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It is inevitable.

Same as cash transactions have decreased over the last 40 years to the point we are today and will, eventually, be phased out completely.

One issue that hasn't been raised in opposition yet is the sanctity of the anonymous vote. With an electronic system there would have to be means to verify the voting transaction and this would necessitate the entire voting record to be accessible. Some means would also need to be developed to ensure that aspect of security is also protected. There are obstacles but, hey, we went to the moon! :P

​It is not inevitable. It is an administrative decision that concern one administrative action taken once every X years/months.   It is not i.e. manufacturing or communication technology that has to compete with other newer technologies on open market.

"Electronic voting is inevitable" is bullshit that was repeated so many times that people started to believe in it.

Edited by drul

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​1. the first part sounds almost like a justification for slavery.  and i like how treat slavery as merely an aside...

 

​As Almagnus pointed out, the War Between the States wasn't solely about slavery, it would depend on who you ask and since the victors write the history it became solely about slavery. The average southerner, which made up the bulk of the fighting force, who fought and died for The Confederacy didn't own slaves and never would. Slaves were very expensive, only rich landowners could afford them. This average southerner was fighting for states rights against what they thought of as a an over reaching Federal government. Sound familiar?

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Electronic voting would be a good idea if the following conditions would be met:

- It is easy to do
- It is available to everyone
- It is anonymous
- It can't be hacked

I'm afraid not all those conditions can be met.

And then you also have the 2nd issue: The questions asked should be good, not a populistuic question or bad for an easy to abuse minority.

So a question should be more like: Should we raise taxes with 2% or decrease state pensions ánd decrease health care funding. Because if you only ask "should we raise taxes" everybody votes no.

 

The big advantage (though it's also the big weakness) of the dutch system is that compromises should be made, so chances are lower small groups are badly impacted by decisions. And another big system from a representative democracy that a small, better educated group, can make better decisions then a complete population. In theory politicians know better the (dis)advantages of certain decisions...

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Until France is willing to do something at their end the problems in Calais and the Channel Tunnel will only get worse.  The French dont want to do anything as they can just let them into the UK and it is not their problem.

Another problem is what is happening in the Med.  Many people are fleeing countries like Lybia where there are massive problem, many cause by us bombing the place and then walking away creating power vacuums, and they are also looking over their shoulders at ISIS.  They are getting into Italy but the Italians are not doing anything to keep them there till it is established that they are allowed to be there. They left them go and thanks to the Schengen Convention, they can move freely throughout the EU as there are no boarder controls till they try to get into the UK.

This is a problem of our own making and one that will take all of the EU working together to fix.

​Yup. While Europe is too busy caring about immigrant safety over actually stopping them, it will just get worse. I'm surprised they haven't just made a tunnel between Gibraltar and Ceuta, just to help immigrants cross the Mediterranean.

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Electronic voting would be a good idea if the following conditions would be met:

- It is easy to do
- It is available to everyone
- It is anonymous
- It can't be hacked

I'm afraid not all those conditions can be met.

And then you also have the 2nd issue: The questions asked should be good, not a populistuic question or bad for an easy to abuse minority.

So a question should be more like: Should we raise taxes with 2% or decrease state pensions ánd decrease health care funding. Because if you only ask "should we raise taxes" everybody votes no.

 

The big advantage (though it's also the big weakness) of the dutch system is that compromises should be made, so chances are lower small groups are badly impacted by decisions. And another big system from a representative democracy that a small, better educated group, can make better decisions then a complete population. In theory politicians know better the (dis)advantages of certain decisions...

​All good points.

As for your point about the better educated group (politicians) making decisions for the masses I disagree. Taken one step further and you can see where an unelected supreme court makes the decisions. Taken another step further and you have dictatorship. 

One example here in Canada is abortion law. There is essentially no federal abortion law in Canada. There was a case where the supreme court refuses to enforce existing law and no federal party has the will to address the issue leaving Canada in an effectively lawless state concerning abortion.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada

There are advantages / disadvantages to every form of government but I prefer direct democracy via referenda. Sure I would love to have some sort of testing criteria to ensure each voter had an understanding of each issue before becoming eligible to vote on that issue but even without such testing I prefer to have each voice counted.

