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Infinite Crisis Closing: August 14th, 2015


thordsvin
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Maybe you wouldn't be saying that in such a smug, self satisfied way if you realized you've just shown me that you don't even understand the difference between mental illness and medical condition.

You're right. It's probably a problem with the pancreas. Or how the knee bends. Definitely not a mental disorder.

Also, for your own education: A medical condition is a broad term that includes all diseases, lesions and disorders. While the term medical condition generally includes mental illnesses, in some contexts the term is used specifically to denote any illness, injury, or disease except for mental illnesses.

I've bolded bits for you. You're welcome.

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Physically? No harm to me. Possibly to them, when they go and get mutilated because people are validating their delusion, then realise it hasn't solved their problems. But there's the threat to language. She refers specifically to females. He to males. If we begin using pronouns incorrectly, then there's no reason to even use pronouns at all. If there's nothing to base male or female on any more, anyone can be anything and it opens up a host of other issues.

We're also giving special privileges to one disorder over the others. As has been mentioned, the trans-species, trans-racial, and trans-abled crowds are growing, because society is becoming more 'tolerant' of pandering to delusions. Instead of helping the issue, it's opening it up to even more vulnerable people.

But, there's an even simpler reason for me: it's just not true. It's not about who it hurts or who it benefits, it's about what's true. And that's the case for me with everything.

Yeah, quotes are FUBAR (get out of my head, Fitty).

 

it's not true to you, perhaps.  but it's not about you. if a dude wants to self-identify as a "she" then, in the end...it has nothing to do with you.  you can respect their wishes as a fellow human being or you can rant on a forum and call them delusional.  whatever.

and just out of curiosity, what "special privileges" are being given over what others?

lastly, how exactly do you we "help the issue"...force people to be something that deep down, they know they are not?

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it's not true to you, perhaps.  but it's not about you. if a dude wants to self-identify as a "she" then, in the end...it has nothing to do with you.  you can respect their wishes as a fellow human being or you can rant on a forum and call them delusional.  whatever.

and just out of curiosity, what "special privileges" are being given over what others?

lastly, how exactly do you we "help the issue"...force people to be something that deep down, they know they are not?

If it had nothing to do with me, they wouldn't be bothered about what pronoun I used.

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If it had nothing to do with me, they wouldn't be bothered about what pronoun I used.

if you are sitting alone in your room shouting "that dude is a 'he', not a 'she'" then fine...it's all about you, sweetheart.

i do apologize, however, i used the words "human being" and "respect" in a post about you.

i should know better :)

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if you are sitting alone in your room shouting "that dude is a 'he', not a 'she'" then fine...it's all about you, sweetheart.

i do apologize, however, i used the words "human being" and "respect" in a post about you.

i should know better :)

You're confusing that it's not about me or them. It's about objective fact. A person holding a rock and says it's a tortoise isn't going to get me to try to feed it lettuce. Same goes for Dave in his tutu asking to be referred to as 'her'.

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You're confusing that it's not about me or them. It's about objective fact. A person holding a rock and says it's a tortoise isn't going to get me to try to feed it lettuce. Same goes for Dave in his tutu asking to be referred to as 'her'.

But if that is who Dave is, on the inside, what difference does it make?

Look, I'm not coming from a stance of moral superiority here...even as a proud gay man I've been a bit uncomfortable about this topic, at least initially. I don't go for overly feminine guys (sexually) because I like my men to be...manly. But that is MY issue. I've been raised and conditioned to have a certain outlook on what is male and what is female. But again, that is MY issue.

You and I may be lucky that we were born into the bodies we were "meant to have" but these people don't feel the same way. 

Edited by Papi
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But if that is who Dave is, on the inside, what difference does it make?

Look, I'm not coming from a stance of moral superiority here...even as a proud gay man I've been a bit uncomfortable about this topic, at least initially. I don't go for overly feminine guys (sexually) because I like my men to be...manly. But that is MY issue. I've been raised and conditioned to have a certain outlook on what is male and what is female. But again, that is MY issue.

You and I may be lucky that we were born into the bodies we were "meant to have" but these people don't feel the same way. 

Dave could feel like a quadruple amputated black lion inside, but it wouldn't change anything.

Some do believe that transgenders should be treated as absolutely normal and that it's only right to go along with them. That's fine, I don't mind. But I believe that it's an issue that shouldn't be buried underneath liberal (can't think of a better word, you know like being overly PC for the sake of it) acceptance. Instead of surgery or going along with the delusion, I'd say to teach them how to accept themselves for what they are, not what they claim to be, or attempt to help with medication.

