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Infinite Crisis Closing: August 14th, 2015


thordsvin
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Turbine seems to be institutionally incapable of doing anything truly original or fresh.

For the last decade, what have they done except try to follow the herd?

The problem with following the herd, as they've just learned, is that if you wind up near the back of the pack, you're somebody else's lunch.

missing-the-herd.jpg?189db0

Within LotRO, every attempt to innovate has been an epic failure.

Their managers are just not very good at what they do.  They go all-in on ideas that should have been shot down the first time they were suggested.

You'd think they might occasionally get something right just by dumb luck, but we're still waiting...

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Well, can't say I'm surprised. I did say it wouldn't go anywhere and that it was jumping on the MOBA bandwagon far far too late.

No-one here should be surprised either.

As for speculation regarding cash flow going back to LOTRO, do any of you honestly care at this point?

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Well, can't say I'm surprised. I did say it wouldn't go anywhere and that it was jumping on the MOBA bandwagon far far too late.

No-one here should be surprised either.

As for speculation regarding cash flow going back to LOTRO, do any of you honestly care at this point?

​I'm playing LOTRO again and I am having so much fun regardless of its severe limitations and lack of investment. i just have not found another mmo I can be drawn into, even though I know technically they are all better.

I'm in a kin of great people. I loved that they added group content with the last update.  I'd love for LOTRO to get a bit more money so that we get more content. Do I expect it though? No, absolutely not. I'm not sure what is going to happen to LOTRO. A complete shut down would not surprise me at this point.

EA closed down Maxis this year. WB may cull Turbine at any time. IC's failure can not have gone down well at all with investors.

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They just ate a huge loss and wrote off years' worth of development and marketing costs for a game that never made a cent.

I don't think the prospects for "cash flow" going anywhere except to their creditors are very good.

​indeed, and i have to wonder if the June 4th company event at Turbine... won't be the delivery of yet another axe fall...  gotta appease the shareholders.

it is ludicrous to expect LoTRO to receive more funds, or new developers at a point when more cuts are the likeliest scenario.

what pot could they possibly siphon off of at this point?  the big budget for the potential GoT mobile project in early stages?

my caring, or no, has absolutely no relevance to the current situation.

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Well, can't say I'm surprised. I did say it wouldn't go anywhere and that it was jumping on the MOBA bandwagon far far too late.

No-one here should be surprised either.

As for speculation regarding cash flow going back to LOTRO, do any of you honestly care at this point?

If my math is correct, 4 1/2 years worth of sub fees, 5 xpacs bought and about 40 $ in to purchases, not to mention mithril edition.  Yeah I still care where they spend money.  It's around 800$ I gave to them not only to enjoy the game but further its development.

 Some of us once believed we would continue to get great content.  But it stopped happening.  We can all speculate on why that happened, but that doesn't take away from our investment.  If the game had content worth playing most of these ex players would be current players, myself included.  You just don't bet on the horse with the broken leg.

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Quoting the G-Man from the greatest series to have a vaporware sequel "Prepare for unforeseen consequences".

Whatever's about to go down with LotRO, I would bet that they have enough financing from WB to finish out the story to the Grey Harbors, then go no further.

I would be surprised if there's more than 8 servers between NA and EU by the end of the year.  

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Some of us once believed we would continue to get great content. 

​I actually care that Lotro as a world at least lives on longer. I have no expectations for them to improve it much.

Things were bad before F2P - when there was little new content coming because they were putting all their work in to the store. Then after F2P a lot of us were waiting to see the rewards of going F2P and all the money from new players. But the expansion after F2P was pretty bad, and the new content they made never got any better. I haven't expected anything good from Turbine since that first expansion after going F2P.

Maybe they made a few gems of content, but it was clear Lotro would never be a thriving MMO and we would never get an expansion comparable to other MMOs like Rift or WoW.

Can you imagine how PvMP would be if it got the same love (and money) that Trion and Blizard were giving to PvP in their games.

Edited by nosam9
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I would be surprised if there's more than 8 servers between NA and EU by the end of the year.  

​they allegedly have layering architecture & server virtualization in place; really they should just bite the bullet and go one (or two for RP) mega servers on each side of the pond and be done with it.... but Turbine.

having all those players sharing an auction hall, & the potential to access the largest portion of remaining players to group with, that just makes too much sense to happen.

and they'd likely fudge that up royally...  forget i mentioned it.  :|

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could they run a mega server in a way there is no lag from too many players? It seems possible, but didn't Brandywine have lag issues often from having too many people?

​the player account info, AH, mail systems and chat client could be loaded on a separate (integrated) data server.  then you just add servers with specific regions and players located in according to need.

my biggest concern would be the mess created by Turbines ancient code/file structures, that do not currently play nice with data set-ups like that.

but right now, the current game hosts players in similar regions, but on separate servers, on the same machine, soo...

 

additionally so much seems to be happening in upper upper management, that those doing the grunt work aren't privy to...  so whatever the game plan, it appears disjointed with reason.

 

it is possible, but i don't have confidence the current Turbine structure/team is up to it.