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​Yup. While Europe is too busy caring about immigrant safety over actually stopping them, it will just get worse. I'm surprised they haven't just made a tunnel between Gibraltar and Ceuta, just to help immigrants cross the Mediterranean.

​Politicians can't decide what to do.

They want to appear warm and fuzzy without actually being warm and fuzzy. Any incident that results in death or injury to migrants is going to be jumped on by the media and politicians are heading for the foxholes. Abuse of the system by migrants that make it ashore gets the general public upset at the tax dollar waste and, once again, the politicians are heading for the foxholes. So politicians talk volumes but seek the comfortable invisibility of inaction.

Immigration in Canada is a joke... completely broken and trying to do anything requires years and an entire process of appeals. There are immigrant lawyers who specialize in helping people play the system and are paid, you guessed it, by the government.

The vast majority of immigrants who follow the process become good Canadians but the ones who try to play the system... well this is the "rage thread".

(speaking from scant knowledge of the Australian system here) I believe Australia has a system that seems to work. They prevent migrants from actually reaching Australian shores and have a detainment facility outside their borders. I suspect the media and SJW's hate it but it is having the desired result to the point where migrant ships aren't looking to Australia as their destination any more.

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They are getting into Italy but the Italians are not doing anything to keep them there till it is established that they are allowed to be there. They left them go and thanks to the Schengen Convention, they can move freely throughout the EU as there are no boarder controls till they try to get into the UK.

​This is a bit far from reality. To say the least, an immigrant doesn't automatically receive some Schengen or EU rights just because he happens to enter such a country. That's like expecting a tourist to get a citizenship upon visiting another country for a holiday. The fact that you can move freely because there is no border control is very far from being able to start your new life just anywhere you want. If you stay off the grid then it's possible, but this is very difficult and those dudes are a minority, plus it's not exactly a normal life.

What happens to the majority? Funny story. The Western developed EU countries --these pillars of democracy and human rights-- turn out to be very touchy if immigrants problems are created somewhere else, but they themselves would rather not deal with such an inconvenience. They only love to advise others what to do with their minority problems. The countries at the edge of the EU are, naturally, newer members and also less developed. On top of that, they face the strongest gradient of the immigrant waves. For example, soon after the recent Syrian party turned into a proper spaghetti mess, within a couple of months the population of the city I'm from (Sofia) increased in pop with nearly 10% after ~200k refugees entered the country, running away from their very homes. This is not about building walls, fences and machine gun nests at the border - you are not allowed to stop it this way; you simply have to take those people. And it's the right thing to do, as far as I can have an opinion on the matter. Despite the enormous stress this causes to an already weak economy, not to mention social factors like increasing friction between this new group and the local, existing layers in society.

The example above is rather mild. There are areas in Italy where the entirety of the population is immigrants.

What are all these foreign folks doing? Naturally, they want to disperse towards the inside of the EU or just elsewhere. First, at their entry point they are not in the best possible country economically, and second - the high concentration of immigrants makes it impossible for any of them to form a normal life. This mass of people is not an integrate-able part of society at that stage, it is just a huge refugee camp without even proper living conditions. Only after a 'dilution effect' they can move forward with their lives. Of course they'll go to Germany, France and the UK... but there's a catch. Those countries return 75-85% of the illegal immigrants back. And there is a catch to the catch - the returning is not to the native point, but to the entry point. Because sending them back to a war zone is violating human rights, but sending them back to Italy isn't. It's an Italian problem now, case closed. Thus receiving human waves from all sides, the Italians threatened to issue an "EU pass" to all immigrants, and the other countries won't have a legal reason to kick them back afterwards. To this I say - more power to Italy! :) Twisting arms can go both ways.

