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Infinite Crisis Closing: August 14th, 2015


thordsvin
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Apart from the fact he's a dude, you mean?

 

But where is the harm in it? Who does it hurt if someone wants to be known as he\she\it instead of the biologically correct term? It's just one extra letter, takes a bit more effort to pronounce perhaps, but its no big deal.

(also wtf is up with this quote thing, I didn't quote Thrabath?!)

Edited by Laurinaohtar
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But where is the harm in it? Who does it hurt if someone wants to be known as he\she\it instead of the biologically correct term? It's just one extra letter, takes a bit more effort to pronounce perhaps, but its no big deal.

(also wtf is up with this quote thing, I didn't quote Thrabath?!)

Doro has it right. I could care less about the name someone chooses... but... In this case name change is used in order to reinforce their delusion and I refuse to give tacit approval to those decisions.

The "Quote" system here is FUBAR.

Edit: I have found a way to remove the quote detritus but what works for me might not work for you. When I notice the garbage popping up when I quote I need to:

1) use a right mouse click and "select all". 2) delete it and start over

For me if I don't delete everything in this way it will remain in the cache for the specific thread and will return... and grow... with each attempt.

Edited by fittybolger
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 But where is the harm in it? Who does it hurt if someone wants to be known as he\she\it instead of the biologically correct term? It's just one extra letter, takes a bit more effort to pronounce perhaps, but its no big deal.

(also wtf is up with this quote thing, I didn't quote Thrabath?!)

Physically? No harm to me. Possibly to them, when they go and get mutilated because people are validating their delusion, then realise it hasn't solved their problems. But there's the threat to language. She refers specifically to females. He to males. If we begin using pronouns incorrectly, then there's no reason to even use pronouns at all. If there's nothing to base male or female on any more, anyone can be anything and it opens up a host of other issues.

We're also giving special privileges to one disorder over the others. As has been mentioned, the trans-species, trans-racial, and trans-abled crowds are growing, because society is becoming more 'tolerant' of pandering to delusions. Instead of helping the issue, it's opening it up to even more vulnerable people.

But, there's an even simpler reason for me: it's just not true. It's not about who it hurts or who it benefits, it's about what's true. And that's the case for me with everything.

Yeah, quotes are FUBAR (get out of my head, Fitty).

 

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Doro has it right. I could care less about the name someone chooses... but... In this case name change is used in order to reinforce their delusion and I refuse to give tacit approval to those decisions.

Except there is no delusion to reinforce, because it's not a mental illness. So your approval - tacit or otherwise - is irrelevant. Gender is no longer binary. It is a legitimate gender identity and is not unhealthy or destructive.

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You certainly are not obliged to call anyone by any name, there is no obligation at all for me to call you by your name, I could choose to call you "chicken & chorizo sandwich" if I wanted (guess what I am eating right now). Surely though it is a matter of respect, I respect you and your wishes so will call you by whatever you wish to be called. If Celestrata wishes to be known as She then I am happy to call her that. I don't know who this Bruce person is but assume it is someone who wishes to go by a female name, I would be happy to respect her wishes, frankly there is no reason not to.

Certainly calling someone by their legal name, especially if they've been known by that name for 60 years should be fine, shouldn't it? They will have more respect from me if they legally change their name before I am corrected.

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Except there is no delusion to reinforce, because it's not a mental illness. So your approval - tacit or otherwise - is irrelevant. Gender is no longer binary. It is a legitimate gender identity and is not unhealthy or destructive.

Are people who self iidentify as trans-abled/racist/species suffering from a mental illness? Is ableness/race/species binary?

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Are people who self iidentify as trans-abled/racist/species suffering from a mental illness? Is ableness/race/species binary?

Ask a doctor or a psychologist. I have no idea, and I haven't read any studies on any of those things. I would assume that in cases where they have been explored it has been as separate matters in their own right. I'm not 100% sure why you keep bringing them up when we're talking about something else, beyond raising them as 'what next' logical fallacies.