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​they allegedly have layering architecture & server virtualization in place; really they should just bite the bullet and go one (or two for RP) mega servers on each side of the pond and be done with it.... but Turbine.

having all those players sharing an auction hall, & the potential to access the largest portion of remaining players to group with, that just makes too much sense to happen.

and they'd likely fudge that up royally...  forget i mentioned it.  :|

I said 8 because of EU having EN, FR, and DE servers, so I doubt they'd ever merge those as it would become a giant cluster.

I would guess that Turbine would drop a non-English language first, but I doubt that will happen as it would generate some really bad publicity for LotRO, which is the last thing LotRO needs atm.

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One of the reasons I saw officially mentioned for the closing of IC was something among the lines of 'The MOBA market evolved during the development of IC'. Or something similar. It sounds as if the game became 'obsolete' even before release.

Could someone explain to me --as someone aside of the MOBA games-- what does this mean exactly? And why it isn't obvious in advance that a developers team will end up in exactly that mess. How do you decide to take such a risk, or is it that they couldn't evaluate it realistically? What 'evolution' of the market screwed the whole IC adventure? Suddenly all MOBA companies started to use engines that are suitable for MOBA games, or what?

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One of the reasons I saw officially mentioned for the closing of IC was something among the lines of 'The MOBA market evolved during the development of IC'. Or something similar. It sounds as if the game became 'obsolete' even before release.

Could someone explain to me --as someone aside of the MOBA games-- what does this mean exactly? And why it isn't obvious in advance that a developers team will end up in exactly that mess. How do you decide to take such a risk, or is it that they couldn't evaluate it realistically? What 'evolution' of the market screwed the whole IC adventure? Suddenly all MOBA companies started to use engines that are suitable for MOBA games, or what?

​That sounds like marketing talk for , our game is doing worse than predicted and now there is a new rival that will hit us hard so lets get out now and cut our losses.

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​That sounds like marketing talk for , our game is doing worse than predicted and now there is a new rival that will hit us hard so lets get out now and cut our losses.

​This. Heroes of the Storm has had a number of positive reviews and is doing well, there was no way they could compete with another MOBA, especially one developed by Blizzard who are far better at this multiplayer PvP stuff that Turbine have ever been.

Edited by Laurinaohtar
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​That sounds like marketing talk for , our game is doing worse than predicted and now there is a new rival that will hit us hard so lets get out now and cut our losses.

​Also I think someone in WB had visions of "multi-media synergy" with comic books, movies, and IC all linked together in a glorious cavalcade of cash pouring in, and couldn't let go of that delusion even as all signs pointed to IC at least being nothing but a money sink.  

The PR people couldn't blame it on "bad decision making" so they came up with something that made it seem out of their control.

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One of the reasons I saw officially mentioned for the closing of IC was something among the lines of 'The MOBA market evolved during the development of IC'. Or something similar. It sounds as if the game became 'obsolete' even before release.

Could someone explain to me --as someone aside of the MOBA games-- what does this mean exactly? And why it isn't obvious in advance that a developers team will end up in exactly that mess. How do you decide to take such a risk, or is it that they couldn't evaluate it realistically? What 'evolution' of the market screwed the whole IC adventure? 

​Why would you actually think what they say is true? For IC, it is not true "The MOBA market evolved".

They just don't want to say the real reason: "IC failed because we did a really bad job at the game, especially with the net code. Players did not want to play a MOBA with bad lag. Also, we did nothing new and innovative, but instead copied heavily from LoL (but made a worse game). We had a bad launch, left out important features of the game, and generally did a bad job of making IC. If there was any hope of IC becoming a success, we blew that by doing a bad job making the game".

Why would you expect any big company (especially Turbine!!!) to actually tell people the truth.

The has been no evolution of the MOBA industry. You have two very stable, very dominant genre leaders (LoL and Dota), many bad copies of them that have failed, and now a very important new player with Blizzards HOTS. Guess what? While Turbine made a really bad, shoddy copy of LoL, Blizzard made a very fun, very different type of MOBA with HOTS. It is innovative and very well made. And another company made another very innovative, well made game: Smite. That is doing very well.

They sold WB on this "great idea" and then made a crappy product.

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Blizzard's innovations are mostly to strip out the complexities and macro strategy from other titles.  There's no item purchasing (So no difference in creating builds for your champion), NPC farming and EXP is granted team wide (removing some of the macro level strategy, and providing a crutch to weaker players on a team).

Blizzard basically made a casuals only game that "innovates" by removing features.

I think they'll do well stripping the casual playerbase from LOL/DOTA, but doubt they'll gain the traction these two have.

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Blizzard's innovations are mostly to strip out the complexities and macro strategy from other titles.  There's no item purchasing (So no difference in creating builds for your champion), NPC farming and EXP is granted team wide (removing some of the macro level strategy, and providing a crutch to weaker players on a team).

Blizzard basically made a casuals only game that "innovates" by removing features.

I think they'll do well stripping the casual playerbase from LOL/DOTA, but doubt they'll gain the traction these two have.