Apparently France is OK to take care of you only if you're from the former N.African colonies, and the UK - if you're from Hindustan or the neighborhood. Needless to say, Germany is already the smaller Turkey. The diasporas in these countries are large enough, every newcomer goes there directly to his 'uncle' and becomes a de facto immigrant with point of entry - the final destination. His relatives are welcoming him in the family business and he gets a flying start in his new life. Good luck to him! He is not a miserable refugee in a quickly built slum reminding of a freaking death camp - not by design, but by necessity. It is this kind of immigrant the overly civilized western liberties are sorta afraid from. But it's OK for others to have them. They'll be carefully advised with the appropriate, not overly hypocritical EU directives. And I don't blame them - I'd probably do the same in their position. Nobody likes dirty newcomers, it's just that some are not admitting it and are playing humanitarians (but only from aside).

[Sorry for the wall of text.]

tl;dr: It's hard to point a finger and invoke guilt in the immigrant issues. But if you insist - blame those who start wars, maintain wars, pay for wars, and have people going through horrors so they have no other choice but to abandon their own homes.

Edited by Danchir

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​This is a bit far from reality. To say the least, an immigrant doesn't automatically receive some Schengen or EU rights just because he happens to enter such a country. That's like expecting a tourist to get a citizenship upon visiting another country for a holiday. The fact that you can move freely because there is no border control is very far from being able to start your new life just anywhere you want. If you stay off the grid then it's possible, but this is very difficult and those dudes are a minority, plus it's not exactly a normal life.

 

​Once you are in any EU country out with the UK you can move freely from country to country and go where you want.  Many of these immigrants are heading to the UK as they think they will get everything they need to stay here and live a comfy life.  When they get denied entry they claim asylum knowing that they must get a hearing.  Many of them do a runner as soon as they can and try to stay in the UK.  

When it comes to asylum you are meant to claim it in the first safe country you come to.  Those that have travelled through Europe just to get to the UK should be denied asylum unless they can prove why the UK is the safe place for them and not France or Italy or any other country they have passed through.

I accept that the UK should take its fair share of those that are fleeing northern Africa since we help to cause many of the problems there, but other countries seem happy to let them go knowing that many will head to the UK, this is especially true of the French

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I don't see any contradiction to what I said, cossie. It is clear why the UK returns those people and this is not surprising or illegal. But the situation is complex because it's mostly not Italy's fault in the first place, yet Italy is taking the bigger hit. Apparently something smarter has to be done, because throwing masses of people at each other in Europe is not solving it and is not the fashion since WWII (and even then it was mostly a Russian pattern).

The French are naturally sensitive to spikes in N.African immigrant population because these are their main 'minority'. If they let them go through this doesn't increase their numbers in the UK much because they are returned in bulk. It causes some shit stirring, some paperwork and money spending for sure, but the vast majority are sent back. None of the big W.European countries that are the primary desired destinations for those 'political' immigrants take anything close to a serious hit. So take it as a friendly, back-and-forth juggle of humans between your two countries, safely keeping them in some "EU limbo" and thus not an imminent problem that requires long term solution.

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I'm not particularly update to date on this topic, but what have we been doing in North Africa that's caused this? I know a lot of immigrants seem to claim they're fleeing from danger, and I've heard people say that we caused it in the first place, but I literally have no idea what we've actually done.

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I'm not particularly update to date on this topic, but what have we been doing in North Africa that's caused this? I know a lot of immigrants seem to claim they're fleeing from danger, and I've heard people say that we caused it in the first place, but I literally have no idea what we've actually done.

​A lot of it stems from what we did in Libya.  We helped to take out Gadaffi but left the factions to fight it out for control.  Christians are now being persecuted by the likes of Boko Haram spreading further north as they try to take advantage of this power vacuum and ISIS are also trying to get a foothold there.

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It appears the EU has made a decision to relocate 40000 migrates over the next 2 years.  No quotas have been set for any country.

​Meanwhile ... In germany: http://www.europeanguardian.com/86-uncategorised/culture/402-bavarian-school-advices-pupils-to-dress-sharia-conform

"The school chairman of a small Bavarian town, inundated by Muslim asylum tourists, advised female pupils to dress Sharia compliant. Measure intended to ‘avoid misunderstandings’. After heavy backfire, the school backpedaled."

