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Doro
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Just to keep some basic balance.... 

Whether it was a loon with a knife and a jacket full of explosives.... or a loon who input coordinates and fired off a cruise missile at a city.....

Does it really make a difference to whoever catches the big "boom"?

And furthermore, is there really a difference between the bastards who gave the orders in both cases, these days?

Aaaaand furthermore, good job.. get nice and islamophobic, it's not like teenagers in any culture will take something that negatively affects them and blow it way out of proportion, and it's not like the likes of ISIL and Al-Qaeda NEED those bunches of pissy teens to be constantly bullied by the same people who bombed their parents into migrating to Europe/US in order to have a reliably recruitable population... hmmmmm.  

(For the record, it's just that I find extremists of all kinds and motivations extremely silly and with my best Spock sneer possible I also consider them highly illogical.   Now specifically in terms of Islamophobia... there's about a billion and a half of them out there, if they all were any more dangerous than you or me, the survivors would be facing Mecca at prayer time)

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27 minutes ago, Ardraug said:

Aaaaand furthermore, good job.. get nice and islamophobic, it's not like teenagers in any culture will take something that negatively affects them and blow it way out of proportion, and it's not like the likes of ISIL and Al-Qaeda NEED those bunches of pissy teens to be constantly bullied by the same people who bombed their parents into migrating to Europe/US in order to have a reliably recruitable population... hmmmmm. 

Doesn't really work like that, though. The people committing these atrocities aren't teenagers. They're usually between their mid 20s or early 30s. These guys aren't the result of non-Muslims treating Muslims differently. They're the result of being convinced by the terrorists who don't do the dirty work themselves. And they're usually people who have been in the country they're attacking for a long time. They have a better life here than they would have had there, but they get brainwashed into thinking they're somehow victims (by the media, by high-ranking members in their Mosques, and by espousers of extremism).

It isn't the place of non-Muslims to then pretend like everything's rosy. It's the place of others Muslims that know these people to stamp out extremism. If Muslims want to get pissy because people are starting to think they're all extremists, the answer isn't for them to then live up to it. 'I'll kill you for saying we're violent'. The answer is to combat it at its source. The way the extremists indoctrinate these people isn't instantaneous. People they know will notice. But it doesn't concern them.

The problem currently is, as much as people seem to want to deny it, the majority of Muslims are sympathetic to extremist views to a degree. We've seen it in various polls about Muslims in the west. They want a caliphate, they want their religion protected beyond others, they want the laws of their religion enforced. So when they see someone in their family seemingly enthusiastic about these views, they aren't concerned. They don't report them. They leave it until it boils over and they have to then go full damage control saying 'oh they weren't a real Muslim'. And then everyone else will go 'yeah, only a minority do this'.

But a minority is all it takes. And as their numbers grow, the number in this minority grows with it and the attacks just increase. If anyone has seen the video of the attack in Leytonstone, there's a guy that's screaming "you ain't no Muslim, bruv" at the detained terrorist. And the hilarious thing is, while people are saying 'no this one terrorist does not represent most Muslims', they're also saying that this one guy shouting at him does. It's a disconnect of logic.

46 minutes ago, Ardraug said:

... there's about a billion and a half of them out there, if they all were any more dangerous than you or me, the survivors would be facing Mecca at prayer time)

Give it time. This is probably the first time in history that a foreign force is using guerrilla warfare within the enemy country and succeeding.

Think about it like this. If I go to Syria or one of the other deserty shitholes, I'm going to stick out like a sore thumb. They will spot the whitey and just kill me. But they've got the advantage. Not only do they hide among innocents in their own country, they also hide among the innocents in other countries (who cling desperately to their culture and find it surprising when other people reject them for it). You can't spot who it is, and they use the confusion to their advantage. There's no way to combat that now beyond trying to get all of the innocents to assimilate.

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/nicolas-henin-the-man-who-was-held-captive-by-isis-for-10-months-says-how-they-can-be-defeated-a6757336.html   this guy may have better insight than the two of us combined.

 

As for assholes hiding among the innocents, every single country/religion/race has that, it's called "bad neighborhoods".  99% honest people (proportion of hardworking ones varies per nation), 1% comfortable criminal element. (exact figures these are not, but the idea you get, hrm?)