They can dress how they like, think how they like, enjoy whatever they like, I've got nothing to do with it. But it won't change what they physically are. And it's been shown with many that even when they've had surgery, they STILL don't feel the way they want to. Hence, the high rate of suicides in post-ops. It seems to me less of a problem with gender and more of a problem with physical identity as a whole. They don't feel right in their own bodies, and they need help overcoming that, not succumbing to it.

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You're right. It's probably a problem with the pancreas. Or how the knee bends. Definitely not a mental disorder.

Also, for your own education: A medical condition is a broad term that includes all diseases, lesions and disorders. While the term medical condition generally includes mental illnesses, in some contexts the term is used specifically to denote any illness, injury, or disease except for mental illnesses.

I've bolded bits for you. You're welcome.

Erm, I've bolded and underlined where your own quote betrays you and supports what I'm saying. Oops.

For YOUR educatuion:

(By the way, I've taken theses definitions directly from the NHS, the Mayo Clinic and other recognized authorities on the subject, so you're running contrary to some solidly authoritative sources if you try to argue against them.)

Mental illness is about how we think, feel and behave. Mental health problems are more common in certain groups, such as people with poor living conditions, people from persecuted minority groups, homeless people, etc. Mental health problems can develop from difficult life events, such as abuse, stress or bereavement. They typically emerge in adolescence and continue into adulthood. They are situational 'learned' behaviours and have no symptoms beyond the behavioural. Treatment options include counseling, behaviour therapy, psychotherapy. Examples include Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Phobias, Anxiety, Bulimia, Anorexia and Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Medical Conditions are a wider category than the above and can be defined as anything that affects or impairs the physiological function or development of an organism. It demonstrates symptoms or signs, can have either a genetic or biological cause or can be caused by infection, disease or trauma. They are often communicable, or are innate or congenital, i.e. 'born with' the condition. They generally have an adverse effect on a person's wellbeing and health unless treated, and require physical treatment via medication, surgery, physiotherapy or health care. Examples include Cancer, Chickenpox, Eczema, ADHD, Asthma, Sleep Apnoea, Cleft Palates and Haemophilia.

Gender Dysphoria is a medical condition, in that it is innate and genetic. Treatment seems unusual to some people because for a while it was considered a mental illness and therefore behavioural, but now we know more about it and it is known to be a genuine medical condition with congenital causes.

For conditions related to Gender Identity the treatment sometimes involves noticeable outward changes which illicit quite hostile reactions from others, which is unfortunate because part of their recovery process depends upon at least some measure of acceptance from others. It's quite unique in that regard.

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Dave could feel like a quadruple amputated black lion inside, but it wouldn't change anything.

Some do believe that transgenders should be treated as absolutely normal and that it's only right to go along with them. That's fine, I don't mind. But I believe that it's an issue that shouldn't be buried underneath liberal (can't think of a better word, you know like being overly PC for the sake of it) acceptance. Instead of surgery or going along with the delusion, I'd say to teach them how to accept themselves for what they are, not what they claim to be, or attempt to help with medication.

They can dress how they like, think how they like, enjoy whatever they like, I've got nothing to do with it. But it won't change what they physically are. And it's been shown with many that even when they've had surgery, they STILL don't feel the way they want to. Hence, the high rate of suicides in post-ops. It seems to me less of a problem with gender and more of a problem with physical identity as a whole. They don't feel right in their own bodies, and they need help overcoming that, not succumbing to it.

i think if we took a serious look it at, post-ops still struggle because of how society looks at people who make that change.  just because someone makes the change doesn't mean the world will open them with open arms and all is well.  surely, you are not that naive.

again, the word delusional here is quite offensive and i'm not sure why you persist on using it.  and your "teach them how to accept" and "medicate" rhetoric smacks of of the whole pray away the gay, reparative therapy bullshit.

we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Edited by Papi
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Erm, I've bolded and underlined where your own quote betrays you and supports what I'm saying. Oops.

Conveniently missing the part that says 'IN SOME CONTEXTS', compared to mine that says 'GENERALLY'. Good try, though.

 

i think if we took a serious look it at, post-ops still struggle because of how society looks at people who make that change.  just because someone makes the change doesn't mean the world will open them with open arms and all is well.  surely, you are not that naive.

again, the word delusional here is quite offensive and i'm not sure why you persist on using it.  and your "teach them how to accept" and "medicate" rhetoric smacks of of the whole pray away the gay, reparative therapy bullshit.

we'll just have to agree to disagree.