Awesome, not only is sexual harassement now considered a "misunderstanding" and 100% the womans fault for not dressing properly, but instead of siding with their students their headmasters only has this to say:

“Direct gaping/staring or photographing should be avoided, please respect their human dignity. Condescending or racist remarks cannot be tolerated in any way.”

 

Thank you sir, may I have another, sir?

Edited by Frosty

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​Meanwhile ... In germany: http://www.europeanguardian.com/86-uncategorised/culture/402-bavarian-school-advices-pupils-to-dress-sharia-conform

"The school chairman of a small Bavarian town, inundated by Muslim asylum tourists, advised female pupils to dress Sharia compliant. Measure intended to ‘avoid misunderstandings’. After heavy backfire, the school backpedaled."

Awesome, not only is sexual harassement now considered a "misunderstanding" and 100% the womans fault for not dressing properly, but instead of siding with their students their headmasters only has this to say:

“Direct gaping/staring or photographing should be avoided, please respect their human dignity. Condescending or racist remarks cannot be tolerated in any way.”

 

Thank you sir, may I have another, sir?

wtf_is_that_martin_freeman.gif

It's like they WANT to be stepped on.

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@Immigrants problem

 

Whole problem arise from politics model that can be described as "it's okay that birth-rate is small, we'll just import workforce from other countries". 

That can work for ruling administration and big business, but it certainly fucks up rest of the society/population.

Edited by drul

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Today's rage is dedicated to this fucker:

706436main_20121114-304-193blend_m6-orig

That's right. For much of the year, he's nothing more than a glorified light bulb. A luminescent bastard with a sadistic desire to burn the pale.

But now it's beyond the joke. I feel like a Jew in goddamn Auschwitz. I feel like somebody's swapped my country for Australia. If people were to ask for a steak medium rare, they'd have to put ice cubes on it. If there were temperatures so high that they couldn't feasibly be reached in our universe, they'd still be lower than the current temperature of the air around me. And if it were a more respectful temperature, I'd think up some more bollocks about it being too hot. But it's too fucking hot.

And even when the bastard has fucked off to the other side of the planet, it's STILL too hot to sleep. Fans just move hot air around and air con units are melting like a snowman in Majorca. That enormous, celestial cock is pissing me off. I say we relocate. Find a nice red star to settle down around.

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Today's rage is dedicated to this fucker:

Hidden Content

That's right. For much of the year, he's nothing more than a glorified light bulb. A luminescent bastard with a sadistic desire to burn the pale.

But now it's beyond the joke. I feel like a Jew in goddamn Auschwitz. I feel like somebody's swapped my country for Australia. If people were to ask for a steak medium rare, they'd have to put ice cubes on it. If there were temperatures so high that they couldn't feasibly be reached in our universe, they'd still be lower than the current temperature of the air around me. And if it were a more respectful temperature, I'd think up some more bollocks about it being too hot. But it's too fucking hot.

And even when the bastard has fucked off to the other side of the planet, it's STILL too hot to sleep. Fans just move hot air around and air con units are melting like a snowman in Majorca. That enormous, celestial cock is pissing me off. I say we relocate. Find a nice red star to settle down around.

​You delicate flower... I live just outside London and it's 66 Fahrenheit and quite a comfortable midafternoon here.

https://www.google.ca/#q=weather+london+ontario+canada

:P

Edited by fittybolger

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Where I live it has been hot, high 20s but cloudy all day with a few spots of rain.  Havent see the Sun, but then again living in Scotland that is not unusual 

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I live just outside of the REAL London (a London in Canada sounds like a paradox) and I saw 34 Celsius today. Even the fire on my BBQ has asked for a drink.

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Screw you guys, hitting 40°C with humidity almost at the point where birds swim from tree to tree.

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I have never ever understood how you people in the EU and Britain have allowed your individual countries get into the mess it is in now. Outside looking in, you are self destructing in front of our very eyes.