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1 minute ago, Ardraug said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/nicolas-henin-the-man-who-was-held-captive-by-isis-for-10-months-says-how-they-can-be-defeated-a6757336.html   this guy may have better insight than the two of us combined.

 

As for assholes hiding among the innocents, every single country/religion/race has that, it's called "bad neighborhoods".  99% honest people (proportion of hardworking ones varies per nation), 1% comfortable criminal element. (exact figures these are not, but the idea you get, hrm?)

Why does that article's title sound like a comic book? 'I know their weakness... try a swift kick to the gonads.'

There's been a vast difference between these extremists and 'bad neighbourhoods'. I lived in one of those for about 19 years, I didn't see a single terrorist attack (well, unless you count the kids that set fire to the porta-loo and made it stink for days). This is like 70s/80s Northern Ireland levels of problems, and whole armies were mobilised for that shit.

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23 minutes ago, Ardraug said:

Oh boy... you just confirm my relief at not living anywhere near the US or NATO countries in general.

You'd be surprised how far not bombing other countries goes toward keeping extremists out ^_^

How is Antarctica this time of year?

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15 hours ago, Ardraug said:

Oh boy... you just confirm my relief at not living anywhere near the US or NATO countries in general.

You'd be surprised how far not bombing other countries goes toward keeping extremists out ^_^

All it does is put you further down the list. You're still on it, don't worry.

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6 hours ago, Doro said:

 

I think it translated roughly as "We have no military to speak of and rely on the US for defence which means we can say stuff like 'we don't bomb terrorists because rainbows and unicorns' but please don't take anything we say seriously because if you did come after us the US would crush you like a bug."

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If you can google to sustain bigotry, you can googletranslate "tropical and 9 degrees off the equator".

 

Also, the last and only country to bomb us was the US... overthrowing Noriega... who was still literally on the CIA payroll.... details eh (oh and he could have been overthrown a couple months before but SouthCom ignored the coup orchestrators).

I'm gonna leave it at that before you two start quoting Sarah Palin ^_^

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7 hours ago, mtones said:

Apparently the level of idiotic "advice" from "experts" has reached new lows in recent days in US...   good grief!

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/wake-san-bernardino-sheriffs-urge-residents-carry-guns-n476291

It seems to work.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/uber-driver-with-concealed-handgun-prevents-mass-shooting-in-chicago-2015-4?r=US&IR=T

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I'm in two minds on it, really.

On the one hand, I find it laughable that Americans believe gun ownership is a 'god given, unalienable right'. As if they're born at birth and a light shines upon them, turning their umbilical cord into a pistol. Or that the 2nd Amendment is a law of nature, completely ignoring the meaning of the word 'amendment'.

On the other, I know I'd much rather have the freedom to carry a firearm in case some nutter who doesn't abide by the law decides to let loose. After all, they're already prepared to murder people, a gun ban isn't going to deter them.

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There has been 353 mass shootings in the US this year alone (mass shooting being where 4 or more people are injured or kill), yet the last mass shooting in the UK was in 2010.  

Gun laws here are so much better and it does work.  No law will ever stop all shootings but lets not make it easy.  In the US you cant buy a Kinder Surprise yet you can buy a AR 15 in a Super Market.  It is crazy.  When it is easier to get a gun then a chocolate egg there is something wrong with your country.

You dont have to register the sale of your gun in the US (at least in most states), but you have to register your car if you sell that.  It is just silly to me that guns can be bought and sold and there is no record of them.  Making it so all guns have to be registered and if you sell it you must notify the relevant authorities is not much to ask.  Ensuring that the person you are selling to has a licence would be a start.  There is so much that the US could do that would not infringe on the 2nd amendment, sadly too many nutters are in positions of power and will not let that happen.

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9 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

There has been 353 mass shootings in the US this year alone (mass shooting being where 4 or more people are injured or kill), yet the last mass shooting in the UK was in 2010.  

Gun laws here are so much better and it does work.  No law will ever stop all shootings but lets not make it easy.  In the US you cant buy a Kinder Surprise yet you can buy a AR 15 in a Super Market.  It is crazy.  When it is easier to get a gun then a chocolate egg there is something wrong with your country.

