need tutorials because it is core game mechanics you are using for a minimum of 20 levels.

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Doro and I are in complete agreement on this one.  I rolled a guardian and warden to tank instances because I happen to like tanking.  Some people like to heal so they roll minis.  Some people like to Dps so they roll a hunter or champ.  Some like a support role so they roll cappies or lm's.  To see all 4 of these roles eliminated by replacing the players with npc's was maddening

  I saw the epic battles as no more than a running around click fest.  This was after 10 questing levels of click on this, clean up that carry this barrell 350 metersmeters 6 times.

I'm sure if JW had a choice he'd leave it off his resume.  The lack of an in depth tutorial also hurt.  Instances don't need tutorials because it is core game mechanics you are using for a minimum of 20 levels.

Yea as a  guard I spent about 10 minutes on BR HD beta, then un-installed. 

As far as JW, let me put my tin foil hat on....ok.  I don't generally think JW is a moron, however he prob should have left a sinking ship before this.  I think BB's EB's whatever the f*** you want to call them were inevitable in how they turned out no matter who developed them.  I agree that already having skirm tech would have made more sense, however the revamp precluded using the system for HD.  Skirms used those pesky skill bloated hard to remember I'm simple class mechanics to one degree or another.  Using a revamped character in a skirm just shows in stark contrast just how bad revamps were.  With BB's class mechanics of any type are removed to help "mask" we broke your toon you spent <insert timeframe/emotional investment here> building.  It's a cover your ass system nothing more nothing less.

 

  It was meant with malice aforethought to NOT use character abilities while also meant to be sole end game to attempt to make people not notice their "new" characters.

Edited by Bendin
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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm only part of the way through the thread but it's been a very enlightening yet sad experience. I wanted to say thanks to Aylwen for all the insight as well as players for asking the questions I've often wondered about.  Aylwen's posts answered and confirmed many questions and beliefs I had, especially with pvmp. It's unfortunate that so many people have been laid off from Turbine over the years. There were a few names I remembered from years ago and often wondered what happened to them. Now I know.

The game will come to an end eventually (2017 perhaps?), and it will be difficult to say goodbye to my creeps and to many friends when the time comes, but there will be a lot of great memories that wouldn't have been possible without the employees who created and tested the game. Might as well enjoy it while it lasts.

I'm not sure how to get rid of the bold? that is appearing in the top paragraph. It's not bold when I edit.

Edited by dwarf
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