I have read studies on gender identity, written by actual doctors and psychologists, and they don't side with you I'm afraid.

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Except there is no delusion to reinforce, because it's not a mental illness. So your approval - tacit or otherwise - is irrelevant. Gender is no longer binary. It is a legitimate gender identity and is not unhealthy or destructive.

"No longer"? When did it change?

** fitty reaches down... whew... thank goodness... the beast which dwells in the zippered wastes is still... beastly**

"not unhealthy or destructive" well the beastly beast disagrees there.

Mentally/emotionally there is a very high incidence of suicide among Transgender... no doubt it is due to the lack of acceptance by people like myself and has nothing to do with the fact that they remain a man/woman regardless of surgical and pharmaceutical butchery.

Physically there are also massive complications/side effects from the procedure. 

So fine... people can choose to visit Dr. Mengele's Feel Good Clinic if they wish... but the delusional foundation remains immutable and intact regardless. Yes the current in thing is to accept this delusion as somehow "legitimate" but that will change... bloodletting and lobotomies enjoyed their "day in the medical butchery sun" as well.

Edited by fittybolger
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people can choose to visit Dr. Mengele's Feel Good Clinic if they wish... but the delusional foundation remains immutable and intact regardless. Yes the current "in thing" is to accept this delusion as somehow "legitimate" but that will change.

Yay! Godwin's Law! :)

No it doesn't "remain intact." Read some studies written by people with authority on the subject.

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You certainly are not obliged to call anyone by any name, there is no obligation at all for me to call you by your name, I could choose to call you "chicken & chorizo sandwich" if I wanted (guess what I am eating right now). Surely though it is a matter of respect, I respect you and your wishes so will call you by whatever you wish to be called. If Celestrata wishes to be known as She then I am happy to call her that. I don't know who this Bruce person is but assume it is someone who wishes to go by a female name, I would be happy to respect her wishes, frankly there is no reason not to.

You really don't know who Bruce Jenner is? He was kinda a big deal, his picture was on a Wheaties box, high praise for athletes in the US.

jenner_zpsje6puefk.jpg

 

Edited by Spidey
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"No longer"? When did it change?

Supposedly, that changed when Gender Identity Disorder was renamed Gender Dysphoria, because they decided the word 'disorder' was too stigmatizing. Yeah, you read that right. They took away the word disorder not because it isn't a disorder (it is, and any honest authority on the subject acknowledges this), but because it hurt people's feelings. But it's still diagnosed and it's still listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders by the American Psychiatric Association.

See, reality changes because of the emotional reactions from the masses. Silly we didn't realise, really.

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Supposedly, that changed when Gender Identity Disorder was renamed Gender Dysphoria, because they decided the word 'disorder' was too stigmatizing. Yeah, you read that right. They took away the word disorder not because it isn't a disorder (it is, and any honest authority on the subject acknowledges this), but because it hurt people's feelings. But it's still diagnosed and it's still listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders by the American Psychiatric Association.

See, reality changes because of the emotional reactions from the masses. Silly we didn't realise, really.

Again, wrong.

It was previously thought to be purely a mental disorder, true. But that conclusion is out of date and is now considered incorrect and misleading. It was renamed Gender Dysphoria because we learned more about it and now understand it better than we used to. Studies were found to show that it has a biological cause that originates before birth, and is not a mental illness as was previously thought.

Essentially, any hormonal problems that influence the development of the foetus may result in a divergence of gender identity and physical sex. The hormones that determine the development of physical sex may not work on the developing brain in the same way.

It's proven science that people are born this way.

Edited by Hajile
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Again, wrong.

It was previously thought to be purely a mental disorder, true. But that conclusion is out of date and is now considered incorrect and misleading. It was renamed Gender Dysphoria because we learned more about it and now understand it better than we used to. Studies were found to show that it has a biological cause that originates before birth, and is not a mental illness as was previously thought.

Essentially, any hormonal problems that influence the development of the foetus may result in a divergence of gender identity and physical sex. The hormones that determine the development of physical sex may not work on the developing brain in the same way.