You dont have to register the sale of your gun in the US (at least in most states), but you have to register your car if you sell that.  It is just silly to me that guns can be bought and sold and there is no record of them.  Making it so all guns have to be registered and if you sell it you must notify the relevant authorities is not much to ask.  Ensuring that the person you are selling to has a licence would be a start.  There is so much that the US could do that would not infringe on the 2nd amendment, sadly too many nutters are in positions of power and will not let that happen.

The comparison is a little off, though (plus, the vast number of 'mass shootings' are gang related, i.e. criminals shooting other criminals). Let's say guns are banned in the US. Well that only restricts legal suppliers. It's harder to import guns into our country than the US, which is bordered by a country infamous for gangs and cartels that can smuggle in anything. As we all know, they've not been very successful at stopping these guys in the whole 'war on drugs'.

If you think about it for us, we've got problems with knives. They took away guns, now only criminals have them (and, again, mostly on other criminals), so people turned instead to using knives. They just changed what they were using to kill and threaten people. Now I'm not legally allowed to carry a weapon to defend myself, but law isn't exactly the strong suit of people I'd need to defend myself from. So I have to deal with the risk of being stopped and searched, then going to prison for daring to want to even the odds. As if I should have just said 'there is a law against your knife' and it will magically disappear.

I'm definitely with you on the Kinder thing. And the registering of weapons, that should be a given. Shit, they don't even require training for their weapons but they do for cars... and they don't even drive manuals! But if they can make it so that licences are required (with tests to pass for it), weapons and users are registered, and only certain kinds of guns are permitted, then I can't see a problem with it. I think the chance to survive an unbalanced situation is more important than trying to make guns less accessible to criminals.

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Let me see:

Guns are not for sale in supermarkets, at least not in any I've ever seen or heard of and I've lived in 4 States and spent time in all of the lower 48.

Gang gun violence is not the majority of mass shootings here. To the best of my knowledge the majority are domestic violence in a home. Gang shootings are typically less than 4 persons.

Training is required though only for a licence to carry, not to own.

We actually do drive manual as well as automatics.

Types of guns available to the public are limited, though special licences and permits can allow collectors some access to some banned weapons.

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Up until very recently you could buy an AR 15 in Walmart, which we in the UK would refer to as a supermarket.  Now they are focusing on guns for hunting and shooting sporting clays.  

http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/26/news/companies/walmart-ar-15-guns/ 

Here is a list of each mass shooting in the US in 2015.  In most cases the gunman is unknown, so my bet is most mass shootings are not domestic situations.  Most non mass shootings will most likely be domestic violence related

http://www.shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015

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No matter your view of the "right" or perhaps the "wrong" of Americans having constitutionally blessed weapons.... for lack of a better description.... what I find massively idiotic about the article I linked is that in the current climate of mass paranoia and hatred already climbing on a daily basis in THIS country (something which you may think you are already aware of...), it is completely irresponsible to encourage people in this way at this of all times. 

The huge amount of conflict currently happening seemingly everywhere with police killings in nearly every major city in the US, the coverage on the Planned Parenthood shooting, Black Lives demonstrations and occupations everywhere, now this in San Bernardino (in the wake of over-saturation of media coverage about Paris), ISIS, etc., the freaking nut job TRUMP comments every day.... the LAST thing we need to be doing here, especially if you are in LAW ENFORCEMENT, is to encourage the people to carry their god-given firearms  - considering the very obvious mindset of the vast majority of people who carry them, let alone the ones who are only too happy to use them....

 

 

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27 minutes ago, FundinStrongarm said:

What is the "very obvious mindset of the vast majority of the people who carry them"? I would submit the vast majority of the people who carry them have no intention to use them on anyone.

There would not be enough time to explain it to you.  And saying that people who carry guns have no intention of using them is an oxymoronic rationalization the NRA is only all too fond of shoving down people's throats here.  In my nearly 30 years of working in social services in this country, often in collaboration with law enforcement and community based agencies, I have never once met a "responsible gun owner" as the NRA likes to call them, let alone someone with a CCDW license in particular who wasn't perfectly comfortable with idea of blowing any one, any where, away.

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