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I do agree the EU is proving absolutely powerless to handle this. Individual countries refusing to evenly share the load and just letting Italy and Greece suck up all the damage. Disgusting.

However your solution doesn't work. These people are desperate. What -does- however work is making our countries as unattractive as possible and bringing that message to Africa. EU is -not- your paradise. If you're an illegal immigrant here, life SUCKS. You are off worse here. You are better off improving your homeland. Basically this means you're going to have to treat illigal immigrants shittier than other nations. Crap solution but it does reduce the number of incomings.

​This is an effect of an EU/european immigrant policy that population in many countries support less and less.  Societies in Europe  are focusing on their own problems and "Europe is rich and should help others" is not flying well anymore, especially that nor whole Europe is rich and many european societies are becoming actually poorer. (unemployment, cost of living increasing more than wages, increasing diffrences in wealth/income between classes, etc)

I would not expect help from EU countries as long as current immigrant policy is as it is.

 

As for your solutution.  Sure, it would help to stop giving illegal immigrants help, but that alone won't solve it. Because even without help from goverments, EU will be considered a paradise for someone from an African/Middle East country that is in some kind of conflict for a long time and lot of those coutnries are.

Frankly if you want to really change immigrant problem and significantly reduce immigrant problems you need ALL of those solutuions meaning - immigrants on boats being turned back and expelled back to African shores,  fences being built on land bordes, making it hard on illegal immigrants,  change in being "oh so humanitarian" to whole world,  etc    Basically an 180 degrees turn around in case of illegal immigrants.

 

PS. That would also mean that making an domestic policy to all illegal and legal immigrants  "YOU as an immigrant do accept OUR values or you GTFO back"  + change in demographic policy from "it's ok that Europeans don't have enough children, we'll import immigrants" to actually giving a fuck about this.

 

It is a much bigger problem than just how to handle some boats filled with people in Italy.  It would require huge change in western European thinking.  Also western europe need to stop with "colonialism guilt". Seriously.

 

Edited by drul

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​Actually you need to make their own countries more attractive to stay in.  For many the quality of life in their own country is so low, that no matter how bad the EU is it will be much better.  We need to help all of Africa to become much more modern if we want to solve things in the long term.

 

​Ask Haïtians how the world's financial aid improved their lives after the quake.

Making the third world more attractive to stay in is their responsibility. That is the only way. The change must come from within.

Even we aren't able to stop our own richer from becoming richer. And we think we can actually resolve that situation in an entirely different country and culture?

I don't think the regimes yonder are going to be applauding us for educating their youth to overthrow their sick corrupt governments though....

Edited by Rainothon

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It is not about giving aid.  We must help them by trading with them, giving them a good price for their goods, so that their economies can grow.  This makes their own country more attractive to stay in.

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It is not about giving aid.  We must help them by trading with them, giving them a good price for their goods, so that their economies can grow.  This makes their own country more attractive to stay in.

​That's only assuming the people in power in those countries aren't corrupt. Otherwise, you're just lining the pockets of warlords, much like a lot of aid relief does.

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You can make it so you only trade with the countries that are not corrupt.  This will be a start.  Once these countries are becoming better places to live, people in neighbouring countries will want more from their governments or they will move to these other countries.  The net effect is less immigration to the EU, while getting a stronger world economy which is good for us.

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You can make it so you only trade with the countries that are not corrupt.  This will be a start.  Once these countries are becoming better places to live, people in neighbouring countries will want more from their governments or they will move to these other countries.  The net effect is less immigration to the EU, while getting a stronger world economy which is good for us.

​That really doesn't do much. We stop trading with corrupt countries. Someone else will keep doing it (because there will never be a time where everyone will stop trading for the sake of humanitarian reasons). The poor just get poorer, the rich keep stealing the money. Our bleeding-heart liberals start seeing the suffering in those countries and then start begging the unwashed masses of our country to give them money. The money ends up in the hands of the rich again and nothing changes. We still end up with people fleeing poverty and war. There's no way to improve those countries without directly conquering the nation and controlling it yourself.

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It is not about giving aid.  We must help them by trading with them, giving them a good price for their goods, so that their economies can grow.  This makes their own country more attractive to stay in.

​The idea is sympathetic but in practice ends up mostly lining the wrong coffers regardless. I do agree it results in raising the life standards for a portion of the Agricultural communities. And at the same time tend to keep them as such, because without produce there is no trade. Fairtrade won't breed the future leaders of the revolution.

​That really doesn't do much. We stop trading with corrupt countries. Someone else will keep doing it (because there will never be a time where everyone will stop trading for the sake of humanitarian reasons). The poor just get poorer, the rich keep stealing the money. Our bleeding-heart liberals start seeing the suffering in those countries and then start begging the unwashed masses of our country to give them money. The money ends up in the hands of the rich again and nothing changes. We still end up with people fleeing poverty and war. There's no way to improve those countries without directly conquering the nation and controlling it yourself.