No, I agree that it is possible because of societal reaction. However, I don't think it fully explains it. Especially when you actually find out the problems they have. I can't remember the name of them, but there's this one transgender person that does little webcomics about what it's like for them. And they often describe this little voice in their head that belittles them for how they are. It's an internal thing for them that didn't go away. Obviously, there's a wide spectrum of sufferers, so not all of them would feel the same.

I can't think of a better word than delusion. They believe something that isn't the case. When they did studies on the brain activity of transgenders, they did say that they had resemblances to the opposite gender, but they weren't the same. Just a leaning towards it. And they don't have the hormonal make up of their opposite gender either, so it really is them believing something that isn't the case. If there's a kinder word for delusion, let me know. I don't think there is, though.

When I mean teach them how to accept themselves, I mean accept how you are physically but do what you like otherwise. Medication can help some deal with their anxiety and stress which can help them accept who they are more so than feeling overwhelmed by it. It's a different situation to gays, where they inadvertently find themselves attracted to the same sex but don't need to change to accommodate that. A bit of bumming is incredibly different to surgical mutilation for the sake of some misplaced sense of belonging.

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Conveniently missing the part that says 'IN SOME CONTEXTS', compared to mine that says 'GENERALLY'. Good try, though.

 

No, I agree that it is possible because of societal reaction. However, I don't think it fully explains it. Especially when you actually find out the problems they have. I can't remember the name of them, but there's this one transgender person that does little webcomics about what it's like for them. And they often describe this little voice in their head that belittles them for how they are. It's an internal thing for them that didn't go away. Obviously, there's a wide spectrum of sufferers, so not all of them would feel the same.

I can't think of a better word than delusion. They believe something that isn't the case. When they did studies on the brain activity of transgenders, they did say that they had resemblances to the opposite gender, but they weren't the same. Just a leaning towards it. And they don't have the hormonal make up of their opposite gender either, so it really is them believing something that isn't the case. If there's a kinder word for delusion, let me know. I don't think there is, though.

When I mean teach them how to accept themselves, I mean accept how you are physically but do what you like otherwise. Medication can help some deal with their anxiety and stress which can help them accept who they are more so than feeling overwhelmed by it. It's a different situation to gays, where they inadvertently find themselves attracted to the same sex but don't need to change to accommodate that. A bit of bumming is incredibly different to surgical mutilation for the sake of some misplaced sense of belonging.

you lost me with this statement "misplaced sense of belonging".  how easy it is for you and i to casually use those type of words.

and that internal voice in the transgender person's head...who do you think that is?  society? their parents?? their church? again, i imagine getting the op doesn't take away years of abuse, pain, misunderstanding and hatred.  that shit stays with you.  i'd say it takes a strong person to come out of that completely unscathed and 100% happy about who they are and their place in the world.

when i think about it, i'm grateful that i know who i am and what i am and i'm in the right body for it lol

i couldn't imagine being in their shoes, i don't know if i would be strong enough to get through that if i'm honest.

 

Edited by Papi
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Medical professionals saying it is not a mental illness kind of does take away the argument that it is a mental illness.

*disorder, not illness.

But what about medical professionals saying it is?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/gender-identity-disorder (referring to it as GID, as they did before the uproar about transgender hurt feelings)

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/former-johns-hopkins-head-psychiatrist-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solutio (former head shrink of John Hopkins Hospital talking about it)

http://www.psychiatry.org/practice/dsm (the DSM is the standard for classification of mental disorders and lists 'gender dysphoria', which is just the new name for gender identity disorder)

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Dave could feel like a quadruple amputated black lion inside, but it wouldn't change anything.

Some do believe that transgenders should be treated as absolutely normal and that it's only right to go along with them. That's fine, I don't mind. But I believe that it's an issue that shouldn't be buried underneath liberal (can't think of a better word, you know like being overly PC for the sake of it) acceptance. Instead of surgery or going along with the delusion, I'd say to teach them how to accept themselves for what they are, not what they claim to be, or attempt to help with medication.

They can dress how they like, think how they like, enjoy whatever they like, I've got nothing to do with it. But it won't change what they physically are. And it's been shown with many that even when they've had surgery, they STILL don't feel the way they want to. Hence, the high rate of suicides in post-ops. It seems to me less of a problem with gender and more of a problem with physical identity as a whole. They don't feel right in their own bodies, and they need help overcoming that, not succumbing to it.

There is one aspect of this discussion that hasn't been addressed here and is really the issue that I find truly most dangerous as far as the "What is it to you? Accept them!" argument goes and that is... children.