It's proven science that people are born this way.

Just more talking out of your arse, really. It's still diagnosed the same way and it's still in a book about mental disorders. They just changed the name so people weren't upset about the word 'disorder', but the disorder itself didn't change. Many mental disorders begin before birth and have biological causes. Not everyone who suffers from the disorder suffer in the same way or from the same causes, so not all of them are born that way either. And you're using illness and disorder interchangeably, when they aren't the same thing.

Want to try again?

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Obviously, Doro won't drop this.

Transgender is a perfect topic of debate for Doro - he can put other people's behavior down and make all sorts of arguments to justify himself. As in, putting down Celestrata's behavior.

And yes, some Christian groups are pretty awful and do awful things. You can't really deny that.   

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Obviously, Doro won't drop this.

Transgender is a perfect topic of debate for Doro - he can put other people's behavior down and make all sorts of arguments to justify himself. As in, putting down Celestrata's behavior.

And yes, some Christian groups are pretty awful and do awful things. You can't really deny that.   

Classic nosam and his strawmen. You're making the mistake of thinking I put him down for his disorder, not that I put him down for being a dick and he happens to have a disorder. Kinda like when there's a crime and the victim is a black person, it instantly becomes a 'hate crime' even if race wasn't the reason.

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Just more talking out of your arse, really. It's still diagnosed the same way and it's still in a book about mental disorders. They just changed the name so people weren't upset about the word 'disorder', but the disorder itself didn't change. Many mental disorders begin before birth and have biological causes. Not everyone who suffers from the disorder suffer in the same way or from the same causes, so not all of them are born that way either. And you're using illness and disorder interchangeably, when they aren't the same thing.

Want to try again?

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Causes.aspx

http://www.news-medical.net/health/Causes-of-Gender-Dysphoria.aspx

http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/gdev/gender-dysphoria.pdf

That took literally 30 seconds on Google and were the first three links I found. It is not exactly rocket science to take on board new information. But then if you bothered to do any homework at all you would probably find those precious preconceptions of yours challenged more often than would make you comfortable.

It's not a mental illness. It's a biological condition that is recognized in UK and EU law, protecting those who have the condition. This conclusion is supported by science and law, and as research continues, we are only finding more evidence that it's biological.

But feel free to continue making obsolete claims based exclusively on out-of-date science and your own prejudices. Because each time you're only serving to make yourself look even more foolish.

Edited by Hajile
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Doro wrote:

You're making the mistake of thinking I put him down for his disorder, not that I put him down for being a dick and he happens to have a disorder. 

You are putting Celestrata down because she asks to be called a she - you are putting down that behavior.

You brought up issues related to her gender - instead of just talking about her actions as a moderator. You might have other reasons to dislike her, but you're putting down her actions related to her gender identity.

It is not really a big deal. People have different views on people who change genders. People here have different views on this issue, which you can see from this thread.

Edited by nosam9
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http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Causes.aspx

http://www.news-medical.net/health/Causes-of-Gender-Dysphoria.aspx

http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/gdev/gender-dysphoria.pdf

That took literally 30 seconds on Google and were the first three links I found. It is not exactly rocket science to take on board new information. But then if you bothered to do any homework at all you would probably find those precious preconceptions of yours challenged more often than would make you comfortable.

Yup, 3 links that say what I've already said, that gender dysphoria is something that's diagnosed and just the word used to replace disorder. Feel free to read them yourself.

It's not a mental illness.

Exactly. It's a mental disorder. It's a problem in the brain where it's wired incorrectly. It isn't ordered. Hence, disorder.

But feel free to continue making obsolete claims based exclusively on out-of-date science and your own prejudices. Because each time you're only serving to make yourself look like even more foolish.

Sure thing, I'll stick with reality and you stick to relying on the hurt feelings of those with mental disorders.

 

You are putting Celestrata down because she asks to be called a she - you are putting down that behavior.