​These countries need a revolution. Not implying one with guillotines or bombbelts. But a thorough overthrow of the ruling class and a redistribution of their wealth and power, followed by a political and economic reform that removes the principles of 'richests getting richer'. Hell, the whole world could use some of that.

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Today's rage is dedicated to this fucker:

Hidden Content

That's right. For much of the year, he's nothing more than a glorified light bulb. A luminescent bastard with a sadistic desire to burn the pale.

But now it's beyond the joke. I feel like a Jew in goddamn Auschwitz. I feel like somebody's swapped my country for Australia. If people were to ask for a steak medium rare, they'd have to put ice cubes on it. If there were temperatures so high that they couldn't feasibly be reached in our universe, they'd still be lower than the current temperature of the air around me. And if it were a more respectful temperature, I'd think up some more bollocks about it being too hot. But it's too fucking hot.

And even when the bastard has fucked off to the other side of the planet, it's STILL too hot to sleep. Fans just move hot air around and air con units are melting like a snowman in Majorca. That enormous, celestial cock is pissing me off. I say we relocate. Find a nice red star to settle down around.

​Suck it up, Buttercup, you could be in Florida.

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And yet 'Spanish' is one of the official languages of the US. I'm not too sure a big fence has done anything to help.

I've tried to look up the figures of illegal immigrants in the US and EU, but I can't find any figures I can really trust. However, assuming they are correct, the US suffers with more illegal immigrants actually in the nation compared to the entire EU (where 80% of our illegals pass through Greece, that damn debt-dodger).

​The US doesn't have an "official" language, do better research.

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​The US doesn't have an "official" language, do better research.

​There is no official language at the federal level, 31 states have made English the official language.

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​The US doesn't have an "official" language, do better research.

​Don't be pedantic. You know what I meant.

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​There is no official language at the federal level, 31 states have made English the official language.

​He said the US, that is the federal level. States have illusionary rights, they are rights until the Federal government disagrees, then they're not.

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​Don't be pedantic. You know what I meant.

​When it comes to your knowledge of the US nothing is certain, just weeks ago you were amazed about the Great Plains and how symmetrical our roads were. Just trying to educate you, friend.

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​When it comes to your knowledge of the US nothing is certain, just weeks ago you were amazed about the Great Plains and how symmetrical our roads were. Just trying to educate you, friend.

​Going full dick-mode today, eh?

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​Going full dick-mode today, eh?

​Just fuckin' with ya :)

Fact is, Spanish being used as an "official" language has little to do with illegal immigration. America has a huge, and growing, legal Hispanic populace. A good many of our most populated states, Florida, Texas, and California, were originally controlled by Spain or Mexico.

Edited by Spidey
Gave it serious thought

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Big puddle that, the Mediterranean. Bordered by countries differing in security organization, economy, etc. Topping the fact that it's not like a bunch of immigrants on a boat are signing port papers and filling destination formularies, while a bearded skipper with a white hat and a pipe shouts 'Ahoy!' and takes a path within as many radar ranges as possible.

This is a very different situation from a monolithic (albeit 'federal') country like the US, with a barb wired wall across the Mexican border and a police force guarding it with the size of some countries armies. Thanks to which only a quarter of the country population is the dudes that sneaked in regardless. Who also comprise ~3/4 of all the illegal sneaked-in dudes in general. Worth to meditate on that, for a minute or two.

As for Europe 'not being No.1 priority' - I don't know what that means. It hasn't been in the past 70 years anyway, which you can squeeze to the last 30 if you are a vigorous Cold war fan and it's still pretty far by now.

I am from Australia, not USA. Only lived in NYC for work for roughly 18 ish or so months.

Yes, the Colonization guilt has got to go. Simple fact. South America anywhere had no idea a great Chinese civilisation existed. Africa anywhere had no idea great civilization in South America existed.

Europe, and by Europe I mean only Spain, France and Great Britain, brought all of humanity together! Germany doesn't get a look in. Germany truly is a late 19th  century power when its internal states joined, as is USA.

Was colonization bad? I dunno. Did it happen.. yes.. Would it have happened, absolutely, just as African tribes and clans invaded other tribes and clans to increase territory to better feed the clan and tribes, Europe did the same, only with machines to help. 

Was these great meetings of humanity successful... dunno.. you be the judge, regardless it was to happen and It happened.

So, Western Europe- Get over it, you owe no one anything.

Indeed, the Mediterranean is a big puddle. Most of the now Western European countries in their own rights were 'super powers' at some stage over the past 300 years or so because of the Mediterranean and easy trade. Great Britain became the greatest super power the world has ever known simply through trade and forceful security of sea networks... the same vassel states that existed over that period, are still.. ridiculously poor. Nothing here is new or changed, and all the good will and hope and freely printed Euro and Western welfare won't change it. It has not happened in the past centuries, not going to happen now and in any future I can see.