An adult wanting to snip off their bit and pieces... well I will not agree with it or support it and wish my taxes didn't pay for the surgery and will not simply accept them so they feel better... not going to happen. (is such thinking a hate crime? If not now it soon will be I'd wager)

But supporting children in this delusion? That becomes a whole new level of visceral for me. Girls will often go through a tomboy stage and boys may put on a dress and lipstick but they grow out of it... today the movement wants such child behavior supported rather than discouraged. God help our kids... Let the indoctrination machine go into overdrive.

I have read articles that made my blood boil but didn't bookmark them unfortunately. So I did a Google search on "Transgender youth accept" and there is a MASSIVE result. I can't find the original articles that set me off but here is one where an 8 year old boy remembers (brainwashed by PC parents?) identifying as a girl at age 2... 2 years old, for the love of God, lets celebrate this courageous boy!

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Local-Transgender-Girl-8-Everyone-Should-Be-Who-They-Are-316053861.html

That's right folks... we should just accept these people for who they are... no harm in that... don't be so mean!

Edit: My search parameters were less than stellar but here is another link.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/when-do-i-get-to-be-a-boy-transgender-youth-cant-remember-a-time-when-he-was-happy-to-be-a-girl

Edited by fittybolger
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*disorder, not illness.

But what about medical professionals saying it is?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/gender-identity-disorder (referring to it as GID, as they did before the uproar about transgender hurt feelings)

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/former-johns-hopkins-head-psychiatrist-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solutio (former head shrink of John Hopkins Hospital talking about it)

http://www.psychiatry.org/practice/dsm (the DSM is the standard for classification of mental disorders and lists 'gender dysphoria', which is just the new name for gender identity disorder)

What is the difference between disorder and illness.  As far as I can see there isnt one.  From what I can see the DSM does not mention mental illness at all, but rather only uses the term mental disorder.

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What is the difference between disorder and illness.  As far as I can see there isnt one.  From what I can see the DSM does not mention mental illness at all, but rather only uses the term mental disorder.

It's something like all illnesses are disorders, but not all disorders are illnesses. I think it was something to do with illnesses can be temporary but disorders can't. I can't really remember, though.

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Conveniently missing the part that says 'IN SOME CONTEXTS', compared to mine that says 'GENERALLY'. Good try, though.

----

https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/gender-identity-disorder (referring to it as GID, as they did before the uproar about transgender hurt feelings)

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/former-johns-hopkins-head-psychiatrist-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solutio (former head shrink of John Hopkins Hospital talking about it)

http://www.psychiatry.org/practice/dsm (the DSM is the standard for classification of mental disorders and lists 'gender dysphoria', which is just the new name for gender identity disorder)

Ooh, nice attempt at handwaving there. Good try though.

My sources are internationally renowned as authorities in the fields of medicine and psychology. Your "sources" are bunk:

Psychology Today is not a scientific journal. Their standards are notoriously poor in the field and have been frequently known to publish questionable material, so referencing them is meaningless. They are a pop science magazine and their material is often inaccurate or out of date.

That particular head shrink of John Hopkins is named Paul McHugh, whose research has repeatedly been labelled problematic and his conclusions deemed highly questionable by his peers. He has been pretty extensively discredited in many areas including post-traumatic stress disorder, sexual abuse, transvestism, homosexuality and dissociative identity disorder. He also happens to be a member of several right-wing conservative think tanks, and has known and acknowledged biases in that direction.

The American Psychiatric Association's latest document is the DSM-5, which is already almost three years out of date, having been approved in December 2012. It has also been highly controversial in recent years, which has led to it becoming the subject of at least two congressional investigations regarding a number of conflicts of interest detected, especially in the fields of gender and autism related syndromes. It has also faced repeated criticism on an international level for ignoring major studies done in countries outside North America.

That being said, even the APA does not agree with your belief that the best treatment for sufferers of Gender Dysphoria is behaviour modification, and no accredited source exists that supports your assertions that it is healthier to refuse to "pander to their delusions" than to engage and accept them. Not a single one. In fact the APA itself supports the opposite - engagement and acceptance, specifically determining that using the gender pronouns that the patient prefers is the healthy option and aids recovery and treatment.

So, then - your beliefs are based on discredited bunk and obsolete science and nobody agrees with your assertions regarding treatment. Your implication that ridicule, belittlement and deliberately using incorrect gender pronouns is somehow in the sufferer's best interests is quite literally nonsense. It is nothing more than an attempt to (rather badly) disguise your prejudice and bullying as kindness, to make you feel better about the way you treat others.

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