You brought up issues related to her gender - instead of just talking about her actions as a moderator. You might have other reasons to dislike her, but you're putting down her actions related to her gender identity.

Nosam, I know you struggle with reading comprehension, but just look back on what I said. I didn't bring up his gender, I just said he was a dick to me at the same level of Sapience. Thrabath brought up the gender thing.

And still you confuse disliking him for being a dick and disliking him for his disorder. Let me put it in a way that makes it easier for you: most of us dislike Sapience. Sapience is a fat cunt. But we don't hate him BECAUSE he's fat. We hate him because he's a cunt. Get it?

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fittybolger-

Ho boy. "Willing to cast a larger net?" That's exactly that - speculation on your part. You've got to question your own stance on a subject where you've got to reference completely made-up shifting goalposts in the argument of another. To clarify, I will only "cast a larger net" if the number of Christians who seek to victimize others and deny them equal rights increases. Christians who don't do that (like, you know, the majority of them) are fine.

Quoting scripture at me trying to justify your prejudice and equating gay people with drug addicts does little to convince me you are one of the good ones.

Thequinn -

As I have pointed out, I do not refer to all Christians when using those words. I refer to a very vocal and abusive subset of them that are few in number but loud in volume. I do not pretend that all Christians are like that. But if a Christian drapes him or herself in jingoism, resorts to hyperbole about their rights as a Christian being eroded because others are given equality, rails against a 'godless' president or starts claiming that they have been 'betrayed' by their country, I'm going to go right ahead and call them and their judgmental, reactionary spiel "nutjobs." Because I can differentiate extremists from moderates. Faith is not 'one in, all in.'

I'm disappointed that I need to point the same things out, over and over.

I'm disappointed you still don't get it and never will.  

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Nosam, I know you struggle with reading comprehension, but just look back on what I said. I didn't bring up his gender, I just said he was a dick to me at the same level of Sapience. Thrabath brought up the gender thing.

And still you confuse disliking him for being a dick and disliking him for his disorder. Let me put it in a way that makes it easier for you: most of us dislike Sapience. Sapience is a fat cunt. But we don't hate him BECAUSE he's fat. We hate him because he's a cunt. Get it?

Ok, I believe you. I could have sworn you said something about C.'s gender in this thread, but yeah I believe you that you dislike C. because of the moderation stuff. I never actually thought you disliked C because of the gender issues - I just thought you made fun of her about some of that - but not in a mean way.

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Ok, I believe you. I could have sworn you said something about C.'s gender in this thread, but yeah I believe you that you dislike C. because of the moderation stuff. I never actually thought you disliked C because of the gender issues - I just thought you made fun of her about some of that - but not in a mean way.

zcjic.gif

I have never seen you do that... I'm sorry too.

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Yup, 3 links that say what I've already said, that gender dysphoria is something that's diagnosed and just the word used to replace disorder. Feel free to read them yourself.

Exactly. It's a mental disorder. It's a problem in the brain where it's wired incorrectly. It isn't ordered. Hence, disorder.

Er, no they don't. In these links it is determined to be a biological and medical condition. They use those exact words. The NHS page specifically goes out of its way to repeatedly say it's a medical condition and NOT a mental illness or disorder. I'm baffled how you could read it and conclude that it was saying the opposite.

You've now convinced me that you're just being deliberately obtuse in order to hang on to your prejudices. Thanks for clearing that up.

Edited by Hajile
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Er, no they don't. In these links it is determined to be a biological and medical condition. They use those exact words. The NHS page specifically goes out of its way to repeatedly say it's a medical condition and NOT a mental illness or disorder. I'm baffled how you could read it and conclude that it was saying the opposite.

You've now convinced me that you're just being deliberately obtuse in order to hang on to your prejudices. Thanks for clearing that up.

Because the brain isn't biological any more. _O-

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Because the brain isn't biological any more. _O-

Maybe you wouldn't be saying that in such a smug, self satisfied way if you realized you've just shown me that you don't even understand the difference between mental illness and medical condition.

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