They have to change themselves, and that, has not happened., so Europe, again, get over it.

Europe has been USA number 1 priority over and above the Middle East (no 2) for the past 70 years!

Who forced you mob into the EU? Who forced you mob into NATO? Who forced Greece into the Euro so it did not become the communist influence in the Mediterranean? Who forced Britain out of Egypt and finally end its on going empire delusion? You don't think you guys did it on your own do you?  You don't think you made those decisions by yourselves? 

The great Euro delusion is that you all get along. 

You don't.

The USA, frankly the last man standing, sick of the squabbling, smashed your heads together and you all fell into line.  You had no choice in the matter.  Without any of the treaties, none of you would have fully recovered, still to this day.

USA required the lot of you for its defence against USSR and communism and it required you as a cohesive force, not a bunch of arguing indecisive malcontents. 

But USA is somewhere around 20 Trillion in debt.. and you will have to tie your own shoe laces from now on, and guess what... I will not put money on Europe being able to do so. As with the Middle East, as soon as USA looks the other way, it all falls apart.

Russia does something mean, and USA still has to send over tanks and heavy armour... Really? How many nation states in EU again? How many standing armed forces in EU again?

How many young people from some tiny school in small town middle of no where USA need to enlist to protect Europe from itself?

USA needs to mend. Europe is falling apart. Start looking after your own.

USA and spanish speakers from the southern border .... I am pretty sure this was mentioned as you think I am from USA, but will give you my view of Mexico.

Lets be clear. Mexicans have a great work ethic. They are not going to USA to get on its outstanding world best generous welfare programs.

If Mexicans wanted that, it is not that great of a trip getting to France and Britain, is it.

Mexicans do not think of USA as the great Satan.. and other such nonsence. Mexicans do not hate USA because of religious intollerance.

The differences between immigration to USA to that in Europe and UK could not be more stark!

They willingly work on below legal minimum slave wages, without health protection, but they do see a chance to advance and make a better life. Most of Mexico is a desert without any worthwhile river system to speak of, if its geography was different, no doubt Mexico would be Spain's greatest success story, greater than any other nation south of its border.

I would put money on seeing 'made in Mexico' on the Walmart shelves in the not too distant future, replacing the all too familiar 'made in China'. THAT, would be an absolute bonanza for both Mexico and USA- Mexico for employment and $$$-  USA for having the greatest border security of any nation on the planet and having industry very close to home base and in a country that shares like values.

When a country does not have to worry about border security and energy requirements, it can look elsewhere, and USA is looking to Asia and indeed south of its border, having its Northern borders nicely stitched up and secure against threat.

I will say it again, get you borders into order. Europe will miss USA but the USA tax payer gets very little value from Europe. You had better get used to her not being there to pick you up.

CrankyCat

Edited by CrankyCat
  • Upvote 1

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@CrankyCat

Overally I agree. Just a few corrections to few of your points.

 

USA took over Great Britain as world superpower and USA preety much does what Britan was doing. Control over trade and sea routes via sea power supremacy and greatest power projection capabilities.  WW II was preety much a transitional war in which USA took over British empire.

 

USA debt is not because "it protected Europe".  USA debt is an cost of maintainint USA Empire.  All empires end up heavily in debt sooner or later.  On the other hand they can afford to be in debt because they are empires and "rules" for them are diffrent than ​for rest of the countries.

 

 

USA is not abandoning Europe (&Middle East) because 'USA tax payer is getting bad business".  USA is getting away because it has to shift it's resources to Asia to counter China there.  It does not have strenght to do both and countering China + keeping it's hand on Pacific&Asia regions is simply more important for USA.

 

 

[off-topic:  I don't really want to discuss this much. That is why I've put it into brackets to separate it from remainder of my post

As for Work Ethics,   Mexicans have those ethics because that is their best chance.  Some of immigrants groups in Western Europe have good work ethics too,  i.e. Eastern Europeans, Brasillians and Chinese usually have good work ethic.  As for Mexico itself,  2006 elections changed future of this country, it changed it into war zone and reservoir of very cheap labour for US for decades. ]

 

Anyway overally yes. EU will have to change,  and actually even though general sentiment is that EU will fall apart, I think it will be opposite.  EU countries will see that they have to get their shit together and stop with international policy that is about giving money away and being humanitarian.   Alternative is collapse of EU, and then most interesting will be whether France and Germany will keep their alliance or not.

 

 

Edited by drul

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@Cranky Cat I would add The Netherlands and Portugal to the list of great Western European colonial powers. They don't get too much coverage in the history books any longer, hell the whole world was divided up between Spain and Portugal by one of the Popes, being the only 2 Catholic sea powers.