You have completely destroyed your own border security and apportion blame to each other for your own failures.

Pathetic!.. and your own fault.

Indeed rescue the illegals from the so called leaky boats (sabotaged as soon as they have radio contact).

That is the humanitarian thing to do.

Sail them right back to the home port, (to within meters of maritime boarders) put them in unsinkable rescue boats (practically plastic bubbles)  and shove them right back to port.

... and you may actually save children from being drowned, because the actions you are doing now is only killing people. Again, your fault, because you decided to be responsible for strangers in a leaky boat.

Do that again, again, again and again, they will get exhausted/ run out of money, and/ or blame the people smuggler making all this profit.

Your individual countries should know which port they launched from. If not, that is an utter failure of your intelligence services, sack the Minister. Sack the staff. Get people in who can do the job!

Indeed your respective foreign offices should know; 1. how many boats are leaving port, 2. how may people on board, 3. intended destination. 4. Which people smuggler has arranged this boat. 4. actions taken to arrest said people smuggler or bring them to justice in your country.

The USA is reorganizing and refocusing. You in Europe are no longer her No 1 concern, in fact, and quite abruptly, you have moved very far down the list. Regardless of your political feelings of USA, you will all miss her. 

You have to look to your own security, and on every front, you are failing.

CrankyCat

 

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Big puddle that, the Mediterranean. Bordered by countries differing in security organization, economy, etc. Topping the fact that it's not like a bunch of immigrants on a boat are signing port papers and filling destination formularies, while a bearded skipper with a white hat and a pipe shouts 'Ahoy!' and takes a path within as many radar ranges as possible.

This is a very different situation from a monolithic (albeit 'federal') country like the US, with a barb wired wall across the Mexican border and a police force guarding it with the size of some countries armies. Thanks to which only a quarter of the country population is the dudes that sneaked in regardless. Who also comprise ~3/4 of all the illegal sneaked-in dudes in general. Worth to meditate on that, for a minute or two.

As for Europe 'not being No.1 priority' - I don't know what that means. It hasn't been in the past 70 years anyway, which you can squeeze to the last 30 if you are a vigorous Cold war fan and it's still pretty far by now.

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Rrrrright.

USA has no problems with immigrants at all. They are taking over your 'Land of the Brave'. It will soon me 'El pais del bravos'! Start learning SPANISH! It is your future language! Hue hue hue! First victim? That preposterous ugly haired rich arsehole running for president. What's his name? I don't remember and I don't care, Mex Power is turning him into a rich paria. Olla guapa!

I do agree the EU is proving absolutely powerless to handle this. Individual countries refusing to evenly share the load and just letting Italy and Greece suck up all the damage. Disgusting.

However your solution doesn't work. These people are desperate. What -does- however work is making our countries as unattractive as possible and bringing that message to Africa. EU is -not- your paradise. If you're an illegal immigrant here, life SUCKS. You are off worse here. You are better off improving your homeland. Basically this means you're going to have to treat illigal immigrants shittier than other nations. Crap solution but it does reduce the number of incomings.

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You have to look to your own security, and on every front, you are failing.

And yet 'Spanish' is one of the official languages of the US. I'm not too sure a big fence has done anything to help.

I've tried to look up the figures of illegal immigrants in the US and EU, but I can't find any figures I can really trust. However, assuming they are correct, the US suffers with more illegal immigrants actually in the nation compared to the entire EU (where 80% of our illegals pass through Greece, that damn debt-dodger).

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However your solution doesn't work. These people are desperate. What -does- however work is making our countries as unattractive as possible and bringing that message to Africa. EU is -not- your paradise. If you're an illegal immigrant here, life SUCKS. You are off worse here. You are better off improving your homeland. Basically this means you're going to have to treat illigal immigrants shittier than other nations. Crap solution but it does reduce the number of incomings.

​Actually you need to make their own countries more attractive to stay in.  For many the quality of life in their own country is so low, that no matter how bad the EU is it will be much better.  We need to help all of Africa to become much more modern if we want to solve things in the long term.

 

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