​I think you haven't played HOTS much. It is simpler, but they made a very fun, complete game. Stripped down, but still a whole game that does things differently. For example, the shared XP is innovative and a very good feature.

You last sentence makes no sense. LoL and DOTA are huge. It doesn't make sense to me to say HOTS wont have the traction of these huge games. That is like saying you don't think that new novel will have the traction of the Bible.

HOTS does not need to try to have as many players as them - but still will be very successful and have a large player base. HOTS is very well made and, like most Blizzard games, quite addicting and fun.

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On the contrary, I have been playing since Friends/Family releases.  Beta connections FTW.

I just happen to think removing tactical depth hurts the game more than it helps.  ESPECIALLY on long term replay value.

Understand that gaining the traction that LOL/DOTA have is very much Blizzards goal with this project.  They made a bet that removing some of the harder barriers to game mastery would pull the casuals from the more "difficult to master" MOBAs.  I don't think that this will happen.  I did not claim the game wouldn't make money or have a good playerbase.  But it's going to tall short of becoming a dominant player in the genre - becoming the first of the current gen Blizzard games to own that distinction.

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But it's going to tall short of becoming a dominant player in the genre - becoming the first of the current gen Blizzard games to own that distinction.

​We will have to wait and see about that (red part). Why does HOTS need to be dominant or have more players that either game? I don't think Blizzard expects HOTS to get as big as LoL and Dota. They have pulled players from LoL and Dota though. But to me it doesn't matter if how many.

Why I have transitioned to HotS after 5 years of LoL
https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/38hgs0/why_i_have_transitioned_to_hots_after_5_years_of/

I think Blizzard is smart enough to realize they will get new players who never played either - who are drawn by shorter games and less complexity - and a game that is much easier to get in to. HOTS will be in the top 5 MOBA very quickly if it is not already. Maybe that is good enough. I can't believe anyone at Blizzard is silly enough to think the number of HOTS players will match LoL and Dota players any time in the next few years. But HOTS will make tons of money for Blizzard. 

Obviously you know a lot about HOTS - probably more than me as a new player. Just curious - did you ever play Dota or LoL? I could not get in to them - but HOTS is incredibly easy to get in to. You can be decent in HOTS (not great or knowledgable of course) after about a week - at least enough to know a hero or two and contribute to a team in a quick match.

It is interesting to me that to become good at HOTS you need to know a ton of complex stuff - such as the abilities of 36 heroes and all the map strategies. Easy to get in to, but a pretty high level of knowledge required to be really good.

Edited by nosam9
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​We will have to wait and see about that (red part). Why does HOTS need to be dominant or have more players that either game? I don't think Blizzard expects HOTS to get as big as LoL and Dota. They have pulled players from LoL and Dota though. But to me it doesn't matter if how many.

Why I have transitioned to HotS after 5 years of LoL
https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/38hgs0/why_i_have_transitioned_to_hots_after_5_years_of/

I think Blizzard is smart enough to realize they will get new players who never played either - who are drawn by shorter games and less complexity - and a game that is much easier to get in to. HOTS will be in the top 5 MOBA very quickly if it is not already. Maybe that is good enough. I can't believe anyone at Blizzard is silly enough to think the number of HOTS players will match LoL and Dota players any time in the next few years. But HOTS will make tons of money for Blizzard. 

Obviously you know a lot about HOTS - probably more than me as a new player. Just curious - did you ever play Dota or LoL? I could not get in to them - but HOTS is incredibly easy to get in to. You can be decent in HOTS (not great or knowledgable of course) after about a week - at least enough to know a hero or two and contribute to a team in a quick match.

It is interesting to me that to become good at HOTS you need to know a ton of complex stuff - such as the abilities of 36 heroes and all the map strategies. Easy to get in to, but a pretty high level of knowledge required to be really good.

​I still actively play LOL.  Part of the draw of the genre is the depth.  

LOL currently has (top of my head) ~130 Champions available.  Understand that in this genre, that is the money maker.  HOTS is launching with 36.  That is going to increase.  That's where the money is.  Selling Champions (though HOTs is going to hit you on fancy clothes and mounts as well).

IMO the biggest factors in getting match time down to ~20 minutes was smaller/simpler maps and team experience.  Team experience is a huge crutch, since weaker players tend to get outleveled in LOL.  The maps though... VERY small and the lanes are very short.

I think simplification worked for Hearthstone in a way it doesn't for HOTS.

I don't want my post to be seen as bashing - just opinion.  Realistically, HOTS uses the SCII engine, and the Hearthstone Micropayment infastructure.  It was not a huge investment of technological resources. Usually Blizzard titles have engines developed for the project - it's notable that their two F2P games either used an off the shelf engine (Hearthstone was Built in Unity), or reuse an existing engine (Though really, the SCII engine was a perfect fit).  Only a fool would claim they are not going to make quite a bit of money from this.  Relatively speaking however, it's not the bees knees compared to its competition.  Blizzard is usually in position to beat other players in a genre with polish, but the top dogs in MOBA are already highly polished.

Edited by Stickeez
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