Absolutely correct on, not just Mexican immigrants, but the vast majority of all Central and South American immigrants. Are there some bad apples? For sure. no doubt, that's just part of being human. I get so tired of the right wing line about how all Mexicans are coming here for welfare. Really? Just how do you get welfare with no Social Security card and state ID? The SS card isn't all that hard to duplicate, most Western nations would laugh if they saw one, it hasn't changed since 1935, but state ID's, at least in Florida. are quite high tech and a bitch to get now. Illegal immigrants stay away from any entity asking for ID, let alone proof of citizenship. That means banks, hospitals, clinics, libraries, and especially any government agencies.

Photobucket is borked today, but if you want a laugh click on the link to see the high tech US Social Security card.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pics+of+social+security+cards&tbm=isch&imgil=8hqHt45vENXqFM%3A%3BMXxGKpTvlQd3vM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fjasontoddipson.com%252F2013%252F05%252F26%252Ftake-time-to-do-things-right-now%252Fsocial-security-card2%252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=8hqHt45vENXqFM%3A%2CMXxGKpTvlQd3vM%2C_&biw=1920&bih=916&usg=__QFFGD5FZn4ojnIywTyw2qYGzQe0%3D&ved=0CDIQyjc&ei=OauVVd3rDsXn-QHQoJu4Ag#imgrc=8hqHt45vENXqFM%3A&usg=__QFFGD5FZn4ojnIywTyw2qYGzQe0%3D

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Photobucket is borked today, but if you want a laugh click on the link to see the high tech US Social Security card.

Try the UK National Insurance card...

5894887_orig.jpg

​Looks like a loyalty card for a cheap supermarket or something.

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Try the UK National Insurance card...

5894887_orig.jpg

​Looks like a loyalty card for a cheap supermarket or something.

​Wow, not much better than an SS card, sad.

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How could I have forgotten Portugal, yes indeed, it truly punched above its weight. The Netherlands, also, they were the proactive traders (still are).

The cost of USA empire is NATO etc. The money comes/ came form USA.

USA empire coming to an end?  USA is unfortunately coming to a crux economically, and it is going to be nasty, and it may be the first economic disaster started outside of USA that USA will catch. USA has never ever imported the world economic woes. The world has always catched USA economic woes, however the world currencies are being debased at lightning speeds.

I have faith in USA. History has shown she bumbles and farts around, and eventually in the end, she comes right.

Regardless of what you think of fracking, USA is now an energy exporter (regardless of Saudia Arabia trying to protect its economic patch).  Her dream of becoming energy sufficient has well and truly been realized. 

Energy self sufficient, safe borders, unlimited access to both Atlantic and Pacific, a stable state, still full of people wanting to succeed... 

USA is not going anywhere.

China?..  China is contained geographically on all sides, does not need USA to 'contain' it. Hence why China is trying to build landing strips in the middle of the China Sea. She is trying to get out of the geographical constraints she is in. China knows it controlls noting outside of its borders, hence the truly dodgy border claims.

 

USA will not allow China to realize those border claims. Neither will we, the World, bye the bye. USA is not alone here.

USA will maintain control of the international sea ways for many decades, longer than you and I will be alive. 

CrankyCat

 

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Sure USA Empire is not going anywhere and certainly China is not gonna replace USA as worldwide sea empire.  I never implied such. 

 

Thing is that for world to (start to)change no other country need to replace USA.  It will be enough for China to succesfully challange USA in one place.

Currently USA control ALL sea trade routes. Every major single one.  It has done so since WW2, USSR was land empire, weaker globally than USA always and much much weaker at seas and a pariah at really profitable international trade.



China on the other hand is fully integrated into international trade and for China to change global situation is to win at China Sea, Taiwan Strait and in more distant future Malacca Strait.  By "win" I don't necessarily mean direct military confrontation as in USA-China war,  but merely getting so strong that USA will not be considered anymore as sole deciding controller of those places and what happens there will always need (also) China approval.

For the world to change China only need to succesfully challange USA in some places, while in order to USA to keep status quo it needs to succesfully regain in control in every crucial trade route point.  USA will remain in control of interational sea routes, but will it remain sole deciding controller of all of them as it's now during our generation lifetime? I am not so sure.  It definately gonna try,  no empire ever did give up sole control over any of crucial trade route up willingly.

 

So while USA Empire is not going anywhere,  I think post WW2 era (USA was true winner of WW2,  Great Britain and USSR were not really) is slowly coming to an end.  It will be gradual process taking years and decades, but it propably started to happen already and might gradually start to see it's effects.

 

btw. For clarity I am not pro-China,  I definately prefer USA over China, what I personally prefer though does not change what imho is happening.

Edited by drul

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